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On September 21 2021 12:45 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 11:09 Salazarz wrote:
The US needs Europe way more than Europe needs the US, especially if the US continues to drum up its conflict with China. The way things are going, it's not unthinkable to see US turning pretty much the entire world against them in the coming years, meanwhile EU would be perfectly fine with increasing their economic cooperation with Russia and China to make up whatever deficits they have from the US, especially as belt & road picks up steam.
China's 'perspective on personal liberties' are absolutely irrelevant for Europe's future, since unlike the US, China does not insist on exporting their own 'values' all over the world. I think you're totally misjudging China's ambitions. They will not be satisfied until they have all of Asia minimum. Are you familiar with Chinese nationalism? Chinese racial superiority complex regarding Koreans and Japanese? China isn't in a position to take over those countries but everyone involved knows it is 1000% their goal. China will never be satisfied with just China. One thing to keep in mind is the culture of the US compared to the culture of China. The average American has zero desire to ultimately take over Canada or Mexico. The average Chinese citizen is totally insanely nationalist. Even among educated folks. Oregon State University had a big problem with Chinese international students being openly aggressive towards TW/HK students. The level of conquering ambition in China is incomparable to the US. I have no idea how this dynamic is with Russia. It isn't clear to me if the average Russian wants to retake the USSR or whatever. I have zero perspective on that. But as it is extremely relevant to point out the 100 year ambitions of the US vs China are totally different. China's ambitions are chilling and they are definitely the greatest threat to the world. As for your other point, I think its fair to just say both EU and US benefit a great deal from each other. Neither would ever in a million years let that relationship sour. Married couples fight. So do allies. France has a craaaazy level of pride. Of course they will cry about this. It will pass. None of this is an actual big deal IMO.
This is such a ridiculous make-believe take, I don't even know how to address it. You've just discounted an entire fucking continent as subservient dicksuckers a couple comments ago, and now you're talking about insane Chinese nationalism? Come on. It's actually incredible how your typical American is so eager to discuss the 'open aggression' and 'nationalism' and 'dangerous ambitions' of whatever your current enemy is while remaining entirely oblivious to what your own country does and how others might see you.
You're right that the level of conquering ambition in China is incomparable to the US -- I mean, look at the number of conflicts each of those countries engaged in during the last 100 years, the number of regime changes carried out, the amount of crippling economic sanctions pressed against other nations? Clearly, it is indeed incomparable.
You're also correct that both EU and US benefit a great deal from each other. As for your next part of that paragraph though, that's where it gets murky. US is not acting like a dependable partner in a mutually-beneficial relationship. Married couples fight, yes; but divorcing a selfish narcissist at some point stops being a question and becomes a necessity no matter the financial repercussions of such a move.
As much as the prospect of a serious conflict between China & Western powers is scary, I am honestly looking forward to a multi-polar world order. In my opinion, failures of the US as a world leading superpower in the decades following the cold war are obvious, and real cooperation on global scale can only progress from here once the unipolar world order is done away with entirely. If in the following 10-20 years EU manages to stand on its own, and China consolidates sufficiently to become a credible contestant to the US super power status, the entire world will benefit -- including the US itself.
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On September 21 2021 13:33 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 12:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2021 11:09 Salazarz wrote:
The US needs Europe way more than Europe needs the US, especially if the US continues to drum up its conflict with China. The way things are going, it's not unthinkable to see US turning pretty much the entire world against them in the coming years, meanwhile EU would be perfectly fine with increasing their economic cooperation with Russia and China to make up whatever deficits they have from the US, especially as belt & road picks up steam.
China's 'perspective on personal liberties' are absolutely irrelevant for Europe's future, since unlike the US, China does not insist on exporting their own 'values' all over the world. I think you're totally misjudging China's ambitions. They will not be satisfied until they have all of Asia minimum. Are you familiar with Chinese nationalism? Chinese racial superiority complex regarding Koreans and Japanese? China isn't in a position to take over those countries but everyone involved knows it is 1000% their goal. China will never be satisfied with just China. One thing to keep in mind is the culture of the US compared to the culture of China. The average American has zero desire to ultimately take over Canada or Mexico. The average Chinese citizen is totally insanely nationalist. Even among educated folks. Oregon State University had a big problem with Chinese international students being openly aggressive towards TW/HK students. The level of conquering ambition in China is incomparable to the US. I have no idea how this dynamic is with Russia. It isn't clear to me if the average Russian wants to retake the USSR or whatever. I have zero perspective on that. But as it is extremely relevant to point out the 100 year ambitions of the US vs China are totally different. China's ambitions are chilling and they are definitely the greatest threat to the world. As for your other point, I think its fair to just say both EU and US benefit a great deal from each other. Neither would ever in a million years let that relationship sour. Married couples fight. So do allies. France has a craaaazy level of pride. Of course they will cry about this. It will pass. None of this is an actual big deal IMO. This is such a ridiculous make-believe take, I don't even know how to address it. You've just discounted an entire fucking continent as subservient dicksuckers a couple comments ago, and now you're talking about insane Chinese nationalism? Come on. It's actually incredible how your typical American is so eager to discuss the 'open aggression' and 'nationalism' and 'dangerous ambitions' of whatever your current enemy is while remaining entirely oblivious to what your own country does and how others might see you.
The only way someone thinks what you are typing is if you don't have experience with it. There's nothing I can do to convince you of its existence if you aren't aware of it or haven't encountered it. You're just one person, I'm not bothered by you not being convinced. I just wanted to explain why I believe what I believe. Chinese nationalism dwarfs any other country, even the US and France, who are generally regarded as the two distasteful ones. I hope you never encounter what I described. It is really sad and scary.
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On September 21 2021 13:33 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 12:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2021 11:09 Salazarz wrote:
The US needs Europe way more than Europe needs the US, especially if the US continues to drum up its conflict with China. The way things are going, it's not unthinkable to see US turning pretty much the entire world against them in the coming years, meanwhile EU would be perfectly fine with increasing their economic cooperation with Russia and China to make up whatever deficits they have from the US, especially as belt & road picks up steam.
China's 'perspective on personal liberties' are absolutely irrelevant for Europe's future, since unlike the US, China does not insist on exporting their own 'values' all over the world. I think you're totally misjudging China's ambitions. They will not be satisfied until they have all of Asia minimum. Are you familiar with Chinese nationalism? Chinese racial superiority complex regarding Koreans and Japanese? China isn't in a position to take over those countries but everyone involved knows it is 1000% their goal. China will never be satisfied with just China. One thing to keep in mind is the culture of the US compared to the culture of China. The average American has zero desire to ultimately take over Canada or Mexico. The average Chinese citizen is totally insanely nationalist. Even among educated folks. Oregon State University had a big problem with Chinese international students being openly aggressive towards TW/HK students. The level of conquering ambition in China is incomparable to the US. I have no idea how this dynamic is with Russia. It isn't clear to me if the average Russian wants to retake the USSR or whatever. I have zero perspective on that. But as it is extremely relevant to point out the 100 year ambitions of the US vs China are totally different. China's ambitions are chilling and they are definitely the greatest threat to the world. As for your other point, I think its fair to just say both EU and US benefit a great deal from each other. Neither would ever in a million years let that relationship sour. Married couples fight. So do allies. France has a craaaazy level of pride. Of course they will cry about this. It will pass. None of this is an actual big deal IMO. This is such a ridiculous make-believe take, I don't even know how to address it. You've just discounted an entire fucking continent as subservient dicksuckers a couple comments ago, and now you're talking about insane Chinese nationalism? Come on. It's actually incredible how your typical American is so eager to discuss the 'open aggression' and 'nationalism' and 'dangerous ambitions' of whatever your current enemy is while remaining entirely oblivious to what your own country does and how others might see you. You're right that the level of conquering ambition in China is incomparable to the US -- I mean, look at the number of conflicts each of those countries engaged in during the last 100 years, the number of regime changes carried out, the amount of crippling economic sanctions pressed against other nations? Clearly, it is indeed incomparable. You're also correct that both EU and US benefit a great deal from each other. As for your next part of that paragraph though, that's where it gets murky. US is not acting like a dependable partner in a mutually-beneficial relationship. Married couples fight, yes; but divorcing a selfish narcissist at some point stops being a question and becomes a necessity no matter the financial repercussions of such a move. As much as the prospect of a serious conflict between China & Western powers is scary, I am honestly looking forward to a multi-polar world order. In my opinion, failures of the US as a world leading superpower in the decades following the cold war are obvious, and real cooperation on global scale can only progress from here once the unipolar world order is done away with entirely. If in the following 10-20 years EU manages to stand on its own, and China consolidates sufficiently to become a credible contestant to the US super power status, the entire world will benefit -- including the US itself.
I'm glad you took the time to write that all out and fully agree. Even more poignant when we consider Mohdoo speaks from the ostensible US left.
We're so indoctrinated with it in the US that the US actively bombing ~half a dozen countries around the world at any given time for decades (the entire lives of people here) barely registers with most Americans. Even if China were as overtly ambitious in establishing a global hegemony (often through coups, war, and electoral interference) as the US has openly pursued since WWII, I'd have no doubt their citizens wouldn't be a fraction as oblivious to it.
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As I’ve said before, if I had a button that signed over the entire political and military power of the US to Canada, Norway or New Zealand, I’d slam that button so fast I’d break my wrist. Dissolve the entire country and make the title USA illegal for all I care. The idea of me being nationalist is incredibly silly. I truly don’t think I’m capable of nationalism. The idea of pride in a group makes me puke. I’m not capable of that kind of pride and I’ve posted extensively about how I view it as a sign of internal weakness. No one who is strong on their own is nationalist. It’s a crutch for being a broken person and not having enough to be proud of. I just see the US as the best option against Russia and China until the EU gets it’s shit together.
After how close the EU got to letting Huawei build their internet infrastructure, I lost a lot of confidence in the EU. It appears to be USA or nothing for the foreseeable future.
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I‘ve always regarded China as more isolationist in nature. They don‘t like that Taiwan competes with them and probably has strategic uses against them. Tibet was an exception to the rule. It‘s laughable to claim that they want all of Asia. More likely that they pursue something akin to the Monroe doctrine.
I‘d also prefer a multipolar world. Uncontested power is always abused and opposition requires compromises, or military threats depending on what your biggest strength is. War between superpowers is always going to be MAD, so if anything it‘d end up being a covert war through other means.
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On September 21 2021 15:01 Vivax wrote:
I‘ve always regarded China as more isolationist in nature. They don‘t like that Taiwan competes with them and probably has strategic uses against them. Tibet was an exception to the rule. It‘s laughable to claim that they want all of Asia. More likely that they pursue something akin to the Monroe doctrine.
I‘d also prefer a multipolar world. Uncontested power is always abused and opposition requires compromises, or military threats depending on what your biggest strength is. War between superpowers is always going to be MAD, so if anything it‘d end up being a covert war through other means.
What happened in Tibet was never an exception to the rule. Right now they are embroiled in a little war with India over control of Ladakh, which is one of the 5 fingers of Tibet according to Mao. So that's Tibet and one finger. Just Nepal, Bhutan and another few bites of India to go. Regarding Taiwan, China pursues publicly and openly their One China policy, and they aren't going to back down until Taiwan is subjugated.
Then there's the whole South China Sea deal, where China claims pretty much all of it, including a lot Vietnam and the Philippines islands and coastal waters, but stretching all the way to Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia.
The East China Sea has a bunch of disputes with Korea and Japan. And I'm pretty sure China claims all of Mongolia is a province of theirs too, but these are kinda on the back burner in comparison to the Himalayas and Taiwan for now.
So leave China to do their thing freely and there will absolutely be a big war in East Asia, because India isn't going to take all that shit lying down quietly.
Now whether or not the EU should care about any of that when considering whether China or the US is a better ally is another story entirely. Pretty sure we're just hoping we can thread the needle and exert enough soft power over China to stop them from *actually* going to war. And I agree that the US's imperialism is hardly any better. Sure they don't want to annex Canada or Mexico, but they have installed enough puppets over the last 70 years that the US is more like an empire than a country.
Historically and culturally the EU is obviously closer to the US than China, but how much does that matter?
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A couple of my friends spent a few years (maybe non-consecutively) living in China, and whenever China comes up in political discussion they tell me I am not taking Chinese nationalism and internal propaganda seriously enough.
I've been writing this long post about the various territory China asserts a claim to, but Acrofales wrote the same post faster and probably better. I add on to what they wrote that China gaining control of pretty much any of that territory almost certainly means terrible things for the people living there.
Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that the US and China have identical imperialistic ambitions, I'd consider China worse. The US has engaged in imperialism, and China has looked at that and decided it wants that for itself. But the US might internally decide to stop doing terrible things outside of its borders because of internal resistance to those actions. It's not likely, given the miserable state of American politics, but it's possible. China will not even allow the idea that it's imperialistic behaviors are bad to be spoken of internally, and will probably manage to have most of it's citizens passionately support them in the same way that they are passionate about Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Tibet.
Further, similarly to how the US attempts to export what it considers the good parts of its culture, such as democracy and free speech - usually to terrible results - China wants to export its culture of dictatorship and quashing dissent. Long term with the belt and road initiative, I'd expect that at some point in the future China attempts for pressure countries that it helped into at least suppressing internal criticism of China and Chinese policies, such as their treatment of the Uighurs.
On September 21 2021 15:01 Vivax wrote:I‘ve always regarded China as more isolationist in nature. They don‘t like that Taiwan competes with them and probably has strategic uses against them. Tibet was an exception to the rule. It‘s laughable to claim that they want all of Asia. More likely that they pursue something akin to the Monroe doctrine. This is just wrong. China's stance on territory is that any territory that ever belonged to China still belongs to China.
China doesn't even acknowledge the existence of an independent Taiwan. They call it Chinese Taipai and they strongly leverage their economic and political power to keep people from using the name Taiwan. For example, League of Legends casters do not refer to teams from Taiwan as being from Taiwan.
On September 21 2021 15:01 Vivax wrote:I‘d also prefer a multipolar world. Uncontested power is always abused and opposition requires compromises, or military threats depending on what your biggest strength is. War between superpowers is always going to be MAD, so if anything it‘d end up being a covert war through other means. I'd love a multipolar world, and have been hoping for years that the EU would become a power that be able to push back against the US. China is just fucking awful, though. Chinese treatment of the Uighur minority met functionally no consequences internationally, so I'd expect to see them slowly escalate that to further non-conforming demographics.
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On September 21 2021 13:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 13:33 Salazarz wrote:On September 21 2021 12:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2021 11:09 Salazarz wrote:
The US needs Europe way more than Europe needs the US, especially if the US continues to drum up its conflict with China. The way things are going, it's not unthinkable to see US turning pretty much the entire world against them in the coming years, meanwhile EU would be perfectly fine with increasing their economic cooperation with Russia and China to make up whatever deficits they have from the US, especially as belt & road picks up steam.
China's 'perspective on personal liberties' are absolutely irrelevant for Europe's future, since unlike the US, China does not insist on exporting their own 'values' all over the world. I think you're totally misjudging China's ambitions. They will not be satisfied until they have all of Asia minimum. Are you familiar with Chinese nationalism? Chinese racial superiority complex regarding Koreans and Japanese? China isn't in a position to take over those countries but everyone involved knows it is 1000% their goal. China will never be satisfied with just China. One thing to keep in mind is the culture of the US compared to the culture of China. The average American has zero desire to ultimately take over Canada or Mexico. The average Chinese citizen is totally insanely nationalist. Even among educated folks. Oregon State University had a big problem with Chinese international students being openly aggressive towards TW/HK students. The level of conquering ambition in China is incomparable to the US. I have no idea how this dynamic is with Russia. It isn't clear to me if the average Russian wants to retake the USSR or whatever. I have zero perspective on that. But as it is extremely relevant to point out the 100 year ambitions of the US vs China are totally different. China's ambitions are chilling and they are definitely the greatest threat to the world. As for your other point, I think its fair to just say both EU and US benefit a great deal from each other. Neither would ever in a million years let that relationship sour. Married couples fight. So do allies. France has a craaaazy level of pride. Of course they will cry about this. It will pass. None of this is an actual big deal IMO. This is such a ridiculous make-believe take, I don't even know how to address it. You've just discounted an entire fucking continent as subservient dicksuckers a couple comments ago, and now you're talking about insane Chinese nationalism? Come on. It's actually incredible how your typical American is so eager to discuss the 'open aggression' and 'nationalism' and 'dangerous ambitions' of whatever your current enemy is while remaining entirely oblivious to what your own country does and how others might see you. The only way someone thinks what you are typing is if you don't have experience with it. There's nothing I can do to convince you of its existence if you aren't aware of it or haven't encountered it. You're just one person, I'm not bothered by you not being convinced. I just wanted to explain why I believe what I believe. Chinese nationalism dwarfs any other country, even the US and France, who are generally regarded as the two distasteful ones. I hope you never encounter what I described. It is really sad and scary.
Don't have experience with it? I've been living in East Asia for the past 10+ years, I run an international business of my own and travel routinely between all of the 'hot spots' of Asia -- our offices are in Seoul, Taipei, Shenzhen, and Singapore, with clients pretty much all over Asia as well as West Coast US. I have not met a single Chinese person who actually believed in any of the ridiculous 'Chinese Manifest Destiny' nonsense you're talking about, and I've met plenty of Chinese people. China does not have any 'territorial disputes' with Korea; the only 'territorial disputes' they have with Japan are over some worthless islands that Japan is claiming, similar to Japan's row over Dokdo, Sakhalin, and half a dozen other island claims. Mao-era 'five fingers' bullshit nobody cares about at this point. Even IF they actually wound up taking over Nepal and Bhutan (and that's a massive fucking if), that still wouldn't be anywhere close to matching the amount of suffering and invasions that the US has caused in the last few decades. Their claims in South China Sea have nothing to do with the asinine fairy tales of wanting to conquer Vietnam or Philippines, it's entirely about securing maritime resources and shipping routes. Annoying for their neighbors, perhaps, but hardly world-ending, and given the US' propensity for sea-based provocations, hardly inexcusable.
You're painting all these apocalyptic scenarios of Chinese world domination, but none of them make sense. It's the same stories as Putin's supposed desire to conquer Sweden and Latvia or Kim Jong Un's quest to turn California into a nuclear inferno -- it's just entirely implausible and unwanted by anyone aside from a handful of nutcases who would never survive at the top of a political pyramid anywhere ever.
Think about it for a second. What does China stand to gain from invading Vietnam? Like, literally what would be the point of that? It's just such a dumb idea in 21st century. Call CCP what you want, but they aren't idiots, and they don't do evil shit just for the sake of being evil.
Besides, all this conjecture about China taking over the world is ignoring the most important point I'm trying to make here. Moving towards a multipolar world isn't an invitation to turn international politics into a 'might makes right' free for all. If anything, having more equitable nations on top of the world would lead to more credible international law and more respect for the said international law. As it stands, the US routinely flaunts any and all international agreements whenever it suits their interests -- and now that China is becoming something bigger than a regional power, they're starting to ask, why can't we do the same? For international law to matter, everyone needs to abide by the same rules, and the US losing its status as sole super power leading to such an outcome is a far more realistic scenario than China randomly deciding to send troops into Okinawa or whatever wild bullshit some of you seem to think will happen the moment Uncle Sam is forced to take a step back.
After how close the EU got to letting Huawei build their internet infrastructure, I lost a lot of confidence in the EU. It appears to be USA or nothing for the foreseeable future.
What exactly is the problem with Huawei building internet infrastructure in the EU? To this date, none of the accusations about supposed backdoors and spying from Huawei have been proven, never mind that to a EU citizen, CIA spying is hardly better than CCP spying.
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Norway28685 Posts
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Yeah, that'd more believable if China wasn't engaged, for the past 40years, in organs harvesting from minorities to fuel their hospitals.
That and a couple of cultural genocide.
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On September 21 2021 17:51 Erasme wrote:
Yeah, that'd more believable if China wasn't engaged, for the past 40years, in organs harvesting from minorities to fuel their hospitals.
That and a couple of cultural genocide.
Ah yes, Falun Gong says their members are being harvested for organs and so we can conclude that the only thing stopping China from unleashing their armies upon Vietnam and South Korea are the noble US marines keeping a watchful vigil over the borders.
Come the fuck on.
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On September 21 2021 17:56 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 17:51 Erasme wrote:
Yeah, that'd more believable if China wasn't engaged, for the past 40years, in organs harvesting from minorities to fuel their hospitals.
That and a couple of cultural genocide. Ah yes, Falun Gong says their members are being harvested for organs and so we can conclude that the only thing stopping China from unleashing their armies upon Vietnam and South Korea are the noble US marines keeping a watchful vigil over the borders. Come the fuck on.
The international community found the same thing though. It's weird how people see your actions differently once you start harvesting organs and erasing cultures. Maybe you can overlook that kind of thing.
Oh, I forgot about the systematic raping/sterilizing/forced marriage of women so that the han culture can be spread to those troublesome minorities. Fun stuff all around from a totally non threatening country guys.
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On September 21 2021 18:02 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 17:56 Salazarz wrote:On September 21 2021 17:51 Erasme wrote:
Yeah, that'd more believable if China wasn't engaged, for the past 40years, in organs harvesting from minorities to fuel their hospitals.
That and a couple of cultural genocide. Ah yes, Falun Gong says their members are being harvested for organs and so we can conclude that the only thing stopping China from unleashing their armies upon Vietnam and South Korea are the noble US marines keeping a watchful vigil over the borders. Come the fuck on. The international community found the same thing though. It's weird how people see your actions differently once you start harvesting organs and erasing cultures. Maybe you can overlook that kind of thing.
The same 'international community' that found WMDs in Iraq? The same 'international community' that decided war on terror would be a good idea? The same 'international community' that thought killing Gaddafi is a good plan? Yeah, sure. If that 'international community' says China is an aggressive, imperialist, culture-erasing evil empire, we better trust their judgment on that.
Sarcasm aside, I have not heard of any state-sanctioned, targeted organ-harvesting programs in China. Local incidents of shitheads doing it to make cash on the side do happen, and the shitheads in question are usually prosecuted quite harshly. If you can show me concrete evidence of anything beyond that, we can have a conversation about it, although maybe it's better left for another thread -- feel free to link me a discussion on the topic if you'd like to start one.
Same goes for erasing cultures. If you're talking about supposed Uighur genocide, there's basically nothing beyond tales of Adrian Zenz and his cronies, and he is a fucking lunatic and a con-artist. Again, if you'd like to discuss why you believe it's real and a serious issue, we can discuss that in a different thread.
Bottomline though, neither of these things are relevant to the points I'm making. Even if entirely and completely true, what China does inside its borders is, first and foremost, an issue of China; just like police brutality and privatized, for-profit prisons in the US are, at the end of the day, an issue of the US. If their population is content living under those circumstances, that's up to them. Personally, I find drone strikes slaughtering civilians in foreign countries or sponsoring regime change of anyone deemed unfit for your state's interests a far bigger threat to 'world peace and prosperity' than whatever China is being accused of. And either way, I firmly believe that any country that is allowed to become a part of the global community and isn't antagonized the way places like Iran or North Korea are will eventually liberalize and adapt reasonable human rights. We saw it in places like South Korea, Taiwan, even the Gulf States to an extent. In my opinion, China is following a similar trajectory. They're already a far more democratic and lawful country than they were a mere generation ago. As folks gain more and more financial security and 'creature comforts', they will in turn start demanding more and more political influence and liberties. It's the natural course of every developing nation. And even if it wasn't... whatever internal issues they have, are in no way indicative of what their foreign policy might be in future. Claiming they're an aggressive expansionist empire based on their supposed treatment of minorities within their own borders is quite the stretch.
edit: and as far as overlooking things goes... the US has literally just killed a bunch of kids with an unnecessary drone strike, tried to cover it up, then said well oopsie but it was 'a righteous strike' anyway when journalists kept digging and showed the truth. Or you know, the entire war in Iraq, you okay with overlooking that, yeah? Because we need to stand united against the threat of China, right?
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Northern Ireland25630 Posts
On September 21 2021 16:57 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 13:39 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2021 13:33 Salazarz wrote:On September 21 2021 12:45 Mohdoo wrote:On September 21 2021 11:09 Salazarz wrote:
The US needs Europe way more than Europe needs the US, especially if the US continues to drum up its conflict with China. The way things are going, it's not unthinkable to see US turning pretty much the entire world against them in the coming years, meanwhile EU would be perfectly fine with increasing their economic cooperation with Russia and China to make up whatever deficits they have from the US, especially as belt & road picks up steam.
China's 'perspective on personal liberties' are absolutely irrelevant for Europe's future, since unlike the US, China does not insist on exporting their own 'values' all over the world. I think you're totally misjudging China's ambitions. They will not be satisfied until they have all of Asia minimum. Are you familiar with Chinese nationalism? Chinese racial superiority complex regarding Koreans and Japanese? China isn't in a position to take over those countries but everyone involved knows it is 1000% their goal. China will never be satisfied with just China. One thing to keep in mind is the culture of the US compared to the culture of China. The average American has zero desire to ultimately take over Canada or Mexico. The average Chinese citizen is totally insanely nationalist. Even among educated folks. Oregon State University had a big problem with Chinese international students being openly aggressive towards TW/HK students. The level of conquering ambition in China is incomparable to the US. I have no idea how this dynamic is with Russia. It isn't clear to me if the average Russian wants to retake the USSR or whatever. I have zero perspective on that. But as it is extremely relevant to point out the 100 year ambitions of the US vs China are totally different. China's ambitions are chilling and they are definitely the greatest threat to the world. As for your other point, I think its fair to just say both EU and US benefit a great deal from each other. Neither would ever in a million years let that relationship sour. Married couples fight. So do allies. France has a craaaazy level of pride. Of course they will cry about this. It will pass. None of this is an actual big deal IMO. This is such a ridiculous make-believe take, I don't even know how to address it. You've just discounted an entire fucking continent as subservient dicksuckers a couple comments ago, and now you're talking about insane Chinese nationalism? Come on. It's actually incredible how your typical American is so eager to discuss the 'open aggression' and 'nationalism' and 'dangerous ambitions' of whatever your current enemy is while remaining entirely oblivious to what your own country does and how others might see you. The only way someone thinks what you are typing is if you don't have experience with it. There's nothing I can do to convince you of its existence if you aren't aware of it or haven't encountered it. You're just one person, I'm not bothered by you not being convinced. I just wanted to explain why I believe what I believe. Chinese nationalism dwarfs any other country, even the US and France, who are generally regarded as the two distasteful ones. I hope you never encounter what I described. It is really sad and scary. Don't have experience with it? I've been living in East Asia for the past 10+ years, I run an international business of my own and travel routinely between all of the 'hot spots' of Asia -- our offices are in Seoul, Taipei, Shenzhen, and Singapore, with clients pretty much all over Asia as well as West Coast US. I have not met a single Chinese person who actually believed in any of the ridiculous 'Chinese Manifest Destiny' nonsense you're talking about, and I've met plenty of Chinese people. China does not have any 'territorial disputes' with Korea; the only 'territorial disputes' they have with Japan are over some worthless islands that Japan is claiming, similar to Japan's row over Dokdo, Sakhalin, and half a dozen other island claims. Mao-era 'five fingers' bullshit nobody cares about at this point. Even IF they actually wound up taking over Nepal and Bhutan (and that's a massive fucking if), that still wouldn't be anywhere close to matching the amount of suffering and invasions that the US has caused in the last few decades. Their claims in South China Sea have nothing to do with the asinine fairy tales of wanting to conquer Vietnam or Philippines, it's entirely about securing maritime resources and shipping routes. Annoying for their neighbors, perhaps, but hardly world-ending, and given the US' propensity for sea-based provocations, hardly inexcusable. You're painting all these apocalyptic scenarios of Chinese world domination, but none of them make sense. It's the same stories as Putin's supposed desire to conquer Sweden and Latvia or Kim Jong Un's quest to turn California into a nuclear inferno -- it's just entirely implausible and unwanted by anyone aside from a handful of nutcases who would never survive at the top of a political pyramid anywhere ever. Think about it for a second. What does China stand to gain from invading Vietnam? Like, literally what would be the point of that? It's just such a dumb idea in 21st century. Call CCP what you want, but they aren't idiots, and they don't do evil shit just for the sake of being evil. Besides, all this conjecture about China taking over the world is ignoring the most important point I'm trying to make here. Moving towards a multipolar world isn't an invitation to turn international politics into a 'might makes right' free for all. If anything, having more equitable nations on top of the world would lead to more credible international law and more respect for the said international law. As it stands, the US routinely flaunts any and all international agreements whenever it suits their interests -- and now that China is becoming something bigger than a regional power, they're starting to ask, why can't we do the same? For international law to matter, everyone needs to abide by the same rules, and the US losing its status as sole super power leading to such an outcome is a far more realistic scenario than China randomly deciding to send troops into Okinawa or whatever wild bullshit some of you seem to think will happen the moment Uncle Sam is forced to take a step back. Show nested quote +After how close the EU got to letting Huawei build their internet infrastructure, I lost a lot of confidence in the EU. It appears to be USA or nothing for the foreseeable future. What exactly is the problem with Huawei building internet infrastructure in the EU? To this date, none of the accusations about supposed backdoors and spying from Huawei have been proven, never mind that to a EU citizen, CIA spying is hardly better than CCP spying.
Exactly, good posting last couple of pages by the way.
I can’t hope to do so remotely accurately, but will do so anyway. Seems to be something Americans can’t get their heads around but many Europeans want a multipolar world. Either through a genuine preference for multilateralism, or a cold-hearted realist acknowledgement that nobody has the requisite power to unilaterally act any more, even the big European powers.
Uncle Sam isn’t glowing as brightly as he once did, why tether your foreign policy so strongly to his whims? Is he going to back out of the Paris Accords again? Or leave military allies to die?
Plus crucially, America sees China as a rival for its crown that must be beaten, in a way Europeans do not. They were dethroned long enough ago that nobody’s expecting to get another title shot. America will sabre rattle for no real reason other than to be ‘tough on China’, even if it’s ultimately completely counter-productive and has negative knock-ons over here in glorious Europa.
This isn’t to say there aren’t concerns over China, far from it but they’re less couched in outright antagonism like the US’ are, Europe doesn’t have superpower status to defend after all.
But alleviating these concerns it seems a better strategy to form a bloc that’s so big it’s hard to ignore or push around and place Europe as a crude third superpower with its own agendas than tether to the US and an, IMO ultimately fruitless quest to out-compete China.
In the greater scheme of things it’s quite small, but Europe legislated for GDPR and much of the world just had to get in line. For all the rhetoric about Chinese spying there’s been fuck all protection for consumers and citizens that have come out in this domain outside of that, and that wasn’t a US-led move.
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On September 21 2021 18:13 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 18:02 Erasme wrote:On September 21 2021 17:56 Salazarz wrote:On September 21 2021 17:51 Erasme wrote:
Yeah, that'd more believable if China wasn't engaged, for the past 40years, in organs harvesting from minorities to fuel their hospitals.
That and a couple of cultural genocide. Ah yes, Falun Gong says their members are being harvested for organs and so we can conclude that the only thing stopping China from unleashing their armies upon Vietnam and South Korea are the noble US marines keeping a watchful vigil over the borders. Come the fuck on. The international community found the same thing though. It's weird how people see your actions differently once you start harvesting organs and erasing cultures. Maybe you can overlook that kind of thing. The same 'international community' that found WMDs in Iraq? The same 'international community' that decided war on terror would be a good idea? The same 'international community' that thought killing Gaddafi is a good plan? Yeah, sure. If that 'international community' says China is an aggressive, imperialist, culture-erasing evil empire, we better trust their judgment on that. Sarcasm aside, I have not heard of any state-sanctioned, targeted organ-harvesting programs in China. Local incidents of shitheads doing it to make cash on the side do happen, and the shitheads in question are usually prosecuted quite harshly. If you can show me concrete evidence of anything beyond that, we can have a conversation about it, although maybe it's better left for another thread -- feel free to link me a discussion on the topic if you'd like to start one. Same goes for erasing cultures. If you're talking about supposed Uighur genocide, there's basically nothing beyond tales of Adrian Zenz and his cronies, and he is a fucking lunatic and a con-artist. Again, if you'd like to discuss why you believe it's real and a serious issue, we can discuss that in a different thread. Bottomline though, neither of these things are relevant to the points I'm making. Even if entirely and completely true, what China does inside its borders is, first and foremost, an issue of China; just like police brutality and privatized, for-profit prisons in the US are, at the end of the day, an issue of the US. If their population is content living under those circumstances, that's up to them. Personally, I find drone strikes slaughtering civilians in foreign countries or sponsoring regime change of anyone deemed unfit for your state's interests a far bigger threat to 'world peace and prosperity' than whatever China is being accused of. And either way, I firmly believe that any country that is allowed to become a part of the global community and isn't antagonized the way places like Iran or North Korea are will eventually liberalize and adapt reasonable human rights. We saw it in places like South Korea, Taiwan, even the Gulf States to an extent. In my opinion, China is following a similar trajectory. They're already a far more democratic and lawful country than they were a mere generation ago. As folks gain more and more financial security and 'creature comforts', they will in turn start demanding more and more political influence and liberties. It's the natural course of every developing nation. And even if it wasn't... whatever internal issues they have, are in no way indicative of what their foreign policy might be in future. Claiming they're an aggressive expansionist empire based on their supposed treatment of minorities within their own borders is quite the stretch. edit: and as far as overlooking things goes... the US has literally just killed a bunch of kids with an unnecessary drone strike, tried to cover it up, then said well oopsie but it was 'a righteous strike' anyway when journalists kept digging and showed the truth. Or you know, the entire war in Iraq, you okay with overlooking that, yeah? Because we need to stand united against the threat of China, right?
Can you take a look at my posts, and stop bringing the US into this ?
+ Show Spoiler +
To make it clear, i am saying that if your country does that kind of shit, you shouldn't wonder that people will paint all of your actions with the same brush.
I was nice enough not to dig into Tibet or Falun Gong since you believe China changed stance.
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Its kind of good to keep the US involved in the thread about politics in the US though.
I'd also like to echo that I've met very very few chinese people who are ardently nationalist. I meet more ardent nationalists in the US than I did in China. From my experience living in Shanghai, chinese people are not a brainwashed mess, they're pretty normal, have access to western media if they want it (the chinese government COULD stop them from having access, but they actively choose not to except for politically charged dates and some holidays), and aren't insane nationalist conqueror minded folk.
The chinese government does absolutely suck, but the average chinese citizen really isn't as crazy as their government. Kind of like americans under Trump.
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On September 21 2021 19:02 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2021 18:13 Salazarz wrote:On September 21 2021 18:02 Erasme wrote:On September 21 2021 17:56 Salazarz wrote:On September 21 2021 17:51 Erasme wrote:
Yeah, that'd more believable if China wasn't engaged, for the past 40years, in organs harvesting from minorities to fuel their hospitals.
That and a couple of cultural genocide. Ah yes, Falun Gong says their members are being harvested for organs and so we can conclude that the only thing stopping China from unleashing their armies upon Vietnam and South Korea are the noble US marines keeping a watchful vigil over the borders. Come the fuck on. The international community found the same thing though. It's weird how people see your actions differently once you start harvesting organs and erasing cultures. Maybe you can overlook that kind of thing. The same 'international community' that found WMDs in Iraq? The same 'international community' that decided war on terror would be a good idea? The same 'international community' that thought killing Gaddafi is a good plan? Yeah, sure. If that 'international community' says China is an aggressive, imperialist, culture-erasing evil empire, we better trust their judgment on that. Sarcasm aside, I have not heard of any state-sanctioned, targeted organ-harvesting programs in China. Local incidents of shitheads doing it to make cash on the side do happen, and the shitheads in question are usually prosecuted quite harshly. If you can show me concrete evidence of anything beyond that, we can have a conversation about it, although maybe it's better left for another thread -- feel free to link me a discussion on the topic if you'd like to start one. Same goes for erasing cultures. If you're talking about supposed Uighur genocide, there's basically nothing beyond tales of Adrian Zenz and his cronies, and he is a fucking lunatic and a con-artist. Again, if you'd like to discuss why you believe it's real and a serious issue, we can discuss that in a different thread. Bottomline though, neither of these things are relevant to the points I'm making. Even if entirely and completely true, what China does inside its borders is, first and foremost, an issue of China; just like police brutality and privatized, for-profit prisons in the US are, at the end of the day, an issue of the US. If their population is content living under those circumstances, that's up to them. Personally, I find drone strikes slaughtering civilians in foreign countries or sponsoring regime change of anyone deemed unfit for your state's interests a far bigger threat to 'world peace and prosperity' than whatever China is being accused of. And either way, I firmly believe that any country that is allowed to become a part of the global community and isn't antagonized the way places like Iran or North Korea are will eventually liberalize and adapt reasonable human rights. We saw it in places like South Korea, Taiwan, even the Gulf States to an extent. In my opinion, China is following a similar trajectory. They're already a far more democratic and lawful country than they were a mere generation ago. As folks gain more and more financial security and 'creature comforts', they will in turn start demanding more and more political influence and liberties. It's the natural course of every developing nation. And even if it wasn't... whatever internal issues they have, are in no way indicative of what their foreign policy might be in future. Claiming they're an aggressive expansionist empire based on their supposed treatment of minorities within their own borders is quite the stretch. edit: and as far as overlooking things goes... the US has literally just killed a bunch of kids with an unnecessary drone strike, tried to cover it up, then said well oopsie but it was 'a righteous strike' anyway when journalists kept digging and showed the truth. Or you know, the entire war in Iraq, you okay with overlooking that, yeah? Because we need to stand united against the threat of China, right? Can you take a look at my posts, and stop bringing the US into this ? + Show Spoiler +To make it clear, i am saying that if your country does that kind of shit, you shouldn't wonder that people will paint all of your actions with the same brush. I was nice enough not to dig into Tibet or Falun Gong since you believe China changed stance.
Nothing about this addresses the actual points of my post that you have quoted. Personally, given so many outrageous fabricated media campaigns we've witnessed in the past few decades (Nayirah testimony is the most obvious example that comes to mind, but it's not like it's the only one), I have little inclination to believe stories about 'millions being exterminated' and 'state wide organ harvesting programs' based on 'witness testimonies' such as the ones you've linked. If you believe them, that's up to you -- but it has nothing to do with China's supposed inclination towards conquering the world or lack of thereof, or the discussion about advantages of a multipolar world vs one led by a single super power, or the debate as to whether the US treating the EU as junior partners rather than valued equals is a good strategy, which are the conversations I am trying to engage in.
Like, I am not trying to convince you that China is a wonderland full of rainbows and unicorns. I'm not even trying to argue whether China or the US is the 'better' or 'more righteous' state or what have you. If you believe that accusations you've linked above are sufficient to shut down any and all discussions entirely and the only approach to dealing with China is to try and isolate their country completely akin to how NK was treated... well, not only that's incredibly short-sighted, but it is also entirely unrealistic.
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On September 21 2021 21:09 JimmiC wrote:
In boiling it down to wsy to simple the US has been much worse outside its borders china within its borders st least in the last 50 years. Would China therfore be worse if they start going outside, who knows, but they certainly have a government with expanshionist desires.
In the end the who is sorse discussion is such a terrible one because it just ends up revealing how awful both are and how unwilling the rest of the world is to hold them accountable if it means more expensive shit for their people or less markets for their people to sell too.
I'm not sure how much you can blame the rest of the world for not holding them accountable.
They are the two biggest superpowers. There's not much anyone else can do.
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EPT
