EPTBut that's beside the point. There is no two types of insulation. There is no such thing as buildings insulated to keep heat out. They would simply lack insulation. And in reality you would just open a window in an insulated house. Look, I am just going to leave you to it. Whether or not there is an externally mounted evaporative cooler or not. It's ludicrous. You are thinking that an insulated house cannot be cooled because apparently people don't open windows when it is hot. You are thinking that an insulated house can be colder in winter because reasons. I'm not going to argue with someone who uses mod status to write people are making idiots of themselves and refutes basic thermodynamics.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3087
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
But that's beside the point. There is no two types of insulation. There is no such thing as buildings insulated to keep heat out. They would simply lack insulation. And in reality you would just open a window in an insulated house. Look, I am just going to leave you to it. Whether or not there is an externally mounted evaporative cooler or not. It's ludicrous. You are thinking that an insulated house cannot be cooled because apparently people don't open windows when it is hot. You are thinking that an insulated house can be colder in winter because reasons. I'm not going to argue with someone who uses mod status to write people are making idiots of themselves and refutes basic thermodynamics. | ||
KwarK
United States43968 Posts
On February 18 2021 07:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote: That's even worse then, since the water, which is taking heat energy away from the air should be taken away from the house then. When heat energy is taken away from a source, the house will surely cool down. But that's beside the point. There is no two types of insulation. Buildings are insulated to keep heat out will keep heat in. And in reality you would just open a window in an insulated house. Can you just admit you were wrong and learn why you shouldn’t have started an argument about the physical impossibility of swamp coolers without knowing what a swamp cooler is? It’s the most common form of household cooling in the American southwest because of the energy efficiency when compared to compression coolers and the low cost. If you lived here you’d have known they’re on roofs and push outside air into the house because everyone knows that, they’re visible on every house. You don’t know that because you don’t know what they are which is why you’re coming in with the assumption of a closed system. Not knowing what they are or how they work is fine but arguing about it despite that ignorance is not. The houses are built with an assumption of airflow between the inside and outside. That’s good when you’re trying to cool them in the summer and bad when you’re trying to keep them warm in the winter. Buildings that are built to let hot air out during the summer will let hot air out during the winter. I literally live in the area currently under this snow storm and my house leaks air like a sieve. I have provided you the information, you can either accept it or not but it’s not going to change. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On February 18 2021 07:29 KwarK wrote: They’re more commonly called evaporative coolers. They’re the most common kind due to cost and simplicity. It’s just a fan sucking air through a waterlogged mesh. Airflow + water + surface area = cold. The design is unchanged in seventy years or so, a motor, a hose pipe, and a pump. Ya I hear you. Its a great design that makes sense in hot dry climates. Cant believe theres actually an argument about it defying physics. It takes advantage of the properties of evaporation. Evaporation is why we have the whole "dry heat" . a Dry heat doesnt feel as hot because your bodies sweat is able to evaporate and cool you down. Consequently, a humid heat sucks ass because you just sit in your sweat and it doesnt evaporate efficiently. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11563 Posts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On February 18 2021 08:35 FragKrag wrote: I believe a similar mechanism to the swamp cooler that has been in use for centuries are windcatchers. They tend to rely on some form of evaporative cooling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher I love that this turned into a heat transfer thread. I was aware of heat pumps (again not as common in the midwest) but the swap cooler and now this passive cooling system is awesome. Definite rabbit hole material. | ||
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FragKrag
United States11563 Posts
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
DMCD: hot air -> water [air gets colder due to evaporation] -> house -> outside. Cooling the walls is not very efficient, it's a lot of mass and thus needs a lot of water to evaporate. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
This is probably the oldest concept of "cooling" for mankind. Swamp coolers, while i didn't know what they were (well turns out i did, just didn't know the term), turn out to be simple evaporative coolers. Which are entirely worthless as an "aircon device" in a closed room, it won't make a difference. This isn't rocket science, and is actually something used in many applications. The concept is thousands of years old, was even used as a kinda shitty version (really, the predecessor) of a car-aircon. I honestly am not sure where the argument comes from that this would break the laws of thermodynamics, other than maybe for some reason thinking that the cooling effect comes from exchanging heat with the water, which is not what an evaporative cooler does. It evaporates water. Which requires fresh dry air, because in a closed room eventually the air won't have the capacity to take more water vapour, passing through the cooler doing nothing. Though: The houses are built with an assumption of airflow between the inside and outside. That’s good when you’re trying to cool them in the summer and bad when you’re trying to keep them warm in the winter. Buildings that are built to let hot air out during the summer will let hot air out during the winter. I literally live in the area currently under this snow storm and my house leaks air like a sieve. I have provided you the information, you can either accept it or not but it’s not going to change. I mean.. You could open a window in a well insulated house. I know that sounds far fetched, but opening a few big holes in your house does increase airflow quite substantially. The houses are built under the assumption that it's gotta be cheap. A well insulated house doesn't heat up as much in the first place, and if the insulation gets overwhelmed, you open windows. There's literally no reason other than being cheap to build a house that "intentionally isn't well insulated". As much as the other guy doesn't grasp evaporative cooling, you don't seem to understand insulation. Few pointers: a well insulated house doesn't heat up as much in summer, doesn't cool out as much in winter. By default. If in summer you do overwhelm the insulation, you can open windows to increase airflow and STILL have good insulation. And then, as if that wasn't enough, in winter - believe it or not - you can close those windows, keeping warm air in. It's of course also much more energy efficient, which probably would help in a state that has rolling blackouts because people have to blast electric furnaces in their Arguing against proper good insulation because "it makes the air not go through the house, so my swamp cooler don't work" is the same level of as the "swamp coolers break the laws of physics". | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2877 Posts
So, if you're expecting to spend most of the time at blistering hot temperatures and winters for the most part don't get very cold, it makes sense to build houses with poor insulation. Cooling down a well-insulated house at 100+F is orders of magnitude more expensive. 'Opening a window' doesn't really do the job -- take this from someone who lived in Munich, the 4-5 days a year that hit those temperatures are miserable because most places don't even have AC, but it's ok because it's only for like a week. Expecting Texans to build well-insulated houses to prepare for what used to be 'once in a Lifetime' events is unreasonable. Of course, things are changing now and once in a lifetime events happen every few years, but people don't change that quickly. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4751 Posts
On February 18 2021 13:19 m4ini wrote: How someone could argue that evaporative cooling breaks the laws of thermodynamics is kinda beyond me. Many people dont know that during every phase transition (and evaporation is just one example of phase tranasition) energy is used/produced for transition process itself and while energy in system remains the same the temparature may change. If You dont know that You can easily make mistake. BTW: I live on the fourth floor in four storey building, this flat is extremely hot (and well lit by sun). Its super good in winter as i do not need to heat much even during -20 Celsius nights. But is super annoying in summer as it heats up from the roof and there isnt much i can do to cool it down. You know if there is 28 Celsius inside flat and 33 Celsius outside the only thing You do when You open windows is let hot air in. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On February 18 2021 18:52 EnDeR_ wrote: I don't think it's a stretch to say that houses are generally built around some optimal insulation/cost number. So, if you're expecting to spend most of the time at blistering hot temperatures and winters for the most part don't get very cold, it makes sense to build houses with poor insulation. Cooling down a well-insulated house at 100+F is orders of magnitude more expensive. 'Opening a window' doesn't really do the job -- take this from someone who lived in Munich, the 4-5 days a year that hit those temperatures are miserable because most places don't even have AC, but it's ok because it's only for like a week. Expecting Texans to build well-insulated houses to prepare for what used to be 'once in a Lifetime' events is unreasonable. Of course, things are changing now and once in a lifetime events happen every few years, but people don't change that quickly. Once in a lifetime event that already happened in 2011. I don't expect anything to change in texas until they get it every year. | ||
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
On February 18 2021 08:04 KwarK wrote: Can you just admit you were wrong and learn why you shouldn’t have started an argument about the physical impossibility of swamp coolers without knowing what a swamp cooler is? ... His argument is not about the "physical impossibility of swamp coolers" but about the physical impossibility of an insulation that keeps the heat out, not in. This should be clear if you actually read all of his responses especially if one keeps in mind what the initial post on the topic was: On February 18 2021 04:29 NewSunshine wrote: I saw the theory floated by a rando that Texas is only getting hit this bad by the cold because their buildings are insulated to keep heat out, not in, which was definitely an interesting theory on how heat works. It was wrong, but interesting. Kind of shocking in general that large swathes of homes were built without basic insulation, but then again it took insane amounts of destruction before Florida incorporated storm readiness into their building codes. Also Texas putting the "free" in freeze is pretty good, though I'm having a hard time with humor knowing how fucking shitty it is there right now. This needs to be a wake-up call to enact change for the better. And it should be obvious that this was his argument all along no later than his post you quoted: On February 18 2021 07:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote: That's even worse then, since the water, which is taking heat energy away from the air should be taken away from the house then. When heat energy is taken away from a source, the house will surely cool down. But that's beside the point. There is no two types of insulation. Buildings are insulated to keep heat out will keep heat in. And in reality you would just open a window in an insulated house. Considering the definition of thermal insulation, his statement is absolutely correct. If anything, the question is why you would bring up swamp coolers (a mechanism for heat transfer) as a response to a post that ridicules the idea of insulation that keeps heat out but not in. On February 18 2021 04:37 KwarK wrote: Consider the humble swamp cooler. It takes outside air, cools it, and pushes it into the house. A house with excellent insulation cannot be cooled this way, the pressure inside the house will build up until cold air cannot be pushed in. A house that leaks inside air can. Inside air getting out is a key part of cooling but not great for staying warm in the winter. I am quite certain that his initial statement that what you wrote "makes no sense at all" refers to your explanation of how a swamp cooler works and not the inexistence of a swamp cooler. + Show Spoiler + Apparent from this post: On February 18 2021 07:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote: 1) What has that got to do with a house with excellent insulation? 2) It doesn't neccessarily have to take in outside air. A closed system can have internally different temperature gradients. 3) No house no matter how well insulated is a closed system. Otherwise people will die of oxygen deprivation. 4) The idea that "pressure inside the house will build up until cold air cannot be pushed in", is contrary to the idea that "It takes outside air, cools it, and pushes it into the house" and "you can’t push cold air into an airtight box". it can only be one or the other, you are making arguments to fit. You appear to have thought that the idea that there can be two different types of insulation, one to keep heat in and one to keep heat out, and then made up reasons to go with with it. Lets say I am in a house, with all windows closed and with excellent insulation. I turn on an evapourative cooler. It transfers heat from the air to water. The water takes in heat energy as the air loses heat energy. It does not require an external source of air. The net heat energy in the house remains equal. And of course what people do in well insulated homes when it gets hot is to open a window. That doesn't change that there is no different types of insulation. I guess, the merits of accurately describing the physical process behind swamp coolers are questionable as long as the concept of leaking air is provided. But then again, as already mentioned, it is also questionable why one would talk about swamp coolers as a response to insulation that keeps heat out but not in... | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2877 Posts
On February 18 2021 20:23 Erasme wrote: Once in a lifetime event that already happened in 2011. I don't expect anything to change in texas until they get it every year. Absolutely, but that's not only related to Texans. We don't really change our habits unless there's a really strong financial incentive to do so. | ||
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Taelshin
Canada420 Posts
/s People get hurt with extreme shifts in weather, its a thing, Cali is not Texas, Texas is not Cali, They have different issues and for different reasons. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22308 Posts
On February 18 2021 22:18 Taelshin wrote: If you were hit by an earthquake that is supposed to not even be a once in a lifetime event twice in a decade, maybe its worth paying some attention to it.My house is not prepared for an earthquake. We Haven't had a serious one in 200 years. what should I do? I've looked at earthquake insurance but its extremely expensive. Also I'm concerned that the hill I live on could be a volcano, do you guy's have any suggestions? /s People get hurt with extreme shifts in weather, its a thing, Cali is not Texas, Texas is not Cali, They have different issues and for different reasons. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26762 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On February 18 2021 22:18 Taelshin wrote: My house is not prepared for an earthquake. We Haven't had a serious one in 200 years. what should I do? I've looked at earthquake insurance but its extremely expensive. Also I'm concerned that the hill I live on could be a volcano, do you guy's have any suggestions? /s People get hurt with extreme shifts in weather, its a thing, Cali is not Texas, Texas is not Cali, They have different issues and for different reasons. So obviously Ted Cruz is justified flying out to Cancun. What can you do? Shrug | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8744 Posts
On February 19 2021 00:25 NewSunshine wrote: So obviously Ted Cruz is justified flying out to Cancun. What can you do? Shrug Cruz fleeing is the cherry on top. and the governor making up shit about an imaginary green new deal being to blame for the outages. in texas. even the lies gotta be bigger there apparently. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On February 19 2021 00:43 Doublemint wrote: Cruz fleeing is the cherry on top. and the governor making up shit about an imaginary green new deal being to blame for the outages. in texas. even the lies gotta be bigger there apparently. I'm sure it's very comforting to all the folks trying not to freeze to death that their Republican leadership had managed to assuage their bruised egos by peacing the fuck out of any and all responsibility for helping the people of Texas. /s | ||
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