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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19246 Posts
On February 26 2021 09:59 Stratos_speAr wrote: Senate Parliamentarian axed the $15 minimum wage from the COVID-19 relief bill budget reconciliation. I hope it comes in a serious bill outside of the relief package. I’m open to debate and considering it, but shoving it in on that bill never sat well with me. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
In theory they can redefine rules to include it in reconciliation with a simple majority, but that's probably as hard as destroying the filibuster (as it would formalize the already informal act of reconciliation being able to do anything). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25485 Posts
On February 26 2021 09:24 BisuDagger wrote: A simple answer is I don’t think race is the reason. I think it’s generations of poor education from schools and family elders. I don’t think parents are taking up enough personal responsibility in raising their children. I think it’s higher in the black community because the environment their kids are raised in aren’t giving them a chance to make better decisions during critical coming of age years. I think we need to do our best to help young adults become better role models for the next generation so we can show them the cycle can be broken. Edit: I think there is plenty our government can do to help, but I think as peers in our millennial generation, we need to ween parents of addictive behavior wether it be alcohol, phones, Tv, social media, or video games. I saw two women in the front of a car, both on phones, one driving, the other with a 2 year old in her lap in the front seat. I can tell, regardless of race, that person is a shit parent and setting their kids up for failure. But alcohol is fun  I think a major problem is that education isn’t a level playing field and both having wealth and more time with parents is a huge fucking advantage. Conservative talking points tend to focus on an idealised nuclear family but really it’s having more resources. You’re either pulling two incomes, or you’ve got more parental face time but either way you’re getting better schools, better ability to pay tutors or put kiddo through extra-curricular or you have more parental involvement in education. Outright bad and irresponsible parents are absolutely a problem, and one I feel is both a valid complaint but one often used to deflect from a lack of structural support to various non-married childcare arrangements. You can alleviate at least some of these issues by making both improvements in levelling the playing field in schools and ensuring kids get a reasonably equal level of education from the time they’re not in the house. Poor people regardless of their parental circumstance tend to get worse education, so it’s hardly a surprise they do worse by getting worse resources from a lower starting point. From my experiences home schooling currently there is far, far too much useless busy work in the curriculum, luckily between me and his stepdad he’s got the face time to do it. But still, if you’re grading progress by a ton of ultimately useless stuff and some of which REQUIRES a parent to do it with you, then the kids who have that luxury are going to be doing better. Northern Ireland is strange in that we have prestige grammar schools at your high school equivalent and we (can) sit a test at 10/11 to get into those. I’m reasonably bright and was already hitting A grade in the practice papers we were sitting the year before, not from a wealthy family but not dirt poor but got into one of our best schools, and had friends from very poor backgrounds do so as well. There are many flaws to this system (especially that wealthier families pay for tutors for the test), but NI, the poorest country in the U.K. does outperform the rest of the U.K. in our standardised exams at 16 and 18 and I think that’s partly due to talent from poor backgrounds being given more space to flourish. My mother has a colleague and she’s had no problems as a single parent to 5 kids with Aspergers, up until schools closed and homeschooling came in. If she had one, two kids that’s doable. She’s having to try and pick up and pay attention to 5 different kids studying in different age groups and she’s finishing that process at 9/10 at night and their education is undoubtedly suffering. An extreme example and one pushed by Covid of course but one can be a good parent and still be unable to deliver through sheer practical impossibility. Bit rambling, wasn’t my intention. I think improving access to education, or affordable childcare are sorely lacking. If you fix those the good but struggling parent’s children have a better shot, and even the children of the genuinely awful parents do. Whereas if you say, made welfare more generous it might not help the struggling but well-meaning parent much in terms of options | ||
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Zambrah
United States7312 Posts
On February 26 2021 10:56 Nevuk wrote: There's not going to be any bills without reconciliation for at least two more years, so it is very doubtful that any bills besides this can be considered serious proposals. There weren't 10 GOp senators willing to testify to their own attempted murder, so I'd be amazed if there were 10 willing to consider anything democratic ever. In theory they can redefine rules to include it in reconciliation with a simple majority, but that's probably as hard as destroying the filibuster (as it would formalize the already informal act of reconciliation being able to do anything). This is the kind of stuff I hate out of the Democrats, Republicans are definitely going to overrule the parliamentarian first opportunity they get because they know how to exercise power to get what they want. Pointing at the Republicans for breaking informal processes doesnt have any effect on their elections, pointing at them and doing or saying anything doesn't have consequences for Republicans. Right now I have a hard time imagining that the Republicans don't sweep the midterms and regain the House and Congress and we dont see two years of Joe Biden passing Republican bills. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On February 26 2021 11:11 Zambrah wrote: This is the kind of stuff I hate out of the Democrats, Republicans are definitely going to overrule the parliamentarian first opportunity they get because they know how to exercise power to get what they want. Pointing at the Republicans for breaking informal processes doesnt have any effect on their elections, pointing at them and doing or saying anything doesn't have consequences for Republicans. Right now I have a hard time imagining that the Republicans don't sweep the midterms and regain the House and Congress and we dont see two years of Joe Biden passing Republican bills. Republicans had a chunk of their 2017 tax bill thrown out by the Parliamentarian and they didn't overrule her. Also, Bernie introduced a stand-alone $15 minimum wage bill into the Senate. It doesn't even have full support from Democrats. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On February 26 2021 11:11 Zambrah wrote: This is the kind of stuff I hate out of the Democrats, Republicans are definitely going to overrule the parliamentarian first opportunity they get because they know how to exercise power to get what they want. Pointing at the Republicans for breaking informal processes doesnt have any effect on their elections, pointing at them and doing or saying anything doesn't have consequences for Republicans. Right now I have a hard time imagining that the Republicans don't sweep the midterms and regain the House and Congress and we dont see two years of Joe Biden passing Republican bills. Democrats would override them as well if it was for an issue they deemed "must have", like checks or relief at all. The parliamentarian typically strips the most ridiculous distortions of reconciliation that everyone agrees to be a bit too much of a distortion. Minimum wage was always a large reach and the real solution is reforming the filibuster. Nuking the filibuster is going to be done the second Republicans are in charge again, but Manchin and Sinema don't seem to believe that. There were possible middle grounds that could have been reached (set the starting minimum wage higher than the 15$/hr proposal does, match the scaling of the 15$/hr wage but stop earlier, meaning congress would have to renew it, etc.) but there wasn't much interest in doing it on such an accelerated scale. Manchin's 11$/hr proposal sounds absolutely ridiculous, but it is what would be best for his state. The issue is that this is only because WV is an economic hellhole with no prospects except being born a coal baron billionaire and no one wants to live there (I went to college in Eastern KY and my mother is from the region. Everyone who can get out does). Sidenote: this is precisely where pork barrel legislation is supposed to fit in, but someone killed it early in Obama's term due to some embarassingly bad executions of the principle, like the hundreds of millions for the bridge to nowhere, an alaskan bridge to an island with like 50 people living on it. The idea is that Manchin's state can get pork that it legitimately needs through leveraging it against something that is not in the interest of his state, the 15$/hr minimum wage. If he could trade that for a bunch of government funded construction projects, he probably would, as it would help alleviate the underlying issue of no economic opportunity in his state being why he's opposed to the minimum wage, and then when his constituents whine about losing jobs or not being able to pay workers, he can point to the jobs he's helping create, etc. As for why Sinema opposes it, no fucking clue. Arizona is fine economically, or at least not a dumpster fire that can make some third world countries look appealing. edit: I will note that AOC + squad could probably kill this in the house, but I really doubt they will as it would also kill all relief. She probably understands there really are 2 more cracks at the apple for using reconciliation where this can be fought this year and that relief needs to happen ASAP. Also, note that McConnell became senator in 1984 ... which isn't even a decade after the filibuster was reformed to its current form. The idiotic setup was exploitable by anyone willing to do so. He's not an idiot, but I don't think it takes a genius to exploit a very obvious hole in the wording of a law. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23250 Posts
It's such an easy fight. The package with the minimum wage increase already had ~76% support from the public (60% support from Republicans). Democrats could be seen as fighting for workers by simply not opposing them inching closer to a living wage and they can't even do that. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7312 Posts
On February 26 2021 14:25 LegalLord wrote: Minimum wage getting procedurally cancelled sounds like great cover for the Democrats not really wanting to go to bat for $15/hr, but wanting to have someone else to blame when Republicans aren't a credible excuse at the moment. I don't think voters are going to care about procedural nuances though, like how many people really understand budget reconciliation and the parliamentarian? I think they're just going to see Democrats fail to pass a popular thing when Democrats have the house and senate and presidency. Blaming the Big Bad Republicans isnt even a particularly good strategy, but blaming procedure is definitely going to be something the electorate is either not going to understand or not going to accept. EDIT: There were possible middle grounds that could have been reached (set the starting minimum wage higher than the 15$/hr proposal does, match the scaling of the 15$/hr wage but stop earlier, meaning congress would have to renew it, etc.) but there wasn't much interest in doing it on such an accelerated scale. Why not do that then? Scrapping the whole thing is throwing away a big flashing "We Are Trying To Help You" sign that could save or expand their congressional margins. People probably wouldn't care about any of the adjustments you mentioned, it'd still amount to "15 dollar minimum wage achieved!" that they could campaign on. I can't imagine that two years of Democrats doing what they always do is going to help their election chances in 2022, Democrats lost house seats, and so very barely scraped out a tied Senate against Donald Trump, their "BUT TRUMP" cover is gone (at least til he wins the next nomination...) and I have a hard time imagining that milquetoast Democrats are going to be any sort of surefire win against whatever vaguely palatable Republican (again, presuming Trump doesnt win the next nomination...) becomes the nominee. Even if they make the 15 dollar minimum wage process crappier and worse at least its something they can point to and say that they did. If they're having this much trouble with something thats generally pretty popular are they even going to be able to do anything meaningful at all? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23250 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7312 Posts
On February 26 2021 15:28 GreenHorizons wrote: Worse is that the parliamentarian ruling is advisory so Democrats could do it anyway and are simply choosing not to. And Harris is on recording as supporting a 15 dollar minimum wage so it's not like she has any personal reasons to be against it. I hate that we have two years of this and then they'll lose Congress and they'll go on to their typical "sowwy Repubwicans control Congress we can't do anything now " shtick as the country degrades and degrades. | ||
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Slydie
1922 Posts
On February 25 2021 20:00 GreenHorizons wrote: From slavery to "manifest destiny" to The New Deal (recently had the anniversary of EO 9066) the US is built on genocide and white supremacy. It's not so much an obsession as a foundational/organizing principle. Connecting it to the previous points on tensions between different racial groupings in the US, we've long known that embracing aspects of said white supremacist ideologies can confer material benefits in our society. I disagree. From an outsider, it seems like race is brought up far more than it strictly needs to, and I believe it causes more racism. Is is really necessary to point out ethnicicity every time a poll or election result comes up? Wouldn't just income, education, gender and age be enough? Was it really necessary to bring race into the police violence protests? Sure, blacks might be discriminated, but police violence is a much more general problem that can effect everyone. I believe playing the race card fired up the other side and made real progress more difficult. Is painting a picture where whites are defacto surpressors and blacks de facto victims a sensible way forward? I think the south park episode from the 90s summed my points of view perfectly. The kids were so unracist they saw a logo about execution, not 4 whites lynching a black guy. | ||
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Neneu
Norway492 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18008 Posts
On February 26 2021 03:27 Doublemint wrote: context matters indeed. I feel like there should be an informal rule of bitchslapping applied in case a white person gets somehow more offended than the purportedly aggrieved black/asian/handicapped/gay/whatever person // also I did not come across it the last couple of pages but as it is quite news. Trump's Tax returns are in the hands of the NY DA via CNN Yes and no. I mean, white people getting more offended is obviously retarded. But that doesn't mean that just because the person who got offended is of the right ethnicity/gender/whatever, the offense is worth dealing with. In the case of the Netherlands, there's a bunch of perpetually outraged people led by drama queen Sylvana Simons. She has no popular support (she tried to run for parliament and got like 0% of the vote, even of those she was claiming to represent), but she keeps being given screentime by "news" outlets because the outrage machine needs outrage to keep numbers up. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25485 Posts
On February 26 2021 17:35 Slydie wrote: I disagree. From an outsider, it seems like race is brought up far more than it strictly needs to, and I believe it causes more racism. Is is really necessary to point out ethnicicity every time a poll or election result comes up? Wouldn't just income, education, gender and age be enough? Was it really necessary to bring race into the police violence protests? Sure, blacks might be discriminated, but police violence is a much more general problem that can effect everyone. I believe playing the race card fired up the other side and made real progress more difficult. Is painting a picture where whites are defacto surpressors and blacks de facto victims a sensible way forward? I think the south park episode from the 90s summed my points of view perfectly. The kids were so unracist they saw a logo about execution, not 4 whites lynching a black guy. The other side get fired up at anything that causes them to look at the reality of things, or indeed look in the mirror. You see this phenomenon on a smaller level in all sorts of places, down to women wanting to participate in more traditionally male-dominated spaces like gaming without being harassed and pestered. Considering the pushback to the BLM movement hasn’t been generally ‘it’s a universal problem let’s rally universally’ but variants of ‘cops are good there’s no problem here’ I don’t see how changing the messaging would be of particular benefit, although personally I would see it as more a universal problem that affects the black community worse than as a problem exclusive to them. South Park have it half right, kids aren’t particularly racist they’re rather blank states, but society pushes it on them quite young, even at a low level. I don’t think being made aware of societal problems and being taught to be able to navigate and understand them is going to bring worse results than being taught the world is colourblind, we’re not quite there yet. I do somewhat disagree with the exporting of America-specific racial issues to the rest of the world mind, because there are different complexities and history in all sorts of countries. I’m unsure why white folks have such an issue with the concept of privilege existing, it doesn’t confer individual responsibility upon them, certainly it doesn’t define you as an individual as an oppressor depending on how you behave. There seems a widespread misunderstanding on this, be it wilful ignorance or general ignorance. If you’re asking people if it’s advantageous to grow up wealthy, the vast majority of people will say it is without batting an eyelid. If you ask do you think you’d have accomplished what you have if you grew up black, a lot of people will say yes, despite a rather bleak amount of statistics and figures that show on average you would not. This doesn’t mean I think every mention of race is helpful in remedying issues, it can feature far too much in commentary especially over in the US. | ||
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MWY
Germany284 Posts
On February 26 2021 22:34 WombaT wrote: I don’t think being made aware of societal problems and being taught to be able to navigate and understand them is going to bring worse results than being taught the world is colourblind, we’re not quite there yet. So do we get there by hypersensitizing our kids on every single superficial aspect of other human beings (like race, gender, etc.) and drill them to treat every person differently based on them? Is that how we get to a general understanding that all people should be or at least should be treated equally? | ||
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farvacola
United States18828 Posts
On February 27 2021 01:22 MWY wrote: So do we get there by hypersensitizing our kids on every single superficial aspect of other human beings (like race, gender, etc.) and drill them to treat every person differently based on them? Is that how we get to a general understanding that all people should be or at least should be treated equally? Nice job transparently exaggerating his point for effect. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25485 Posts
On February 27 2021 01:22 MWY wrote: So do we get there by hypersensitizing our kids on every single superficial aspect of other human beings (like race, gender, etc.) and drill them to treat every person differently based on them? Is that how we get to a general understanding that all people should be or at least should be treated equally? Being aware that society absolutely is inequal in how people are treated along some of those identity signifiers doesn't mean you have to then treat people any differently yourself. Just being aware of that and doing your best to mitigate that if you can at all. Having done SC LANs for a decade in mostly a casting/organising capacity I would absolutely love to be able to say women entering that space, especially good looking ones are treated equally and are treated like all the dudes who happen to share a hobby. Alas that absolutely is not the case, but I don't particularly change my own behaviours in that scenario. Do our best to not leave them to the mercies of the thirstiest weirdest dudes at the convention so that they can enjoy some Starcraft and things in that vein. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On February 26 2021 15:15 Zambrah wrote: Why not do that then? Scrapping the whole thing is throwing away a big flashing "We Are Trying To Help You" sign that could save or expand their congressional margins. People probably wouldn't care about any of the adjustments you mentioned, it'd still amount to "15 dollar minimum wage achieved!" that they could campaign on. I can't imagine that two years of Democrats doing what they always do is going to help their election chances in 2022, Democrats lost house seats, and so very barely scraped out a tied Senate against Donald Trump, their "BUT TRUMP" cover is gone (at least til he wins the next nomination...) and I have a hard time imagining that milquetoast Democrats are going to be any sort of surefire win against whatever vaguely palatable Republican (again, presuming Trump doesnt win the next nomination...) becomes the nominee. Even if they make the 15 dollar minimum wage process crappier and worse at least its something they can point to and say that they did. If they're having this much trouble with something thats generally pretty popular are they even going to be able to do anything meaningful at all? My guess is that they are going to try again with one of the later reconciliations, as it's a lot more complicated of an issue than anything being addressed in this bill (ie it takes months of wheeling and dealing to get passed rather than a couple weeks), I do think it's a miscalculation though : all congresses spend most of their political capitol on the first major legislation they pass. For what it's worth, we're in a less charted political era now. A lot of our political "rules" are just things from the past 40-50 years where we've had things like polls and TV. I think our environment has changed a lot more than pundits and analysts realize, and our best comparisons would be the 1880s or 1900s where partisanship was similar to today. To get an idea of how ridiculous some of our preconceived notions about things like the incumbents always losing the house, democrats controlled both houses of congress for literally 40 years, from 1954 to 1994 (and if we go back to 1932, only 4 years in that 60 year period were not under democratic control). | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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