EPTI get that the situation can be bad enough to warrant closing down schools. Maybe it is in some american regions, that's not a big part of my argument. The main argument I'm making that they should be the last thing to go - there shouldn't be dine-in eating, no bars, no gatherings above 10 people in private homes. It's not one of those 'we can keep this one up for a while' solutions, it's a 'we can do this as part of a really concentrated effort for a short period of time' type of solution.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3290
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28892 Posts
I get that the situation can be bad enough to warrant closing down schools. Maybe it is in some american regions, that's not a big part of my argument. The main argument I'm making that they should be the last thing to go - there shouldn't be dine-in eating, no bars, no gatherings above 10 people in private homes. It's not one of those 'we can keep this one up for a while' solutions, it's a 'we can do this as part of a really concentrated effort for a short period of time' type of solution. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28892 Posts
On August 20 2021 06:40 GreenHorizons wrote: Yeah. "fine" might be a stretch though. It's killed hundreds and hospitalized thousands of children (a traumatic experience for children no doubt). apnews.com But another thought was about how it would impact the larger ongoing wave. While the 'it's just a flu' argument doesn't work against Covid in general, it is fairly comparable when looking at how children are impacted. 400 since march 2020 isn't much higher than the 200 annually before that - not that I've looked at how the numbers compare percentage wise. (In Norway though, only 0.5% of confirmed cases are hospitalized, and only 1 out of 22000 deaths), and with how asymptomatic children often are, I'm guessing there are more unconfirmed cases in that age group). | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28892 Posts
I just don't think closing schools should be part of some greater 'flatten the curve'-strategy. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46402 Posts
On August 20 2021 06:52 JimmiC wrote: The biggest issue with home schooling for all is what do the parents do. A huge societal benifit of schools is childcare for the younger ages. If the parents are all working from home its doable but productivity foe the parent is way down as is the kids as they are not getting enough attention. People on hourly or who need to go work to have it happen/get paid are completely screwed. This is another reason why I agree with Drone on it being the last to close. It is also why all the far less intrusive messures, like masks, shouldbe enforced so much sooner. If you are going to shut down schools you should take that time to get it back under control with a full lockdown and then open back up with measures until you have herd immunity through vaccination. There is no good options with where the US is right now with their healthcare system on the verge of collapse. Its basiaclly let it buck and pay for decades all tge costs of letting the pandemic run wild. Or do another forced shutdown but actually dont listen to all the dummies that think covid is just the flu and reoopen with some sense. They aren't perfect solutions, but there are a bunch of options that can address the frustrations of remote learning, needing to supervise children at home, etc. For example, I know a lot of families created learning pods / rotations for supervision. Neighbors or friends could take turns being in charge of their kids for a day. If five families wanted to join in this together, then each parent (or pair of parents) would need to watch the five kids for one day per week. You watch them on Mondays, my wife or I can watch them on Tuesdays, etc. If teachers can micromanage 30 students at once while simultaneously teaching them, a parent should be able to make sure that 5 children (who are all children that they personally know and have a rapport with their families, making it even easier) can sit still and watch the lessons that the teachers are teaching online. The supervising parent doesn't need to teach anything; they just need to make sure the kids have Zoom open (or whatever). There may also be centralized locations available (e.g., a library or even a few large classrooms/cafeterias) where families who don't have a trusted network can drop off their children with a few willing, professional supervisors of some sort, who only need to make sure the students are paying attention to the remote lessons. It's not ideal, but there are certainly creative ways to avoid forcing dozens of students in a single room, and hundreds/thousands in a single building. As an added bonus, the rotating learning pods can even enable the students to hang out with a few of their friends, so yay for a little social interaction too! | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24342 Posts
On August 20 2021 07:08 Liquid`Drone wrote: These are valid arguments for short term total lockdowns! I just don't think closing schools should be part of some greater 'flatten the curve'-strategy. No absolutely. Should have saw Delta rising in July and reversed the reopening push (if not listened to the scientists that suggested July 4 was too early to be reopened anyway) as I said week(s?) ago. I'm just looking at my Democrat governor and Biden talking about masking kids (that let's be real, won't wear them right anyway) instead of seeing these record breaking, hospital filling infections and shutting everything back down (to at least reduced capacity, including schools). They are the ones that are supposed to be listening to the science and they simply aren't as far as I can tell regarding the epidemiological reasoning for opening schools or keeping all these businesses open at full capacity with only next week reinstating mask mandates (in my state, still just a euphemistic "recommendation" nationally). Who knows how that goes over now that people have gotten out of the habit of wearing masks too. More "fun" for retail/service workers confronting antivaxxers and vaccinated Karens that are above the rules I imagine. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46402 Posts
On August 20 2021 07:28 JimmiC wrote: Those are all helpful, they are also out of reach for many especially poorer people. The other thing is my wife is a grade 1 teacher, and it was a struggle for her to do her online teaching and manage our 2 kids. One great thing about school is that there is a lot of structure and that children learn well from watching what others do. Much of that disappears at home. And also should vs do are another big factor there were many, many parents who just put their kids on devices so they could get their work done or chill. My wife experience going back was the kids from "good homes" were not that far behind, and the kids from "rougher homes" were way way behind. Another part of the function of school is an attempt to create a equality of opportunity which disappears when children are also reliant on their parents for education and this is before we even start to get into all the feeding and clothing programs that happen at schools. I'm not saying they shouldn't BTW, I'm saying it creates a lot of problems so you better damn well be solving the hospital one if you are doing it. And if you are shutting schools but not doing a full lockdown I don't believe you will be in the US. They probably should move the schools to online, but they probably also should do full lockdowns. Agreed on all accounts. Working-class families tend to be hit hardest in multiple ways during emergencies, and coronavirus is no exception. A classroom environment is generally better for learning than an arbitrary room in a house that is used for a million different purposes. And certainly if parents can't/won't help supervise their children, things are infinitely more complicated. Maybe I'm biased as an educator, but with the exception of rare, freak accidents, teachers don't really expect to be sacrificial lambs, and we certainly would prefer the health and safety of our students, their families, ourselves, and our families ahead of curriculum. Things certainly become more complicated when we talk about social and emotional development too, and not just academic progress, so there's no way to make it out unscathed. I just want to make sure we make it out alive. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27346 Posts
On August 20 2021 06:47 Liquid`Drone wrote: I am a teacher though. Doesn't mean that I can speak on behalf of all teachers, of course - but I think it gives me a better perspective of just how detrimental prolonged online learning is for children, and I'm not trying to force anything upon anyone that I'm not forcing upon myself. I get that the situation can be bad enough to warrant closing down schools. Maybe it is in some american regions, that's not a big part of my argument. The main argument I'm making that they should be the last thing to go - there shouldn't be dine-in eating, no bars, no gatherings above 10 people in private homes. It's not one of those 'we can keep this one up for a while' solutions, it's a 'we can do this as part of a really concentrated effort for a short period of time' type of solution. Yeah, that would largely be my position. Plus other factors, kids going to better funded schools from wealthier backgrounds outperform their less wealthy counterparts anyway, least in the U.K. that gap, at least per tangible measurable exam results widened with remote learning and the cancellation of exams etc. It may be a necessary move, but it’s not going to fly if people are free from restrictions in other areas Or, if it arises in the way that schools get closed because there’s resistance to a vaccine mandate and authorities go with placating that. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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wdoubleN
17 Posts
On August 20 2021 05:29 Sadist wrote: It should be a death penalty case. This is domestic terrorism. A case that would definitely NOT happen. | ||
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gs.yasashii
3 Posts
Edit: not misleading and sufficient info was given, but okay. | ||
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Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46402 Posts
On August 21 2021 02:20 plasmidghost wrote: Biden's popularity has dropped significantly since the Taliban took over Afghanistan. Do y'all think that it's going to be so bad that Dems get fucked next year or that America will move on and think better of him when more things get passed and implemented? I apologize for the unfulfilling answer, but it probably depends on how many things get passed and what those things are :/ | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24342 Posts
On August 21 2021 02:20 plasmidghost wrote: Biden's popularity has dropped significantly since the Taliban took over Afghanistan. Do y'all think that it's going to be so bad that Dems get fucked next year or that America will move on and think better of him when more things get passed and implemented? Boils down to how the infrastructure packages go/get spun imo. If neither passes they definitely lose (and we step closer to SHTF territory). If just the Republican approved package passes they probably lose. If both pass without some significant cut Democrats probably survive 2022. If fall/winter 2021 is worse than 2020 under Trump regarding covid then they'll probably lose regardless of what they pass. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On August 21 2021 02:20 plasmidghost wrote: Biden's popularity has dropped significantly since the Taliban took over Afghanistan. Do y'all think that it's going to be so bad that Dems get fucked next year or that America will move on and think better of him when more things get passed and implemented? I expect Afghanistan to be a transitory popularity drop but for the Democrats to do poorly in 2022 due to their fairly ineffective legislating under even the best of circumstances. | ||
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