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On June 20 2018 10:04 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:58 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:53 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 07:29 Introvert wrote:"We want to keep the focus on Trump" is precisely the Dem strategy, nice to see them say it. He just rejects everything out of hand, amazing. Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
"There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense," Schumer told reporters. "Legislation is not the way to go here when it's so easy for the president to sign it."
Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.
"Again, the president can change it with his pen," he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor. rest here (in a hurry) http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 07:29 Introvert wrote:"We want to keep the focus on Trump" is precisely the Dem strategy, nice to see them say it. He just rejects everything out of hand, amazing. Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
"There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense," Schumer told reporters. "Legislation is not the way to go here when it's so easy for the president to sign it."
Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.
"Again, the president can change it with his pen," he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor. rest here (in a hurry) http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. Maybe if Mitch let them write the bill or have some sort of input, he might get someplace. But that isn’t what is happening. The bill is going to be tailored to meet Republican concerns and then given to democrats to make up the remaining votes. Senators don’t often vote for legislation they can’t help write. And again, there is a much quicker solution available. Schumer dismissed it out of hand. He said they want to "keep the focus" on Trump. Doesn't think they should have to have legislation, after introducing their own. “There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.” And be sure to see my edit about their plan. On June 20 2018 09:53 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 07:29 Introvert wrote:"We want to keep the focus on Trump" is precisely the Dem strategy, nice to see them say it. He just rejects everything out of hand, amazing. Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
"There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense," Schumer told reporters. "Legislation is not the way to go here when it's so easy for the president to sign it."
Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.
"Again, the president can change it with his pen," he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor. rest here (in a hurry) http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 07:29 Introvert wrote:"We want to keep the focus on Trump" is precisely the Dem strategy, nice to see them say it. He just rejects everything out of hand, amazing. Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
"There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense," Schumer told reporters. "Legislation is not the way to go here when it's so easy for the president to sign it."
Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.
"Again, the president can change it with his pen," he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor. rest here (in a hurry) http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. I'm partisan in the sense I think both Republicans and Democrats are awful, but the former are actively supporting a man that is a fascist. I don't think he's competent enough to be a dictator in waiting, but if you look at the way his administration treats the dispossessed he is undoubtedly a fascist. The kids being kept in cages is heart breaking, but co operating with Ted Cruz on legislation only solves a specific short term problem while engendering a lot of good will for a Republican Party that is semi-uncomfortable with being fascistic right now, and thus wants to return back to good old facist-enabling conservatism. This is a pretty remarkable statement. Anyone else care to endorse this position? (Stop me if I sound anymore like GH). Bruh, it is an executive branch policy (see zero-tolerance policy linked in detail above) that is creating the crisis. This is not a matter for legislative branch fixes. Schumer rightly wants the executive branch situation fixed first, then legislative branch solutions pursued. A hastily written bill by the legislative branch won't undo the Trump/Sessions zero-tolerance policy. BUT DEMOCRATS ARE JUST AS BAD won't transmute Jeff Sessions into Eric Holder. You get the difference between executive and legislative branches, right? As long as the hysteria dies, so long as we hear no more talk of fascism and "concentration camps" ...then sure. But you do know that the legislative branch has the power to stop this crime against humanity? I must have misjudged how important this was to the left! Nevermind everyone!
Yeah, but Trump will just create another crime, crisis or something else. Or he and Sessions won’t obey the law. They don’t care about the law anyways, Trump has proven that over and over. The Democrats are seeing Trump for what he is, a monster that won’t stop.
The Presidents administration is putting children in camps, on display for border crossers to see. As a warning. The only legislative that will truly solve this going forward is impeachment or defunding ICE.
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On June 20 2018 10:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:49 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:32 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. How many pages are you going to go on pretending the facts fit your narrative? Does it matter that you have no facts to back up your assertions? The facts are out there. This crisis started with with he Sessions zero tolerance policy.
The Central American refugee crisis developed during President Barack Obama’s administration and continues under Trump. The two administrations have taken different approaches. The Justice Department under Obama prioritized the deportation of dangerous people. Once he took office, Trump issued an executive order rolling back much of the Obama-era framework.
Obama’s guidelines prioritized the deportation of gang members, those who posed a national security risk and those who had committed felonies. Trump’s January 2017 executive order does not include a priority list for deportations and refers only to “criminal offenses,” which is broad enough to encompass serious felonies as well as misdemeanors.
Then, in April 2018, Attorney General Jeff Sessions rolled out the zero-tolerance policy.
The doublespeak coming from Trump and top administration officials on this issue is breathtaking, not only because of the sheer audacity of these claims but also because they keep being repeated without evidence. Immigrant families are being separated at the border not because of Democrats and not because some law forces this result, as Trump insists. They’re being separated because the Trump administration, under its zero-tolerance policy, is choosing to prosecute border-crossing adults for any offenses.
This includes illegal-entry misdemeanors, which are being prosecuted at a rate not seen in previous administrations. Because the act of crossing itself is now being treated as an offense worthy of prosecution, any family that enters the United States illegally is likely to end up separated. Nielsen may choose not to call this a “family separation policy,” but that’s precisely the effect it has.
Sessions, who otherwise owns up to what’s happening, has suggested that the Flores settlement and a court ruling are forcing his hand. They’re not. At heart, this is an issue of prosecutorial discretion: his discretion.
The Trump administration owns this family-separation policy, and its spin deserves Four Pinocchios.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?utm_term=.2a86bf8434f4EDIT: here is the memo. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download That doesn't even address, let alone refute what I said. On June 20 2018 09:26 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. Obama was in office in April, 2018? Jeff Sessions was his AG? Are you even reading what you're responding to? One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas. Another one is a abandoned and repurposed Walmart. Some are dention facilities built before 2016 with state and federal money. Trump and Sessions filled them with children taken from their parents. They are the ones that have created the policy that detained 50k people. The existence of the buildings did not invite this crisis. And if those buildings did not exist, the administration would find others. This is the fault of the current administration. One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas Yeah... You won't see me argue that Trump hasn't made the whole thing worse than it was but this is so far from specifically his fault it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the incredibly narrow perspective it takes to even suggest it,despite your recent admission to the complacency you're effectively defending now. Because pointing fingers at who was more or less complicate is a waste of time. All it does is make the people that might work with me defensive and less likely to help. I’ll focus on my own complicity and leave everyone else to their own bullshit. Prisons and detention facilities are going to be built, with or without my approval or condemnation. I prefer to focus my efforts in how people are treated when they end up there and on things like criminal justice reform.
I'm the one who thinks the atrocious pictures we saw during the Obama administration were already a crisis, it's folks like you, ayaz, and wulfey that finally think it's gone too far.
The concession that there's going to be more prisons/facilities and they'll be built by and filled with Democrats you'll vote for is the very line of complacency that led us here to shouting pointlessly into the void and abdicating real culpability for the conditions that got us Trump.
Neither side has any intention of doing anything because they both want the issue to rally voters, the people in the camps are little more than political fodder for both sides of this argument and it's gross at this point.
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On June 20 2018 10:10 Wulfey_LA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:04 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 10:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:58 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:53 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. Maybe if Mitch let them write the bill or have some sort of input, he might get someplace. But that isn’t what is happening. The bill is going to be tailored to meet Republican concerns and then given to democrats to make up the remaining votes. Senators don’t often vote for legislation they can’t help write. And again, there is a much quicker solution available. Schumer dismissed it out of hand. He said they want to "keep the focus" on Trump. Doesn't think they should have to have legislation, after introducing their own. “There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.” And be sure to see my edit about their plan. On June 20 2018 09:53 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. I'm partisan in the sense I think both Republicans and Democrats are awful, but the former are actively supporting a man that is a fascist. I don't think he's competent enough to be a dictator in waiting, but if you look at the way his administration treats the dispossessed he is undoubtedly a fascist. The kids being kept in cages is heart breaking, but co operating with Ted Cruz on legislation only solves a specific short term problem while engendering a lot of good will for a Republican Party that is semi-uncomfortable with being fascistic right now, and thus wants to return back to good old facist-enabling conservatism. This is a pretty remarkable statement. Anyone else care to endorse this position? (Stop me if I sound anymore like GH). Bruh, it is an executive branch policy (see zero-tolerance policy linked in detail above) that is creating the crisis. This is not a matter for legislative branch fixes. Schumer rightly wants the executive branch situation fixed first, then legislative branch solutions pursued. A hastily written bill by the legislative branch won't undo the Trump/Sessions zero-tolerance policy. BUT DEMOCRATS ARE JUST AS BAD won't transmute Jeff Sessions into Eric Holder. You get the difference between executive and legislative branches, right? As long as the hysteria dies, so long as we hear no more talk of fascism and "concentration camps" ...then sure. But you do know that the legislative branch has the power to stop this crime against humanity? I must have misjudged how important this was to the left! Nevermind everyone! So you agree to the reality that this is an executive branch policy that is creating the crisis? Do you accept this reality? Read the words of the administration I quoted above and have linked again below if you are confused. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/19/ag-jeff-sessions-trumps-unwavering-voice-zero-tolerance/714035002/EDIT: for completeness, any assertions that this policy is okay because THE LEFT IS TOO HYSTERICAL are invalid. No amount of hollywood people being too triggering for your sensibilities will make putting kids in cages okay. No amount of alleged hypocrisy somewhere, someway, somehow, will make the actions of the present administration okay. What Jeff/DJT/ICE are doing is immoral on its own, no matter how good, bad, or ridiculous any of THE LEFT are.
Who exactly are you arguing with? Have you confused me with someone else? It's besides the point. Whether it's executive policy or a straight forward reading of law, Congress can change it.
Edit:also, I don't think I've laid out my exact position yet. All this ridiculousness is obvious without even considering what I think.
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On June 20 2018 10:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:07 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:49 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:32 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump.
The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. How many pages are you going to go on pretending the facts fit your narrative? Does it matter that you have no facts to back up your assertions? The facts are out there. This crisis started with with he Sessions zero tolerance policy.
The Central American refugee crisis developed during President Barack Obama’s administration and continues under Trump. The two administrations have taken different approaches. The Justice Department under Obama prioritized the deportation of dangerous people. Once he took office, Trump issued an executive order rolling back much of the Obama-era framework.
Obama’s guidelines prioritized the deportation of gang members, those who posed a national security risk and those who had committed felonies. Trump’s January 2017 executive order does not include a priority list for deportations and refers only to “criminal offenses,” which is broad enough to encompass serious felonies as well as misdemeanors.
Then, in April 2018, Attorney General Jeff Sessions rolled out the zero-tolerance policy.
The doublespeak coming from Trump and top administration officials on this issue is breathtaking, not only because of the sheer audacity of these claims but also because they keep being repeated without evidence. Immigrant families are being separated at the border not because of Democrats and not because some law forces this result, as Trump insists. They’re being separated because the Trump administration, under its zero-tolerance policy, is choosing to prosecute border-crossing adults for any offenses.
This includes illegal-entry misdemeanors, which are being prosecuted at a rate not seen in previous administrations. Because the act of crossing itself is now being treated as an offense worthy of prosecution, any family that enters the United States illegally is likely to end up separated. Nielsen may choose not to call this a “family separation policy,” but that’s precisely the effect it has.
Sessions, who otherwise owns up to what’s happening, has suggested that the Flores settlement and a court ruling are forcing his hand. They’re not. At heart, this is an issue of prosecutorial discretion: his discretion.
The Trump administration owns this family-separation policy, and its spin deserves Four Pinocchios.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?utm_term=.2a86bf8434f4EDIT: here is the memo. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download That doesn't even address, let alone refute what I said. On June 20 2018 09:26 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump.
The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. Obama was in office in April, 2018? Jeff Sessions was his AG? Are you even reading what you're responding to? One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas. Another one is a abandoned and repurposed Walmart. Some are dention facilities built before 2016 with state and federal money. Trump and Sessions filled them with children taken from their parents. They are the ones that have created the policy that detained 50k people. The existence of the buildings did not invite this crisis. And if those buildings did not exist, the administration would find others. This is the fault of the current administration. One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas Yeah... You won't see me argue that Trump hasn't made the whole thing worse than it was but this is so far from specifically his fault it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the incredibly narrow perspective it takes to even suggest it,despite your recent admission to the complacency you're effectively defending now. Because pointing fingers at who was more or less complicate is a waste of time. All it does is make the people that might work with me defensive and less likely to help. I’ll focus on my own complicity and leave everyone else to their own bullshit. Prisons and detention facilities are going to be built, with or without my approval or condemnation. I prefer to focus my efforts in how people are treated when they end up there and on things like criminal justice reform. I'm the one who thinks the atrocious pictures we saw during the Obama administration were already a crisis, it's folks like you, ayaz, and wulfey that finally think it's gone too far. The concession that there's going to be more prisons/facilities and they'll be built by and filled with Democrats you'll vote for is the very line of complacency that led us here to shouting pointlessly into the void and abdicating real culpability for the conditions that got us Trump. Neither side has any intention of doing anything because they both want the issue to rally voters, the people in the camps are little more than political fodder for both sides of this argument and it's gross at this point.
As I said, finger pointing at potential allies about complicity is not productive. I objected to the deportation under Obama too, but I’m not going to pat myself on the back for it.
And a cynical part of me thinks the progressives don’t want to fix the problem either. They want to beat the centrist democrats, put in place single payer healthcare, student loans reform and this crisis is a great way to attack the centrist democrats. But they will forget the asylum seekers and immigrants the instant they get enough power to push their agenda. I choose not to indulge that cynicism.
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On June 20 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:10 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 10:04 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 10:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:58 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:53 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump.
The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump.
The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. Maybe if Mitch let them write the bill or have some sort of input, he might get someplace. But that isn’t what is happening. The bill is going to be tailored to meet Republican concerns and then given to democrats to make up the remaining votes. Senators don’t often vote for legislation they can’t help write. And again, there is a much quicker solution available. Schumer dismissed it out of hand. He said they want to "keep the focus" on Trump. Doesn't think they should have to have legislation, after introducing their own. “There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.” And be sure to see my edit about their plan. On June 20 2018 09:53 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump.
The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump.
The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. I'm partisan in the sense I think both Republicans and Democrats are awful, but the former are actively supporting a man that is a fascist. I don't think he's competent enough to be a dictator in waiting, but if you look at the way his administration treats the dispossessed he is undoubtedly a fascist. The kids being kept in cages is heart breaking, but co operating with Ted Cruz on legislation only solves a specific short term problem while engendering a lot of good will for a Republican Party that is semi-uncomfortable with being fascistic right now, and thus wants to return back to good old facist-enabling conservatism. This is a pretty remarkable statement. Anyone else care to endorse this position? (Stop me if I sound anymore like GH). Bruh, it is an executive branch policy (see zero-tolerance policy linked in detail above) that is creating the crisis. This is not a matter for legislative branch fixes. Schumer rightly wants the executive branch situation fixed first, then legislative branch solutions pursued. A hastily written bill by the legislative branch won't undo the Trump/Sessions zero-tolerance policy. BUT DEMOCRATS ARE JUST AS BAD won't transmute Jeff Sessions into Eric Holder. You get the difference between executive and legislative branches, right? As long as the hysteria dies, so long as we hear no more talk of fascism and "concentration camps" ...then sure. But you do know that the legislative branch has the power to stop this crime against humanity? I must have misjudged how important this was to the left! Nevermind everyone! So you agree to the reality that this is an executive branch policy that is creating the crisis? Do you accept this reality? Read the words of the administration I quoted above and have linked again below if you are confused. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/19/ag-jeff-sessions-trumps-unwavering-voice-zero-tolerance/714035002/EDIT: for completeness, any assertions that this policy is okay because THE LEFT IS TOO HYSTERICAL are invalid. No amount of hollywood people being too triggering for your sensibilities will make putting kids in cages okay. No amount of alleged hypocrisy somewhere, someway, somehow, will make the actions of the present administration okay. What Jeff/DJT/ICE are doing is immoral on its own, no matter how good, bad, or ridiculous any of THE LEFT are. Who exactly are you arguing with? Have you confused me with someone else? It's besides the point. Whether it's executive policy or a straight forward reading of law, Congress can change it.
No. Whether it is executive branch policy or whether it is actually legislatively required is a dramatic difference. If it was actually legislatively required (no, it is not, see here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?utm_term=.ec42e94236a8), then there would need to be a change to the laws with bicameral passage before the kids could be gotten out of the cages. But this is not the case. This is an executive branch policy that was enacted this year.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download
Because is an executive branch policy, it can be reversed. The priority is that the executive branch stop putting kids in cages. Apportioning partisan blame in the legislature does not change that DJT and Jeff made this crisis with their policy.
"I have put in place a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry on our southwest border," Sessions said then. "If you cross this border unlawfully, then we will prosecute you. It's that simple.
"If you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you and that child will be separated from you as required by law."
This is bullshit, they don't need to do this, but they have chose to do this. They could choose not to, as previous administrations did, but DJT/Sessions have gone with cages and brutality.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/19/ag-jeff-sessions-trumps-unwavering-voice-zero-tolerance/714035002/
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On June 20 2018 10:27 Wulfey_LA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 10:10 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 10:04 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 10:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:58 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:53 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this."
And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it.
This reeks.
Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this."
And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it.
This reeks.
Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. Maybe if Mitch let them write the bill or have some sort of input, he might get someplace. But that isn’t what is happening. The bill is going to be tailored to meet Republican concerns and then given to democrats to make up the remaining votes. Senators don’t often vote for legislation they can’t help write. And again, there is a much quicker solution available. Schumer dismissed it out of hand. He said they want to "keep the focus" on Trump. Doesn't think they should have to have legislation, after introducing their own. “There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.” And be sure to see my edit about their plan. On June 20 2018 09:53 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this."
And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it.
This reeks.
Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this."
And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it.
This reeks.
Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. I'm partisan in the sense I think both Republicans and Democrats are awful, but the former are actively supporting a man that is a fascist. I don't think he's competent enough to be a dictator in waiting, but if you look at the way his administration treats the dispossessed he is undoubtedly a fascist. The kids being kept in cages is heart breaking, but co operating with Ted Cruz on legislation only solves a specific short term problem while engendering a lot of good will for a Republican Party that is semi-uncomfortable with being fascistic right now, and thus wants to return back to good old facist-enabling conservatism. This is a pretty remarkable statement. Anyone else care to endorse this position? (Stop me if I sound anymore like GH). Bruh, it is an executive branch policy (see zero-tolerance policy linked in detail above) that is creating the crisis. This is not a matter for legislative branch fixes. Schumer rightly wants the executive branch situation fixed first, then legislative branch solutions pursued. A hastily written bill by the legislative branch won't undo the Trump/Sessions zero-tolerance policy. BUT DEMOCRATS ARE JUST AS BAD won't transmute Jeff Sessions into Eric Holder. You get the difference between executive and legislative branches, right? As long as the hysteria dies, so long as we hear no more talk of fascism and "concentration camps" ...then sure. But you do know that the legislative branch has the power to stop this crime against humanity? I must have misjudged how important this was to the left! Nevermind everyone! So you agree to the reality that this is an executive branch policy that is creating the crisis? Do you accept this reality? Read the words of the administration I quoted above and have linked again below if you are confused. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/19/ag-jeff-sessions-trumps-unwavering-voice-zero-tolerance/714035002/EDIT: for completeness, any assertions that this policy is okay because THE LEFT IS TOO HYSTERICAL are invalid. No amount of hollywood people being too triggering for your sensibilities will make putting kids in cages okay. No amount of alleged hypocrisy somewhere, someway, somehow, will make the actions of the present administration okay. What Jeff/DJT/ICE are doing is immoral on its own, no matter how good, bad, or ridiculous any of THE LEFT are. Who exactly are you arguing with? Have you confused me with someone else? It's besides the point. Whether it's executive policy or a straight forward reading of law, Congress can change it. No. Whether it is executive branch policy or whether it is actually legislatively required is a dramatic difference. If it was actually legislatively required (no, it is not, see here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?utm_term=.ec42e94236a8), then there would need to be a change to the laws with bicameral passage before the kids could be gotten out of the cages. But this is not the case. This is an executive branch policy that was enacted this year. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/downloadBecause is an executive branch policy, it can be reversed. The priority is that the executive branch stop putting kids in cages. Apportioning partisan blame in the legislature does not change that DJT and Jeff made this crisis with their policy. Show nested quote +
"I have put in place a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry on our southwest border," Sessions said then. "If you cross this border unlawfully, then we will prosecute you. It's that simple.
"If you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you and that child will be separated from you as required by law."
This is bullshit, they don't need to do this, but they have chose to do this. They could choose not to, as previous administrations did, but DJT/Sessions have gone with cages and brutality. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/19/ag-jeff-sessions-trumps-unwavering-voice-zero-tolerance/714035002/
You're so absorbed in making your own point you can't comprehend mine.
This may be the final time, but I'll try again.
When your position is that this is an awful, inhumane policy, worthy of the language of Nazi Germany, then you say that Congress shouldn't act because it's an administration policy that doesn't require legislation, it seems like A) you don't think the plight of these kids is as bad as you say, and B) you just want to use this as a political football.
Nevermind that the people you are defending just last week put out their own bill they claimed would stop this humanitarian crisis. Now it's not their problem?
No one buys that this is some principled "we don't have to clean up after you" position. Are those on your side not constantly complaining that the legislature won't stand up to the president? "We shouldn't act to remove his tariff authority or power to make war, he should exercise them correctly!" And I though the left and right could finally unite on the scary power of the president in modern America!
edit: as a final note, Congress explicitly has the constitutional power on immigration and naturalization, and their dereliction of duty on that front is at least partially to blame for waves of people attempting to illegally enter.
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On June 20 2018 10:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 10:07 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:49 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:32 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this."
And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it.
This reeks.
Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. How many pages are you going to go on pretending the facts fit your narrative? Does it matter that you have no facts to back up your assertions? The facts are out there. This crisis started with with he Sessions zero tolerance policy.
The Central American refugee crisis developed during President Barack Obama’s administration and continues under Trump. The two administrations have taken different approaches. The Justice Department under Obama prioritized the deportation of dangerous people. Once he took office, Trump issued an executive order rolling back much of the Obama-era framework.
Obama’s guidelines prioritized the deportation of gang members, those who posed a national security risk and those who had committed felonies. Trump’s January 2017 executive order does not include a priority list for deportations and refers only to “criminal offenses,” which is broad enough to encompass serious felonies as well as misdemeanors.
Then, in April 2018, Attorney General Jeff Sessions rolled out the zero-tolerance policy.
The doublespeak coming from Trump and top administration officials on this issue is breathtaking, not only because of the sheer audacity of these claims but also because they keep being repeated without evidence. Immigrant families are being separated at the border not because of Democrats and not because some law forces this result, as Trump insists. They’re being separated because the Trump administration, under its zero-tolerance policy, is choosing to prosecute border-crossing adults for any offenses.
This includes illegal-entry misdemeanors, which are being prosecuted at a rate not seen in previous administrations. Because the act of crossing itself is now being treated as an offense worthy of prosecution, any family that enters the United States illegally is likely to end up separated. Nielsen may choose not to call this a “family separation policy,” but that’s precisely the effect it has.
Sessions, who otherwise owns up to what’s happening, has suggested that the Flores settlement and a court ruling are forcing his hand. They’re not. At heart, this is an issue of prosecutorial discretion: his discretion.
The Trump administration owns this family-separation policy, and its spin deserves Four Pinocchios.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?utm_term=.2a86bf8434f4EDIT: here is the memo. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download That doesn't even address, let alone refute what I said. On June 20 2018 09:26 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this."
And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it.
This reeks.
Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. Obama was in office in April, 2018? Jeff Sessions was his AG? Are you even reading what you're responding to? One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas. Another one is a abandoned and repurposed Walmart. Some are dention facilities built before 2016 with state and federal money. Trump and Sessions filled them with children taken from their parents. They are the ones that have created the policy that detained 50k people. The existence of the buildings did not invite this crisis. And if those buildings did not exist, the administration would find others. This is the fault of the current administration. One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas Yeah... You won't see me argue that Trump hasn't made the whole thing worse than it was but this is so far from specifically his fault it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the incredibly narrow perspective it takes to even suggest it,despite your recent admission to the complacency you're effectively defending now. Because pointing fingers at who was more or less complicate is a waste of time. All it does is make the people that might work with me defensive and less likely to help. I’ll focus on my own complicity and leave everyone else to their own bullshit. Prisons and detention facilities are going to be built, with or without my approval or condemnation. I prefer to focus my efforts in how people are treated when they end up there and on things like criminal justice reform. I'm the one who thinks the atrocious pictures we saw during the Obama administration were already a crisis, it's folks like you, ayaz, and wulfey that finally think it's gone too far. The concession that there's going to be more prisons/facilities and they'll be built by and filled with Democrats you'll vote for is the very line of complacency that led us here to shouting pointlessly into the void and abdicating real culpability for the conditions that got us Trump. Neither side has any intention of doing anything because they both want the issue to rally voters, the people in the camps are little more than political fodder for both sides of this argument and it's gross at this point. As I said, finger pointing at potential allies about complicity is not productive. I objected to the deportation under Obama too, but I’m not going to pat myself on the back for it. And a cynical part of me thinks the progressives don’t want to fix the problem either. They want to beat the centrist democrats, put in place single payer healthcare, student loans reform and this crisis is a great way to attack the centrist democrats. But they will forget the asylum seekers and immigrants the instant they get enough power to push their agenda. I choose not to indulge that cynicism.
Real allies are forged not coddled. I wouldn't pat you on the back either if you consider even your current position opposition to such policy.
It would be impossible to entertain the cynicism of the progressives without acknowledging the unabashed cynicism of centrists which you're slowly recognizing as the enormous problem it is.
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On June 20 2018 10:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:07 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:49 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:32 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump.
The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. How many pages are you going to go on pretending the facts fit your narrative? Does it matter that you have no facts to back up your assertions? The facts are out there. This crisis started with with he Sessions zero tolerance policy.
The Central American refugee crisis developed during President Barack Obama’s administration and continues under Trump. The two administrations have taken different approaches. The Justice Department under Obama prioritized the deportation of dangerous people. Once he took office, Trump issued an executive order rolling back much of the Obama-era framework.
Obama’s guidelines prioritized the deportation of gang members, those who posed a national security risk and those who had committed felonies. Trump’s January 2017 executive order does not include a priority list for deportations and refers only to “criminal offenses,” which is broad enough to encompass serious felonies as well as misdemeanors.
Then, in April 2018, Attorney General Jeff Sessions rolled out the zero-tolerance policy.
The doublespeak coming from Trump and top administration officials on this issue is breathtaking, not only because of the sheer audacity of these claims but also because they keep being repeated without evidence. Immigrant families are being separated at the border not because of Democrats and not because some law forces this result, as Trump insists. They’re being separated because the Trump administration, under its zero-tolerance policy, is choosing to prosecute border-crossing adults for any offenses.
This includes illegal-entry misdemeanors, which are being prosecuted at a rate not seen in previous administrations. Because the act of crossing itself is now being treated as an offense worthy of prosecution, any family that enters the United States illegally is likely to end up separated. Nielsen may choose not to call this a “family separation policy,” but that’s precisely the effect it has.
Sessions, who otherwise owns up to what’s happening, has suggested that the Flores settlement and a court ruling are forcing his hand. They’re not. At heart, this is an issue of prosecutorial discretion: his discretion.
The Trump administration owns this family-separation policy, and its spin deserves Four Pinocchios.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?utm_term=.2a86bf8434f4EDIT: here is the memo. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download That doesn't even address, let alone refute what I said. On June 20 2018 09:26 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump.
The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. Obama was in office in April, 2018? Jeff Sessions was his AG? Are you even reading what you're responding to? One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas. Another one is a abandoned and repurposed Walmart. Some are dention facilities built before 2016 with state and federal money. Trump and Sessions filled them with children taken from their parents. They are the ones that have created the policy that detained 50k people. The existence of the buildings did not invite this crisis. And if those buildings did not exist, the administration would find others. This is the fault of the current administration. One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas Yeah... You won't see me argue that Trump hasn't made the whole thing worse than it was but this is so far from specifically his fault it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the incredibly narrow perspective it takes to even suggest it,despite your recent admission to the complacency you're effectively defending now. Because pointing fingers at who was more or less complicate is a waste of time. All it does is make the people that might work with me defensive and less likely to help. I’ll focus on my own complicity and leave everyone else to their own bullshit. Prisons and detention facilities are going to be built, with or without my approval or condemnation. I prefer to focus my efforts in how people are treated when they end up there and on things like criminal justice reform. I'm the one who thinks the atrocious pictures we saw during the Obama administration were already a crisis, it's folks like you, ayaz, and wulfey that finally think it's gone too far. The concession that there's going to be more prisons/facilities and they'll be built by and filled with Democrats you'll vote for is the very line of complacency that led us here to shouting pointlessly into the void and abdicating real culpability for the conditions that got us Trump. Neither side has any intention of doing anything because they both want the issue to rally voters, the people in the camps are little more than political fodder for both sides of this argument and it's gross at this point.
Equating the Obama immigration policy with the Trump immigration policy is like equating the few instances of false reporting in the media today to Fox news. Your black and white perspective is not what we need. Everything has a gray area. Be it Maddow's false claim about transvaginal abortions, "you can keep your doctor!", "I will create great healthcare for all Americans", or "these are mdidle class tax cuts", these things exist with context. Some are small lies, some are mistakes, and some are huge brainwashing lies. And for the record, what is happening now is far worse than what Obama did. This whataboutism and false equivalence is getting old.
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On June 20 2018 10:40 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:27 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 10:17 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 10:10 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 10:04 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 10:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:58 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:53 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:
[quote]
Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now?
This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. Maybe if Mitch let them write the bill or have some sort of input, he might get someplace. But that isn’t what is happening. The bill is going to be tailored to meet Republican concerns and then given to democrats to make up the remaining votes. Senators don’t often vote for legislation they can’t help write. And again, there is a much quicker solution available. Schumer dismissed it out of hand. He said they want to "keep the focus" on Trump. Doesn't think they should have to have legislation, after introducing their own. “There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.” And be sure to see my edit about their plan. On June 20 2018 09:53 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:
[quote]
Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now?
This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. I'm partisan in the sense I think both Republicans and Democrats are awful, but the former are actively supporting a man that is a fascist. I don't think he's competent enough to be a dictator in waiting, but if you look at the way his administration treats the dispossessed he is undoubtedly a fascist. The kids being kept in cages is heart breaking, but co operating with Ted Cruz on legislation only solves a specific short term problem while engendering a lot of good will for a Republican Party that is semi-uncomfortable with being fascistic right now, and thus wants to return back to good old facist-enabling conservatism. This is a pretty remarkable statement. Anyone else care to endorse this position? (Stop me if I sound anymore like GH). Bruh, it is an executive branch policy (see zero-tolerance policy linked in detail above) that is creating the crisis. This is not a matter for legislative branch fixes. Schumer rightly wants the executive branch situation fixed first, then legislative branch solutions pursued. A hastily written bill by the legislative branch won't undo the Trump/Sessions zero-tolerance policy. BUT DEMOCRATS ARE JUST AS BAD won't transmute Jeff Sessions into Eric Holder. You get the difference between executive and legislative branches, right? As long as the hysteria dies, so long as we hear no more talk of fascism and "concentration camps" ...then sure. But you do know that the legislative branch has the power to stop this crime against humanity? I must have misjudged how important this was to the left! Nevermind everyone! So you agree to the reality that this is an executive branch policy that is creating the crisis? Do you accept this reality? Read the words of the administration I quoted above and have linked again below if you are confused. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/19/ag-jeff-sessions-trumps-unwavering-voice-zero-tolerance/714035002/EDIT: for completeness, any assertions that this policy is okay because THE LEFT IS TOO HYSTERICAL are invalid. No amount of hollywood people being too triggering for your sensibilities will make putting kids in cages okay. No amount of alleged hypocrisy somewhere, someway, somehow, will make the actions of the present administration okay. What Jeff/DJT/ICE are doing is immoral on its own, no matter how good, bad, or ridiculous any of THE LEFT are. Who exactly are you arguing with? Have you confused me with someone else? It's besides the point. Whether it's executive policy or a straight forward reading of law, Congress can change it. No. Whether it is executive branch policy or whether it is actually legislatively required is a dramatic difference. If it was actually legislatively required (no, it is not, see here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?utm_term=.ec42e94236a8), then there would need to be a change to the laws with bicameral passage before the kids could be gotten out of the cages. But this is not the case. This is an executive branch policy that was enacted this year. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/downloadBecause is an executive branch policy, it can be reversed. The priority is that the executive branch stop putting kids in cages. Apportioning partisan blame in the legislature does not change that DJT and Jeff made this crisis with their policy.
"I have put in place a zero tolerance policy for illegal entry on our southwest border," Sessions said then. "If you cross this border unlawfully, then we will prosecute you. It's that simple.
"If you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you and that child will be separated from you as required by law."
This is bullshit, they don't need to do this, but they have chose to do this. They could choose not to, as previous administrations did, but DJT/Sessions have gone with cages and brutality. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/06/19/ag-jeff-sessions-trumps-unwavering-voice-zero-tolerance/714035002/ You're so absorbed in making your own point you can't comprehend mine. This may be the final time, but I'll try again. When your position is that this is an awful, inhumane policy, worthy of the language of Nazi Germany, then you say that Congress shouldn't act because it's an administration policy that doesn't require legislation, it seems like A) you don't think the plight of these kids is as bad as you say, and B) you just want to use this as a political football. Nevermind that the people you are defending just last week put out their own bill they claimed would stop this humanitarian crisis. Now it's not their problem? No one buys that this is some principled "we don't have to clean up after you" position. Are those on your side not constantly complaining that the legislature won't stand up to the president? "We shouldn't act to remove his tariff authority or power to make war, he should exercise them correctly!" And I though the left and right could finally unite on the scary power of the president in modern America! edit: as a final note, Congress explicitly has the constitutional power on immigration and naturalization, and their dereliction of duty on that front is at least partially to blame for waves of people attempting to illegally enter.
Congress does not have the power over how the civil code is enforced however. Or over who gets prosecuted and who does not. They can place limits on the executive branch and limit this policy, but they cannot force the administration to comply or not take a new, equally terrible approach to discourage immigration.
Again, you are operating under the assumption that everyone is playing by the rules. Once the president set up prison camps with cages for kids he orders taken away from their parents, the rules of human decency no longer applied. There is no legelative solution for that one.
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On June 20 2018 11:18 Ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 10:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 10:07 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:49 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:32 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this."
And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it.
This reeks.
Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. How many pages are you going to go on pretending the facts fit your narrative? Does it matter that you have no facts to back up your assertions? The facts are out there. This crisis started with with he Sessions zero tolerance policy.
The Central American refugee crisis developed during President Barack Obama’s administration and continues under Trump. The two administrations have taken different approaches. The Justice Department under Obama prioritized the deportation of dangerous people. Once he took office, Trump issued an executive order rolling back much of the Obama-era framework.
Obama’s guidelines prioritized the deportation of gang members, those who posed a national security risk and those who had committed felonies. Trump’s January 2017 executive order does not include a priority list for deportations and refers only to “criminal offenses,” which is broad enough to encompass serious felonies as well as misdemeanors.
Then, in April 2018, Attorney General Jeff Sessions rolled out the zero-tolerance policy.
The doublespeak coming from Trump and top administration officials on this issue is breathtaking, not only because of the sheer audacity of these claims but also because they keep being repeated without evidence. Immigrant families are being separated at the border not because of Democrats and not because some law forces this result, as Trump insists. They’re being separated because the Trump administration, under its zero-tolerance policy, is choosing to prosecute border-crossing adults for any offenses.
This includes illegal-entry misdemeanors, which are being prosecuted at a rate not seen in previous administrations. Because the act of crossing itself is now being treated as an offense worthy of prosecution, any family that enters the United States illegally is likely to end up separated. Nielsen may choose not to call this a “family separation policy,” but that’s precisely the effect it has.
Sessions, who otherwise owns up to what’s happening, has suggested that the Flores settlement and a court ruling are forcing his hand. They’re not. At heart, this is an issue of prosecutorial discretion: his discretion.
The Trump administration owns this family-separation policy, and its spin deserves Four Pinocchios.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?utm_term=.2a86bf8434f4EDIT: here is the memo. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download That doesn't even address, let alone refute what I said. On June 20 2018 09:26 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this."
And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it.
This reeks.
Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. The majority of the facilities we've seen and he's using were used during the Obama administration. I mean I get the political advantage of trying to push this onto Trump/Republicans but it reminds me of the House singing in celebration when Republicans won a vote to take away healthcare from millions of people. Obama was in office in April, 2018? Jeff Sessions was his AG? Are you even reading what you're responding to? One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas. Another one is a abandoned and repurposed Walmart. Some are dention facilities built before 2016 with state and federal money. Trump and Sessions filled them with children taken from their parents. They are the ones that have created the policy that detained 50k people. The existence of the buildings did not invite this crisis. And if those buildings did not exist, the administration would find others. This is the fault of the current administration. One of the camps was built recently on the boarder of Texas Yeah... You won't see me argue that Trump hasn't made the whole thing worse than it was but this is so far from specifically his fault it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the incredibly narrow perspective it takes to even suggest it,despite your recent admission to the complacency you're effectively defending now. Because pointing fingers at who was more or less complicate is a waste of time. All it does is make the people that might work with me defensive and less likely to help. I’ll focus on my own complicity and leave everyone else to their own bullshit. Prisons and detention facilities are going to be built, with or without my approval or condemnation. I prefer to focus my efforts in how people are treated when they end up there and on things like criminal justice reform. I'm the one who thinks the atrocious pictures we saw during the Obama administration were already a crisis, it's folks like you, ayaz, and wulfey that finally think it's gone too far. The concession that there's going to be more prisons/facilities and they'll be built by and filled with Democrats you'll vote for is the very line of complacency that led us here to shouting pointlessly into the void and abdicating real culpability for the conditions that got us Trump. Neither side has any intention of doing anything because they both want the issue to rally voters, the people in the camps are little more than political fodder for both sides of this argument and it's gross at this point. Equating the Obama immigration policy with the Trump immigration policy is like equating the few instances of false reporting in the media today to Fox news. Your black and white perspective is not what we need. Everything has a gray area. Be it Maddow's false claim about transvaginal abortions, "you can keep your doctor!", "I will create great healthcare for all Americans", or "these are mdidle class tax cuts", these things exist with context. Some are small lies, some are mistakes, and some are huge brainwashing lies. And for the record, what is happening now is far worse than what Obama did. This whataboutism and false equivalence is getting old.
It seems you don't understand the argument I'm making at all. I don't think they are equivalent. The question is what is acceptable.
It's not as if I expect 'news' agencies to stop lying and manipulating people for viewers/dollars/their owners overnight. It's the "but it's all about the other side" stuff that I find especially counterproductive.
Sure "They're worse" is a simple point I've long agreed with (at least in the same way the KKK was worse than the white moderate), but if that's the measure by which we judge what is acceptable the further lurching to the right is inevitable.
Imagine for a moment Trump wasn't amping up the cruelty, but instead just doing exactly what Obama was doing? Would it magically transition from a necessary evil to unacceptable? Or imagine it was Hillary simply continuing Obama's policy. Is it acceptable or should people be in the streets demanding they should stop caging and shipping kids fleeing horrible conditions we often helped bring about back to their countries to send their parents a message that they aren't welcome?
It's the laser focus on Trump's role in exposing the horrific nature of all this by removing the pretext and upping the cruelty that neglects the critically important circumstances that made it possible.
I get people here want to bash Republicans because they think that is more helpful than introspection and reflection or holding their own accountable, it's just when people say things like "Trump built these places" or "news to me" it indicates to me that the horrific stuff that preceded this was tolerable enough for them to accept returning to and would criticize those agitating against that as impediments to progress.
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The former director of ICE was interviewed about the current policy. He predicts that the US government is currently on the path of orphaning a massive number of children. Due to the separate legal tracks for children and adult, the parents could be deported in weeks while the children remain in the US. They will never find each other again, because the US government is terrible at keeping track of kids.
Furthermore, he pushes back against the assertion that this will deter asylum seekers. The US can’t match the suffering the asylum seekers are fleeing, so they won’t stop coming. And he sees no sign this policy will end in the near future.
Also related:
We are not prepared to care for these children. Our foster system is overwhelmed due to the opioid crisis. If their paper work gets lost, they can’t tell us who they are and where they came from.
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You can't advocate for something being wrong and at the same time advocate for it to continue. I get that you don't think a legislative action wouldn't do much to deter the immigration policy but something, even at the least symbolically, is better then nothing. You become the partisan when you want it to continue because it scores you political points. That its happened should be enough for you and you should push to have it ended.
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On June 20 2018 12:01 Sermokala wrote:
You can't advocate for something being wrong and at the same time advocate for it to continue. I get that you don't think a legislative action wouldn't do much to deter the immigration policy but something, even at the least symbolically, is better then nothing. You become the partisan when you want it to continue because it scores you political points. That its happened should be enough for you and you should push to have it ended.
I agree on some level, but the plan from Mitch McConnell isn’t a solution he came up after long consolidation with the minority leadership. It was his standard imperial declaration of the solution he supports, as crafted by his party alone. And the democrats should deliver the votes to move this symbolic bill forward. Every time Trump breaks something, the democrats are expected to eat shit to fix it. And if they don’t eat the shit Mitch provides, they are part of the problem.
I agree that the senate should offer a solution. The majority and minority leadership should craft one together. Act as the Senate, not the Republican controled Senate.
Edit: I would also point out that even if this crisis ended due to legislation, we would go back to the status quo of Trump slapping tariffs on our allies, destroying 70 year alliances, deporting the dreamers and gutting our lack luster healthcare system.
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On June 20 2018 10:06 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 09:58 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:53 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 07:29 Introvert wrote:"We want to keep the focus on Trump" is precisely the Dem strategy, nice to see them say it. He just rejects everything out of hand, amazing. Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
"There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense," Schumer told reporters. "Legislation is not the way to go here when it's so easy for the president to sign it."
Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.
"Again, the president can change it with his pen," he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor. rest here (in a hurry) http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 07:29 Introvert wrote:"We want to keep the focus on Trump" is precisely the Dem strategy, nice to see them say it. He just rejects everything out of hand, amazing. Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
"There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense," Schumer told reporters. "Legislation is not the way to go here when it's so easy for the president to sign it."
Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.
"Again, the president can change it with his pen," he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor. rest here (in a hurry) http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. Maybe if Mitch let them write the bill or have some sort of input, he might get someplace. But that isn’t what is happening. The bill is going to be tailored to meet Republican concerns and then given to democrats to make up the remaining votes. Senators don’t often vote for legislation they can’t help write. And again, there is a much quicker solution available. Schumer dismissed it out of hand. He said they want to "keep the focus" on Trump. Doesn't think they should have to have legislation, after introducing their own. “There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.” And be sure to see my edit about their plan. On June 20 2018 09:53 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:48 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 09:17 kollin wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 07:29 Introvert wrote:"We want to keep the focus on Trump" is precisely the Dem strategy, nice to see them say it. He just rejects everything out of hand, amazing. Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
"There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense," Schumer told reporters. "Legislation is not the way to go here when it's so easy for the president to sign it."
Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.
"Again, the president can change it with his pen," he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor. rest here (in a hurry) http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Republicans supported Trump, despite it being evidently clear that he was fascistic. Democrats should not appease them in any way - the whole party deserves to burn for this (not that the Democrats should have a remotely clean conscience either but that's beside the point). On June 20 2018 09:17 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 09:08 Introvert wrote:On June 20 2018 07:56 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 07:29 Introvert wrote:"We want to keep the focus on Trump" is precisely the Dem strategy, nice to see them say it. He just rejects everything out of hand, amazing. Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
"There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense," Schumer told reporters. "Legislation is not the way to go here when it's so easy for the president to sign it."
Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump.
"Again, the president can change it with his pen," he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor. rest here (in a hurry) http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis I feel like this article is blaming the democrats for have a strategy to deal with a crisis they had no hand in making and warned against. The Republicans has in congress want the focus on democrats, and the democrats are not interested in cleaning up after Trump. The democrats had put forth a bill they all supported to stop this. Mitch decided to ignore that bill and have the republicans draft their own. And from what I hear, the democrats didn’t get a say on the language in the bill. If we literally have concentration camps on the border, then isn't the overriding concern the children? Is this not the entirely of the Democrat talking points? Ask for the GOP to stand up to Trump, some might actually do so, Senate Democrats say "nah, Trump should handle this." And finally, we have the fact that a week or so ago the Democrats proposed their own bill on this topic, like you. Now it was a bad one, rushed out for PR. But every Senate dem signed on to it. Now they're like "We're out." They've dismissed anything else without even seeing it. This reeks. Who built the concentration camps? Is he in office? Can he veto whatever bill the Republicans are putting right now? This is Trumps problem to fix. Congress can do it, but the democrats are willing to be the problem solvers here. After weeks of calling Congress cowards (on things like tariffs) we have an issue where a large part of Congress might actually get involved and now it's "you guys should own it." Might I suggest that if this is your position, you don't actually think Trump is a fascistic dictator-in-waiting. It also calls into question the sincerity of the concern for those suffering in "concentration camps." "Trump is a lawless fascist." also "Congress should do nothing, Republicans made this mess they should clean it up." This is one of the more raw and open displays of partisanship recently, and that's saying a lot. I'm partisan in the sense I think both Republicans and Democrats are awful, but the former are actively supporting a man that is a fascist. I don't think he's competent enough to be a dictator in waiting, but if you look at the way his administration treats the dispossessed he is undoubtedly a fascist. The kids being kept in cages is heart breaking, but co operating with Ted Cruz on legislation only solves a specific short term problem while engendering a lot of good will for a Republican Party that is semi-uncomfortable with being fascistic right now, and thus wants to return back to good old facist-enabling conservatism. This is a pretty remarkable statement. Anyone else care to endorse this position? (Stop me if I sound anymore like GH). Kids in cages is a terrifying symptom of American regression - Trump is the ugly figurehead and Thomas Homan the Himmler - but a piece of legislation will do literally nothing to solve the underlying illness. The Democrats should absolutely and entirely resist any temptation to attempt compromise out of nostalgic longing for a bygone era of bipartisan friendliness, or out of electoral calculation. I really struggle to see how you can judge the reaction to this as hysteria, unless you are ultimately one of the level-headed, moderate centrist classically liberal Americans who will insist that the boat's unsinkable even though the iceberg has been hit.
Right, "this doesn't solve everything so let the kids rot in cages for the greater good of us winning in 2018." This was you yesterday:
On June 18 2018 17:20 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2018 10:43 IgnE wrote:On June 18 2018 10:37 Plansix wrote:On June 18 2018 10:33 KwarK wrote:
Any scholar of ancient history would happily remind Krugman that for much of Europe Roman conquest meant genocide. Gaul wasn't Romanized by Caesar, it was simply depopulated and then settled, much like the American west. It is an extremely effective way to have a unified culture. You just need to not ascribe to the theory that all human life has value and then you are off to the races. Or, you could subscribe to the theory that future human life has near infinite value, by virtue of its very very lengthy potential duration and scope, and that we should do everything to maximize future life as quickly possible, even if that means clearing the way for a great civilization like that of the Romans. This sort of utilitarian reasoning is flawed from the offset exactly because it subsumes 'smaller' wrongs such as genocide into the umbrella of the greater good. A utilitarian could easily make the argument that Hitler was a good man because look how good things are now! but that is, I hope, clearly inherently ridiculous.
And here you are now somehow trying to explain to Introvert that your position is somehow consistent.
I also assume you support Trump's tariffs on China, based on this new position? Even if I were to concede America has significant facist elements, facism (at least by your definition) is certainly much stronger in China, no? Do you support America ending all trade with China? How about your own country?
I'm not arguing this last point (the first point was evident hypocrisy) as whataboutism, but as an argument against absolutism in any ethical sense. Absolutism and ethics simply cannot be combined--judgment, tradeoffs, paradoxes, and contradictions come with the territory. Which, while I'm on the topic, I'll call out Trump as committing the largest moral violation here and Democrats as a large violator of their own.
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EDIT: I'm picking on you here but this hypocrisy easily applies to most of the thread.
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People acting stunned and surprised about all this should have seen this coming. Remember on the campaign trail when he defended internment camps? Huh? Half the country wants this and supports it. This is what a overly religious, economically unequal society gets you. A clever con man with large financial backing was the final recipe for this corporate fascist outcome that took decades to build.
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Way this situation is now, we have to put Trump back in the position of a little child. He's been misbehaving for a long time now with one parent letting him get away with things while the other has been trying to keep the kid in line. Now he's fucked up really bad and the lenient parent is asking the one that wanted to be a proper parent to help in a joint effort to clean up the mess for the child instead of making the child do it himself to prove a point.
Unfortunately, we're not talking about something as trivial as a knocked over vase shattered across the floor. We're talking about shattered families.
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On June 20 2018 12:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 12:01 Sermokala wrote:
You can't advocate for something being wrong and at the same time advocate for it to continue. I get that you don't think a legislative action wouldn't do much to deter the immigration policy but something, even at the least symbolically, is better then nothing. You become the partisan when you want it to continue because it scores you political points. That its happened should be enough for you and you should push to have it ended. I agree on some level, but the plan from Mitch McConnell isn’t a solution he came up after long consolidation with the minority leadership. It was his standard imperial declaration of the solution he supports, as crafted by his party alone. And the democrats should deliver the votes to move this symbolic bill forward. Every time Trump breaks something, the democrats are expected to eat shit to fix it. And if they don’t eat the shit Mitch provides, they are part of the problem. I agree that the senate should offer a solution. The majority and minority leadership should craft one together. Act as the Senate, not the Republican controled Senate. Edit: I would also point out that even if this crisis ended due to legislation, we would go back to the status quo of Trump slapping tariffs on our allies, destroying 70 year alliances, deporting the dreamers and gutting our lack luster healthcare system.
What is it about the substance of this Republican bill that Democrats don't like?
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On June 20 2018 13:18 zobz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2018 12:14 Plansix wrote:On June 20 2018 12:01 Sermokala wrote:
You can't advocate for something being wrong and at the same time advocate for it to continue. I get that you don't think a legislative action wouldn't do much to deter the immigration policy but something, even at the least symbolically, is better then nothing. You become the partisan when you want it to continue because it scores you political points. That its happened should be enough for you and you should push to have it ended. I agree on some level, but the plan from Mitch McConnell isn’t a solution he came up after long consolidation with the minority leadership. It was his standard imperial declaration of the solution he supports, as crafted by his party alone. And the democrats should deliver the votes to move this symbolic bill forward. Every time Trump breaks something, the democrats are expected to eat shit to fix it. And if they don’t eat the shit Mitch provides, they are part of the problem. I agree that the senate should offer a solution. The majority and minority leadership should craft one together. Act as the Senate, not the Republican controled Senate. Edit: I would also point out that even if this crisis ended due to legislation, we would go back to the status quo of Trump slapping tariffs on our allies, destroying 70 year alliances, deporting the dreamers and gutting our lack luster healthcare system. What is it about the substance of this Republican bill that Democrats don't like?
It doesn’t exist yet and when it does it will need funding for the wall for Trumps signature. The Republicans don’t have a plan, they just want the Democrats on the hook for some of the fall out.
A US senator addressing just that. For Steve Miller and Sessions, this is all about leverage. Appeasement will not stop him.
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You can all stop pretending like the Republican proposals are anything but fig leaves. DJT has rejected both of them. DJT is the head of the Republican party and a sitting President. The senate R proposals are distractions to give cover for partisans to ignore basic reality.
In his afternoon speech, Mr. Trump dismissed as “crazy” a proposal by Senate Republicans to expedite processing of immigrant families by hiring hundreds of new immigration judges.
Rejecting a proposal by Senator Ted Cruz of Texas to increase personnel in immigration courts with the hiring of 375 new judges, Mr. Trump suggested that many of the immigration judges could be corrupt, and he said that some lawyers who appear in their courtrooms are “bad people.”
Bonus: in case you were confused, yes, it is the executive branch who is pushing these policies. No, the legislative branch is not the solution.
But the broadest Republican opposition to the Trump administration’s policy was in the Senate. Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, and 12 other senators sent a letter to the Justice Department asking the administration to stop the separation of families until Congress can pass legislation. Mr. Hatch told reporters on Monday that the separation policy was “not American.”
This is 100% on President Trump. No, you cannot pawn this off onto someone that isn't the head of the executive branch.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/politics/trump-immigration-children-separated-families.html
EDIT: or maybe Trump also sort of demurred on the proposals as well? Either way, they are DOA because they don't have THE WALL
Huddling with the GOP at the Capitol on Tuesday evening, Trump stopped short of giving a full-throated endorsement to legislation meant to unite the moderate and conservative wings of the House Republican caucus.
Instead, Trump told Republicans in the closed-door strategy session that he would support either of the bills slated for votes later this week.
"He didn't really tell us what bill to vote for," said Rep. Markwayne Mullin, R-Okla., saying Trump laid out his main principles on immigration and told Republicans he "wanted to take care of the kids" - a reference to the unfolding family separation crisis.
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Republicans are eager to find a legislative end to the turmoil sparked by the new "zero tolerance" policy at the border - although Trump in recent days has hinted that only a broader bill that included the border wall and other enforcement measures would pass muster.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-border-family-separation-20180619-story.html
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So at least perhaps the Democrats could cooperate with a bill that was relatively simple and didn't include any compromises on the border wall or anything like that, and put it to Trump and just let him not sign it. You could argue that that would be pointless, sure, but if the Republicans are going to put it together the Democrats may as well sign it.
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EPT
