EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2889
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On December 13 2020 09:52 Stratos_speAr wrote: Your definition of "poor" is very limited, since the average is skewed by the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few in this country. I also said "the majority" concerning states, so your second paragraph is moot. D.C. isn't a state, by the way. Concerning the role that history plays in black people's current situation and the economy, i literally never said any of that. In fact, I 100% agree that the Southern economy developed out of complex historical factors that still influence it today. The problem here is that you tried to attribute an argument to me that was not only false, but literally completely out of nowhere. You should probably check yourself on that. As mentioned above, life in poor U.S. states is absolutely worse than many, many other first world countries, and this is supported by a wealth of objective metrics. I could list 15 countries I would choose to live in before Mississippi purely based on quality of life. Also, legality matters in terms of how easy it was for Trump to be elected vs. How likely it is for secession is to happen. You would need widespread support for committing treason and embarking on a violent overthrow of the federal government compared to just voting for a terrible person in a legally organized election. You said they were poor. We're talking about their economic well-being. Why are we bringing up other stuff? Factually and comparatively Republican secession states are not poor. You wouldn't call France a poor nation. Why call Mississippi one then (I used MS to use the worst state, but most Republican states are far better off economically than France)? Its a dumb stereotype of the hillbilly living in a shack and marrying their second cousin in the swamp. Thats not Mississippi in the 21st Century (Ive been there many times, what about you?). It's also odd that you believe secession is about overthrowing the Feds when its the complete opposite. Did India want to overthrow England and displace the crown in Wales? No. Secession = Independence, no more, no less. (Its even more odd you view it as violent and not the other way around. The Feds would be the violent ones not the legislatures saying I don't want any part of the Union anymore - goodbye. Leaving = violent but using the military to forcefully maintain a polity of people that want no association = not violent....OK then) Of course I don't think secession is likely (unfortunately, regardless of motive) because Americans by and large have been brainwashed into very Nationalistic folks. Used to be people viewed their state as their country first then DC second. Thats much much less so nowadays especially with the rates of migration. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 13 2020 11:25 Wegandi wrote: You said they were poor. We're talking about their economic well-being. Why are we bringing up other stuff? Factually and comparatively Republican secession states are not poor. You wouldn't call France a poor nation. Why call Mississippi one then (I used MS to use the worst state, but most Republican states are far better off economically than France)? Its a dumb stereotype of the hillbilly living in a shack and marrying their second cousin in the swamp. Thats not Mississippi in the 21st Century (Ive been there many times, what about you?). It's also odd that you believe secession is about overthrowing the Feds when its the complete opposite. Did India want to overthrow England and displace the crown in Wales? No. Secession = Independence, no more, no less. (Its even more odd you view it as violent and not the other way around. The Feds would be the violent ones not the legislatures saying I don't want any part of the Union anymore - goodbye. Leaving = violent but using the military to forcefully maintain a polity of people that want no association = not violent....OK then) Of course I don't think secession is likely (unfortunately, regardless of motive) because Americans by and large have been brainwashed into very Nationalistic folks. Used to be people viewed their state as their country first then DC second. Thats much much less so nowadays especially with the rates of migration. I just explicitly mentioned that your concept of "poor" is a terribly defined one. You are defining Mississippi's wealth as an aggregate, whereas everyone around you is obviously talking about the actual people that live there. Mississippi has an incredibly high level of poverty which is the highest in the nation and higher than most peer countries. This shows us that your statistics about wealth are heavily skewed by the rich holding the vast majority of wealth in the state. Other metrics were used to better demonstrate the actual living conditions, quality of life, and overall wealth of the people in Mississippi; every single metric shows that they have a horrible quality of life when compared to those in other countries (and other American states). Your point about Mississippi being supposedly wealthy is 1) wrong, as has been shown by other posters, and 2) useless, as it has no relevance to the normal people that live in Mississippi. Those people live significantly poorer, less privileged lives than the normal people in comparable countries. Also the historical ignorance in the second part of your post is astounding. This happened already. It literally happened, step-by-step, and it cause The Civil War. Secession is not permitted in our system, therefore the federal government won't just allow it, which necessitates violent force being used by both sides (remember that the Confederates wanted to "just be left alone" and yet actually started the war). There is pretty much no scenario where a theoretical GOP nation secedes without violence. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26534 Posts
On December 13 2020 11:25 Wegandi wrote: You said they were poor. We're talking about their economic well-being. Why are we bringing up other stuff? Factually and comparatively Republican secession states are not poor. You wouldn't call France a poor nation. Why call Mississippi one then (I used MS to use the worst state, but most Republican states are far better off economically than France)? Its a dumb stereotype of the hillbilly living in a shack and marrying their second cousin in the swamp. Thats not Mississippi in the 21st Century (Ive been there many times, what about you?). It's also odd that you believe secession is about overthrowing the Feds when its the complete opposite. Did India want to overthrow England and displace the crown in Wales? No. Secession = Independence, no more, no less. (Its even more odd you view it as violent and not the other way around. The Feds would be the violent ones not the legislatures saying I don't want any part of the Union anymore - goodbye. Leaving = violent but using the military to forcefully maintain a polity of people that want no association = not violent....OK then) Of course I don't think secession is likely (unfortunately, regardless of motive) because Americans by and large have been brainwashed into very Nationalistic folks. Used to be people viewed their state as their country first then DC second. Thats much much less so nowadays especially with the rates of migration. What’s the difference? A state like California or Texas is bigger both in populace and territory than my own country (including the Republic of Ireland) and many other European countries What differentiates American nationalism (bad) and state nationalism (good?) here exactly? | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On December 13 2020 10:39 Sent. wrote: I wasn't comparing California and Mississippi. I brought up California because its score makes it obvious the source isn't providing general literacy rates. Some Europeans here might believe 16% of Mississippi's population is illiterate, but no one would believe almost every fourth person in California can't read and write. I lived in Cali for 6 years, and while those numbers are surprising to me, they are not shocking. Cali as both high levels of immigration from non english-speaking countries, and a fair amount of people living in crushing poverty. (Bay area income inequality is honestly hard to explain to someone who hasn't seen it) Here is a different source https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2009/01/11/more-east-bay-residents-struggling-with-literacy/ It's 11 years old - but the numbers are consistent with what i posted from worldpopulationreview. That said - it's entirely possible the survey methodologies or definitions are different. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4408 Posts
On December 13 2020 10:39 Sent. wrote: I wasn't comparing California and Mississippi. I brought up California because its score makes it obvious the source isn't providing general literacy rates. Some Europeans here might believe 16% of Mississippi's population is illiterate, but no one would believe almost every fourth person in California can't read and write. Sure they would, if they would have looked at a basic map of the IQ per state and see that California has the 3rd lowest average IQ after Mississippi and Louisiana. ![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sHEawhiwhsI/maxresdefault.jpg) Tesla, HP and Oracle have all moved their headquarters from California to Texas this year. More to come? https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/12/11/oracle-joins-hp-and-elon-musk-in-california-to-texas-move-9424903 | ||
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Howie_Dewitt
United States1416 Posts
On December 13 2020 20:43 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Sure they would, if they would have looked at a basic map of the IQ per state and see that California has the 3rd lowest average IQ after Mississippi and Louisiana. Tesla, HP and Oracle have all moved their headquarters from California to Texas this year. More to come? https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/12/11/oracle-joins-hp-and-elon-musk-in-california-to-texas-move-9424903 Even disregarding the fact that many people in California probably know a different language if they can't from another country, why bring up state IQ average of all things? And even then the number for California English illiteracy (was said to be near 24%) is roughly 1.5x Mississippi (16%)... And are you implying that IQ has to do with those companies' decisions to move? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please state it in your own words. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4408 Posts
On December 13 2020 21:32 Howie_Dewitt wrote: Even disregarding the fact that many people in California probably know a different language if they can't from another country, why bring up state IQ average of all things? And even then the number for California English illiteracy (was said to be near 24%) is roughly 1.5x Mississippi (16%)... And are you implying that IQ has to do with those companies' decisions to move? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please state it in your own words. We're denying that IQ and literacy rates don't go hand in hand now? Companies moving from CA to Texas more likely due to CA tax laws and oppressive cost of housing in CA (Also the reason for sky high homelessness there).Is anybody really suggesting that California is still great? I merely point out that Republican states like Texas are benefitting from it's decline. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8056 Posts
Meh. Not a very good comparison. A secession in the US anytime soon is alternate history / GH marxist-leninist-non-violent-revolution level of unlikely. Yes Trump was a huge surprise, but that's pure fantasy. I mean it's fine to discuss those things as long as we acknowledge them for what they are. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
It also has nothing to do with English literacy rates. Many European countries have less than 60% English literacy rates because English is not their mother tongue. But their IQ as can be expected would be averaged to 100 because that's how IQ works. Also unsourced picture, but whatever. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On December 13 2020 21:54 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: We're denying that IQ and literacy rates don't go hand in hand now? Companies moving from CA to Texas more likely due to CA tax laws and oppressive cost of housing in CA (Also the reason for sky high homelessness there).Is anybody really suggesting that California is still great? I merely point out that Republican states like Texas are benefitting from it's decline. I would rather call it being the victim of its own success. Californians moving to Arizona and Nevada had a major impact on this election, it was maybe even decisive. If the trend moves in a more tech-heavy with even more empazis on the cities, it should flip to D down the road. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4408 Posts
On December 13 2020 23:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Bears repeating every time IQ tests gets brought up buy iplaynettles, who is obsessed with IQ tests for whatever reason, that IQ tests are only good at measuring IQ, which in itself an artificial cultural test. The average IQ 20 years ago would be 90 today, but obviously the people of the past are just as mentally capable today. They're getting dumber in developed countries generally. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576 One potential explanation was quasi-eugenic. As in the movie “Idiocracy,” it was suggested that average intelligence is being pulled down because lower-IQ families are having more children ("dysgenic fertility" is the technical term). Alternatively, widening immigration might be bringing less-intelligent newcomers to societies with otherwise higher IQs. However, a 2018 study of Norway has punctured these theories by showing that IQs are dropping not just across societies but within families. In other words, the issue is not that educated Norwegians are increasingly outnumbered by lower-IQ immigrants or the children of less-educated citizens. Even children born to high-IQ parents are slipping down the IQ ladder. And if you're not satisfied with IQ as measure for intelligence what do you use? Percent with high school graduation or higher? California is bottom of that list 50/50.82.5% with at least high school around 5% lower than US average. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_educational_attainment Point is, bit rich calling states like Mississippi shitholes when places like California are rapidly going same way.In many cases, worse. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/18/san-francisco-poop-problem-inequality-homelessness It’s an empirical fact: San Francisco is a crappier place to live these days. Sightings of human feces on the sidewalks are now a regular occurrence; over the past 10 years, complaints about human waste have increased 400%. People now call the city 65 times a day to report poop, and there have been 14,597 calls in 2018 alone. Last year, software engineer Jenn Wong even created a poop map of San Francisco, showing the concentration of incidents across the city. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Dan HH
Romania9192 Posts
On December 14 2020 02:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: They're getting dumber in developed countries generally. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576 Ironic that an op-ed about a test measuring our ability to observe patterns and process information fails to do just that. The first sentence says "People are getting dumber. That's not a judgment; it's a global fact." yet it cites a Sciencealert piece that says something completely different, that the Flynn effect is declining. Due to the way tests are recalibrated every few years, average scores being lower means failing to grow at the same rate as in the previous timeframe. It doesn't even mean no growth, let alone "getting dumber". It makes perfect sense that this would happen in developed countries. Scince the number one factor far and away for countries' IQ test results has always been access to education, of course a country like Norway is gonna see less improvement there in the 21st century than a country like India where there's so much more room for it. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On December 13 2020 23:21 JimmiC wrote: How do they calculate IQ per state? Something with with SATs? It seems really unlikely that this this is accurate or you can dra wany conclusions from it. No you can't. IQ is an arbitrary metric at best because it tries to measure in simple terms something that's difficult to even define in the first place. Also most people don't even bother taking them because they know IQ score doesn't mean anything, so good luck getting any kind of decent sample size on your arbitrary measure of an amorphous human quality. Nettles's argument is on the level of a half-baked and badly researched high school paper. It's a joke. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11798 Posts
On December 14 2020 03:05 NewSunshine wrote: No you can't. IQ is an arbitrary metric at best because it tries to measure in simple terms something that's difficult to even define in the first place. Also most people don't even bother taking them because they know IQ score doesn't mean anything, so good luck getting any kind of decent sample size on your arbitrary measure of an amorphous human quality. Nettles's argument is on the level of a half-baked and badly researched high school paper. It's a joke. Yeah. Be very careful with IQ arguments in general. Almost always, they only show that the person making them has no clue about IQ. A few important things to remember: IQ tests measure the ability to complete IQ tests. They try to measure some vaguely defined quality called intelligence, but a lot of other stuff also goes into the results. And even more important, IQ tests are mostly useful for comparing individuals in the same population. Different language IQ tests are scaled differently, and a lot of the other factors influencing the results of IQ tests can differ between populations. Using IQ tests to compare different populations (either in different places or in different times) is almost certainly not valid. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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KwarK
United States43866 Posts
On December 14 2020 03:40 Mohdoo wrote: Remember when Nettles talked about pizzagate being real? Uranium one? Why in the world do you guys even respond to him Bait always appears more tempting than the real thing. That’s why it’s bait. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On December 14 2020 03:54 KwarK wrote: Bait always appears more tempting than the real thing. That’s why it’s bait. The attempt to leap from shitty premise to faulty inference to absolutely backwards conclusion was a bold one. He gets that much. Also a lol. | ||
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