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On April 16 2021 07:39 BlackJack wrote:
What in the hell...........
Since when are the only two options LET HIM FLEE OR SHOOT HIM?
What kind of stupid results-oriented thinking is this? You realize the shooting was accidental, right? By sheer fact that unfortunate series of events happened they were supposed to let him flee at the beginning because they could have predicted that the dimwit cop was going to mistake her taser for her gun or something? That's such a ridiculously irrational line of thinking.
So ZerOCool is saying they should have let him flee instead of shooting him? Not only did he not explicitly say this but it doesn't even make sense in the context that the lady didn't even intend to shoot him! But if this ridiculous hypothetical is actually what ZerOCool was saying and my response of "don't let a criminal flee" made it sound to you like "shoot the criminal instead of letting him flee." Then let me say it as plainly as possible: No you shouldn't shoot fleeing criminals to keep them from getting away. Again, in the rest of the world he likely would not have been taser either.
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I'll start from scratch and reiterate my argument one more time since it still may not be clear:
Humans are not infallible and are prone to errors. If you work at McDonalds it probably doesn't matter if you mess up somebody's order very much. But if you are a Doctor that pushes a wrong medication, an engineer that designs a faulty bridge, an airline pilot that makes a bad mistake, sometimes your mistakes can kill people. It's even more true for police that are constantly put in the most dangerous situations in our society and who have:
1) Far less education and training than other professions
2) Far less time to think about their decisions
3) Far more panic flowing them them when having to make their decisions
I know for a fact that I could not operate under these conditions flawlessly. If anyone here thinks they can they are probably deluding themselves. So they are essentially set up to fail since humans are not infallible and mistakes are inevitable. It's simply a matter of time when a mistake is going to be made that ends somebody's life. So the question is what to do with someone who makes a mistake in their job that ends another person's life even though it's basically predestined that such a mistake will happen? Maybe just throw them away in jail like a sacrificial lamb so everyone else can feel good that justice is served? Like a culling of the bottom 0.1% of incompetence? Maybe, it's not a completely unreasonable idea and it would probably make some people "think twice" and possibly prevent the mistake from happening again in the future. Of course it may deter a lot of good and intelligent people from wanting to be police officers if they know they will be in dangerous situations and if they fuck up they will go to prison? That's my question.
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United States42720 Posts
On April 16 2021 08:28 BlackJack wrote:
I'll start from scratch and reiterate my argument one more time since it still may not be clear:
Humans are not infallible and are prone to errors. If you work at McDonalds it probably doesn't matter if you mess up somebody's order very much. But if you are a Doctor that pushes a wrong medication, an engineer that designs a faulty bridge, an airline pilot that makes a bad mistake, sometimes your mistakes can kill people. It's even more true for police that are constantly put in the most dangerous situations in our society and who have:
1) Far less education and training than other professions
2) Far less time to think about their decisions
3) Far more panic flowing them them when having to make their decisions
I know for a fact that I could not operate under these conditions flawlessly. If anyone here thinks they can they are probably deluding themselves. So they are essentially set up to fail since humans are not infallible and mistakes are inevitable. It's simply a matter of time when a mistake is going to be made that ends somebody's life. So the question is what to do with someone who makes a mistake in their job that ends another person's life even though it's basically predestined that such a mistake will happen? Maybe just throw them away in jail like a sacrificial lamb so everyone else can feel good that justice is served? Like a culling of the bottom 0.1% of incompetence? Maybe, it's not a completely unreasonable idea and it would probably make some people "think twice" and possibly prevent the mistake from happening again in the future. Of course it may deter a lot of good and intelligent people from wanting to be police officers if they know they will be in dangerous situations and if they fuck up they will go to prison? That's my question.
Cops very rarely accidentally shoot someone. It’s far more frequent that they deliberately shoot someone that they shouldn’t have. Treating this as if their guns accidentally went off is absurd and missing the point.
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On April 16 2021 08:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2021 08:28 BlackJack wrote:
I'll start from scratch and reiterate my argument one more time since it still may not be clear:
Humans are not infallible and are prone to errors. If you work at McDonalds it probably doesn't matter if you mess up somebody's order very much. But if you are a Doctor that pushes a wrong medication, an engineer that designs a faulty bridge, an airline pilot that makes a bad mistake, sometimes your mistakes can kill people. It's even more true for police that are constantly put in the most dangerous situations in our society and who have:
1) Far less education and training than other professions
2) Far less time to think about their decisions
3) Far more panic flowing them them when having to make their decisions
I know for a fact that I could not operate under these conditions flawlessly. If anyone here thinks they can they are probably deluding themselves. So they are essentially set up to fail since humans are not infallible and mistakes are inevitable. It's simply a matter of time when a mistake is going to be made that ends somebody's life. So the question is what to do with someone who makes a mistake in their job that ends another person's life even though it's basically predestined that such a mistake will happen? Maybe just throw them away in jail like a sacrificial lamb so everyone else can feel good that justice is served? Like a culling of the bottom 0.1% of incompetence? Maybe, it's not a completely unreasonable idea and it would probably make some people "think twice" and possibly prevent the mistake from happening again in the future. Of course it may deter a lot of good and intelligent people from wanting to be police officers if they know they will be in dangerous situations and if they fuck up they will go to prison? That's my question. Cops very rarely accidentally shoot someone. It’s far more frequent that they deliberately shoot someone that they shouldn’t have. Treating this as if their guns accidentally went off is absurd and missing the point.
Don't mind sharing the proof for your suggestion that she deliberately shot the guy, do you?
Or are you just bullshitting?
Btw, plenty of bodycam videos on youtube that show accidental discharges. Of course they should never happen, but to argue that an accidental discharge is "absurd" is idiotic.
And i tell you that as someone who actually has handled guns from side arm to machine cannon for almost a decade. Professionally.
edit: to be clear here, she certainly deserves to go to jail, the charge is spot on from what i can tell by watching this incident from multiple angles (if you have some magic 8ball with additional angles, i'll readily admit i'm wrong). My point is more the "well accidental discharges don't happen so the conclusion is murder".
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On April 16 2021 08:43 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2021 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2021 08:28 BlackJack wrote:
I'll start from scratch and reiterate my argument one more time since it still may not be clear:
Humans are not infallible and are prone to errors. If you work at McDonalds it probably doesn't matter if you mess up somebody's order very much. But if you are a Doctor that pushes a wrong medication, an engineer that designs a faulty bridge, an airline pilot that makes a bad mistake, sometimes your mistakes can kill people. It's even more true for police that are constantly put in the most dangerous situations in our society and who have:
1) Far less education and training than other professions
2) Far less time to think about their decisions
3) Far more panic flowing them them when having to make their decisions
I know for a fact that I could not operate under these conditions flawlessly. If anyone here thinks they can they are probably deluding themselves. So they are essentially set up to fail since humans are not infallible and mistakes are inevitable. It's simply a matter of time when a mistake is going to be made that ends somebody's life. So the question is what to do with someone who makes a mistake in their job that ends another person's life even though it's basically predestined that such a mistake will happen? Maybe just throw them away in jail like a sacrificial lamb so everyone else can feel good that justice is served? Like a culling of the bottom 0.1% of incompetence? Maybe, it's not a completely unreasonable idea and it would probably make some people "think twice" and possibly prevent the mistake from happening again in the future. Of course it may deter a lot of good and intelligent people from wanting to be police officers if they know they will be in dangerous situations and if they fuck up they will go to prison? That's my question. Cops very rarely accidentally shoot someone. It’s far more frequent that they deliberately shoot someone that they shouldn’t have. Treating this as if their guns accidentally went off is absurd and missing the point. Don't mind sharing the proof for your suggestion that she deliberately shot the guy, do you? Or are you just bullshitting? Btw, plenty of bodycam videos on youtube that show accidental discharges. Of course they should never happen, but to argue that an accidental discharge is "absurd" is idiotic. And i tell you that as someone who actually has handled guns from side arm to machine cannon for almost a decade. Professionally. Kwark is talking in general, not this specific case. Since this is a single incident of a cop killing a person they should, its a systemic problem in the US.
And as said near the start of this whole discussion. Drawing the wrong weapon, aiming with the wrong weapon and shooting the wrong weapon is not an accidental discharge, its negligence.
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On April 16 2021 08:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2021 08:28 BlackJack wrote:
I'll start from scratch and reiterate my argument one more time since it still may not be clear:
Humans are not infallible and are prone to errors. If you work at McDonalds it probably doesn't matter if you mess up somebody's order very much. But if you are a Doctor that pushes a wrong medication, an engineer that designs a faulty bridge, an airline pilot that makes a bad mistake, sometimes your mistakes can kill people. It's even more true for police that are constantly put in the most dangerous situations in our society and who have:
1) Far less education and training than other professions
2) Far less time to think about their decisions
3) Far more panic flowing them them when having to make their decisions
I know for a fact that I could not operate under these conditions flawlessly. If anyone here thinks they can they are probably deluding themselves. So they are essentially set up to fail since humans are not infallible and mistakes are inevitable. It's simply a matter of time when a mistake is going to be made that ends somebody's life. So the question is what to do with someone who makes a mistake in their job that ends another person's life even though it's basically predestined that such a mistake will happen? Maybe just throw them away in jail like a sacrificial lamb so everyone else can feel good that justice is served? Like a culling of the bottom 0.1% of incompetence? Maybe, it's not a completely unreasonable idea and it would probably make some people "think twice" and possibly prevent the mistake from happening again in the future. Of course it may deter a lot of good and intelligent people from wanting to be police officers if they know they will be in dangerous situations and if they fuck up they will go to prison? That's my question. Cops very rarely accidentally shoot someone. It’s far more frequent that they deliberately shoot someone that they shouldn’t have. Treating this as if their guns accidentally went off is absurd and missing the point.
This is the hot topic on the news right now. Should we reserve all conversation for a more broad discussion on policing in America?
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I'm just so tired. We're enemy number one of the GOP now and I am probably going to leave the US if things get worse here. Joe Manchin already said he doesn't support the equality bill and the courts are stacked way against us. The worst part is, none of my non-trans friends are raising awareness about these laws.
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On April 16 2021 09:40 plasmidghost wrote:
I'm just so tired. We're enemy number one of the GOP now and I am probably going to leave the US if things get worse here. Joe Manchin already said he doesn't support the equality bill and the courts are stacked way against us. The worst part is, none of my non-trans friends are raising awareness about these laws.
What state are you in? Plenty of trans-friendly communities. Portland is very accepting.
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On April 16 2021 10:13 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2021 09:40 plasmidghost wrote:
I'm just so tired. We're enemy number one of the GOP now and I am probably going to leave the US if things get worse here. Joe Manchin already said he doesn't support the equality bill and the courts are stacked way against us. The worst part is, none of my non-trans friends are raising awareness about these laws. What state are you in? Plenty of trans-friendly communities. Portland is very accepting.
Portland, OR is indeed very accepting, anecdotally I'd say half of the restaurants and bars I've been to had non-binary or transgendered employees, and there was nothing unusual about it, no bad customers or what not. Of course, some people might have different experiences. And I guess it also depends where you are in the city. There are some rough spots.
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I've generally been quite happy with the transition from NW Ohio/SE Michigan to Northern Virginia, one reason being this area is very socially progressive. There's some very troubling class divide stuff going on, but I'll take what I can get I suppose.
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United States24686 Posts
And personal property tax. Ew.
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yeah paying an extra 4 grand annually for cars threw us for a loop for sure
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On April 16 2021 10:13 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2021 09:40 plasmidghost wrote:
I'm just so tired. We're enemy number one of the GOP now and I am probably going to leave the US if things get worse here. Joe Manchin already said he doesn't support the equality bill and the courts are stacked way against us. The worst part is, none of my non-trans friends are raising awareness about these laws. What state are you in? Plenty of trans-friendly communities. Portland is very accepting.
plasmidghost is in Texas iirc. We (as in Texas) certainly aren't the most trans-friendly place at the moment, unfortunately.
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On April 16 2021 09:40 plasmidghost wrote:
I'm just so tired. We're enemy number one of the GOP now and I am probably going to leave the US if things get worse here. Joe Manchin already said he doesn't support the equality bill and the courts are stacked way against us. The worst part is, none of my non-trans friends are raising awareness about these laws.
This is an issue that is tiring to watch just from the outside, i cannot even imagine what it must feel to be directly threatened by it. The whole anti-LGBTQ+ thing is completely inexplicable to me. I cannot for the life of me understand why so many people invest so much energy just into making life harder and more painful for people. It is utterly unfathomable to me why they can not just let people who hurt no one else live in peace. I am exhausted just from watching this, i really cannot even imagine what it must feel like for you.
I feel for you, and i wish that you will find a community where you can feel welcome, and where you can live without the constant threat of bigoted assholes trying to make your life as bad as possible for no explicable reason.
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On April 16 2021 08:28 BlackJack wrote:
I'll start from scratch and reiterate my argument one more time since it still may not be clear:
Humans are not infallible and are prone to errors. If you work at McDonalds it probably doesn't matter if you mess up somebody's order very much. But if you are a Doctor that pushes a wrong medication, an engineer that designs a faulty bridge, an airline pilot that makes a bad mistake, sometimes your mistakes can kill people. It's even more true for police that are constantly put in the most dangerous situations in our society and who have:
Fun fact: Being a cop in the U.S. isn't even in the top 10 most deadly professions.
#22, actually.
IN OTHER NEWS, is anyone surprised that an unarmed Latino child was shot by the Chicago police recently?
https://www.npr.org/2021/04/15/987718420/chicago-releases-video-showing-fatal-police-shooting-of-13-year-old-adam-toledo
Chicago has released video footage showing the fatal police shooting of Adam Toledo, more than two weeks after the 13-year-old was killed during a foot chase in the Little Village neighborhood.
A graphic and disturbing video captures what police have described as an alleyway confrontation between Toledo and an officer identified as Eric Stillman in the early morning of March 29.
Link to the video: https://www.chicagocopa.org/case/2021-1112/
This shit is laughably inexcusable at this point.
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On April 16 2021 13:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2021 08:28 BlackJack wrote:
I'll start from scratch and reiterate my argument one more time since it still may not be clear:
Humans are not infallible and are prone to errors. If you work at McDonalds it probably doesn't matter if you mess up somebody's order very much. But if you are a Doctor that pushes a wrong medication, an engineer that designs a faulty bridge, an airline pilot that makes a bad mistake, sometimes your mistakes can kill people. It's even more true for police that are constantly put in the most dangerous situations in our society and who have:
Fun fact: Being a cop in the U.S. isn't even in the top 10 most deadly professions.
I'm sure that's only because they're gunning down 13-year old children who turn around and put their hands up as requested, then lying and claiming they had guns in their hands. Otherwise they would be in way more danger. Calling these errors or accidents is sickening. I can't imagine their training didn't cover "don't shoot people immediately after you demand they surrender unless a firearm is clearly visible."
It's almost like they knew these kinds of things happened all the time so they resisted bodycams for years. The culture of coverup and misrepresentation is ancient.
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If anything this just proves my point. Because it actually does appear the kid was trying to ditch the gun and surrender instead of pull the gun and blow the cop away. Given that fact the cop obviously made the wrong decision to shoot the kid. But as I said it's literally a split second decision being made with hand-shaking adrenaline through his system. It's literally an impossible task but the cop failed the impossible task so off to the stockades with him.
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On April 16 2021 13:32 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2021 13:22 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 16 2021 08:28 BlackJack wrote:
I'll start from scratch and reiterate my argument one more time since it still may not be clear:
Humans are not infallible and are prone to errors. If you work at McDonalds it probably doesn't matter if you mess up somebody's order very much. But if you are a Doctor that pushes a wrong medication, an engineer that designs a faulty bridge, an airline pilot that makes a bad mistake, sometimes your mistakes can kill people. It's even more true for police that are constantly put in the most dangerous situations in our society and who have:
Fun fact: Being a cop in the U.S. isn't even in the top 10 most deadly professions. I'm sure that's only because they're gunning down 13-year old children who turn around and put their hands up as requested, then lying and claiming they had guns in their hands. Otherwise they would be in way more danger. Calling these errors or accidents is sickening. I can't imagine their training didn't cover "don't shoot people immediately after you demand they surrender unless a firearm is clearly visible."
Not for nothing, but he did have a gun. I watched the video, it's clearly visible and in his hand before turning around, he drops/tosses it when he faces the cop, and is shot technically unarmed. It's all rather unfortunate, but it's a bit disingenuous to frame it like that. He was unarmed for less than a second, and in that instant he was shot.
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EPT
