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On December 13 2020 02:21 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 02:02 Sermokala wrote:
Wanting to cleanse the nation of the wrong thinkers is never going to win you the points you think they will. On top of that its fucking stupid. When the wrong thinks economy explodes (alongside yours as the economies are interdependent) it'll just lead to a giant war that would end up with tens of millions of dead in the best of cases.
You're literaly no better then GH's "gee the revolution won't be violent but violence is to be expected so it will be violent" If you civil war instead, you get that war immediately. I was just saying that if the republican states want to secede, let them. No reason to fight a war to force them to stay in a position where they can ruin your politics. That is not "cleansing of the wrong thinkers", it is letting them make their own decisions. At some point if someone constantly fights you because they want to touch the hot stove, maybe you just need to let them touch it while keeping them from also grabbing your hand and forcing it onto the hot stove, too. And if that person then tell you they want to leave to get their own place with their own stove so they can touch it without your interference, maybe you don't fight them over it anymore. No reason to keep getting punched in the face by them because you try to save them from their own stupidity.
You're saying it's better to just accept that tens of millions of more people need to die beacuse nothing better can happen. You do realize that there are wrong thinkers in dem states as well as right thinkers in rep states right? It's not a regional divide you can have a nice little civil war to not solve your problems it's a collection of blue enclaves surrounded by seas of red. No one is dumb enough to seriously think that the free cities of left America can survive alone with a poor pissed off nation that sits on their supply chains. The only step to make your new nation work is carve out paths between the cities and depopulate them of wrong thinkers. Then you need food and oil so you carve out those regions and depopulate them of wrong thinkers so they stay happy in their worthless land with no money jobs welfare or prospects that they totally wont just go to war to take everything they can get.
You are worse then the trump fanatics beacuse at least they can blame the paste they eat.
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On December 13 2020 04:28 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 02:21 Simberto wrote:On December 13 2020 02:02 Sermokala wrote:
Wanting to cleanse the nation of the wrong thinkers is never going to win you the points you think they will. On top of that its fucking stupid. When the wrong thinks economy explodes (alongside yours as the economies are interdependent) it'll just lead to a giant war that would end up with tens of millions of dead in the best of cases.
You're literaly no better then GH's "gee the revolution won't be violent but violence is to be expected so it will be violent" If you civil war instead, you get that war immediately. I was just saying that if the republican states want to secede, let them. No reason to fight a war to force them to stay in a position where they can ruin your politics. That is not "cleansing of the wrong thinkers", it is letting them make their own decisions. At some point if someone constantly fights you because they want to touch the hot stove, maybe you just need to let them touch it while keeping them from also grabbing your hand and forcing it onto the hot stove, too. And if that person then tell you they want to leave to get their own place with their own stove so they can touch it without your interference, maybe you don't fight them over it anymore. No reason to keep getting punched in the face by them because you try to save them from their own stupidity. You're saying it's better to just accept that tens of millions of more people need to die beacuse nothing better can happen.
I am not saying anything of the sort. Stop putting words i haven't said in my mouth.
I am saying that if republican states want to secede, it is best not to have a civil war about that. Somehow you constructed that to mean that i say that we need an even bigger war instead. But that is something you have said. Not something i have said.
Regarding the rest of the states, yes, that is true. Which is why i said that you should offer unlimited asylum to people fleeing the republican states of america.
Also, i find it pretty annoying that you constantly put words like "wrong thinkers" into my mouth. Once again, those are your words, not mine. Stop trying to paint me as some sort of fascist who wants to oppress you poor republicans. You managed to somehow turning me saying that if republican states want to secede, the rest should not war them over that into me oppressing republicans. How can you not notice the weird mental contortions you need to do to reach this conclusion?
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On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans
Not just that, I would expect that the will to secede in cities, which make up a huge percentage of that GDP, is very low.
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I think we can all agree a secession is supremely unlikely in our lifetime though.
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On December 13 2020 05:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think we can all agree a secession is supremely unlikely in our lifetime though.
trump was unlikely too. Here we are.
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On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans
The GDP per capita of Mississippi is higher than Spain, South Korea, Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, and is only ~13.5% behind France, UK, Japan, Israel and New Zealand. By the way I use MS because they have the lowest GDP per capita in the US. Florida (52k) for instance is higher than all those countries (which tops out at 42k). What is so "lol"?
Sometimes I think you guys live in a VR world with your "facts" and "lols".
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On December 13 2020 06:34 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans The GDP per capita of Mississippi is higher than Spain, South Korea, Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, and is only ~13.5% behind France, UK, Japan, Israel and New Zealand. By the way I use MS because they have the lowest GDP per capita in the US. Florida (52k) for instance is higher than all those countries (which tops out at 42k). What is so "lol"? Sometimes I think you guys live in a VR world with your "facts" and "lols".
Mississippi also has the highest poverty rate in the country (almost all the worst states are heavily Republican) as well as some of the worst healthcare, education, and infrastructure (also traits shared by deep red states). These traits also don't compare well to any peer country.
Most of the states that are net drains on federal money are also red states.
If Republican states seceded, they would be an incredibly poor, poorly educated, and unhealthy country with almost no worker protections and an incredibly exploitative economy.
trump was unlikely too. Here we are
The difference is that there is no legal path to secession whereas there was for Trump to be elected.
We literally fought a war that settled the legality of secession.
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On December 13 2020 06:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 06:34 Wegandi wrote:On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans The GDP per capita of Mississippi is higher than Spain, South Korea, Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, and is only ~13.5% behind France, UK, Japan, Israel and New Zealand. By the way I use MS because they have the lowest GDP per capita in the US. Florida (52k) for instance is higher than all those countries (which tops out at 42k). What is so "lol"? Sometimes I think you guys live in a VR world with your "facts" and "lols". Mississippi also has the highest poverty rate in the country (almost all the worst states are heavily Republican) as well as some of the worst healthcare, education, and infrastructure (also traits shared by deep red states). These traits also don't compare well to any peer country. Most of the states that are net drains on federal money are also red states. If Republican states seceded, they would be an incredibly poor, poorly educated, and unhealthy country with almost no worker protections and an incredibly exploitative economy. The difference is that there is no legal path to secession whereas there was for Trump to be elected. We literally fought a war that settled the legality of secession.
If Republican states (add NH here too which is around 75k ppp) left they would not be poor, unless you think France, UK, Japan, Israel, South Korea, Germany, etc. are also poor. Somehow I don't think you believe that (that those countries are poor). Just as an FYI since we're going to use relative poverty and not absolute to make our arguments there are a lot of blue states that score very poorly:
NM is second worst and DC is in the bottom 10, and a host of others in the <50% percentile, but you are right for the most part Southern states are typically located in the bottom 15% percentile. It is odd though you are able to draw a line from slavery to jim crow to today to say why black folks have poor net wealth, but you don't also make the same argument for why Southern states have higher poverty rates than their Northern brethren like a history of agrarian states, poor manufacturing base, exploitation with Reconstruction and history of tariffs which disproportionally hurt Southern states is not responsible for their lag behind the others. Intriguing. Anyways, my point more generally is its disingenuous to compare the secession states to the other US states - you need to compare them to the rest of the world. You won't ever do that because even the worst state in this country is better than most other first world countries which is counter-factual to your warped world view.
The fact is if the Republican states withdrew they would be the second richest country in the world.
PS: issues of legality of declaring independence is moot. No one cares about that if they're to that stage. Almost every independence movement has been "illegal". I doubt HK care if they're breaking CCP laws to defend their democracy.
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On December 13 2020 04:54 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 04:37 TheYango wrote:On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans Not just that, I would expect that the will to secede in cities, which make up a huge percentage of that GDP, is very low. Exactly, take texas minus Austin, Houston and Dallas. Or Georgia Minus Atlanta. It is not going to work out well.
Take CA and exclude their farming and agriculture base, San Diego, and it doesn't look as good either. It is pretty common knowledge that cities will almost always have higher GDP because capital concentrates in cities and capital is what grows economies (not consumption). There's a reason Southern states started from way behind Northern states - agrarian economies are poorer than capital intensive economies. There are still a lot of Republicans in southern cities (many cities like Jacksonville for instance) and are Republican run. It doesn't make sense to exclude them from the picture of those states.
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On December 13 2020 06:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 06:34 Wegandi wrote:On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans The GDP per capita of Mississippi is higher than Spain, South Korea, Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, and is only ~13.5% behind France, UK, Japan, Israel and New Zealand. By the way I use MS because they have the lowest GDP per capita in the US. Florida (52k) for instance is higher than all those countries (which tops out at 42k). What is so "lol"? Sometimes I think you guys live in a VR world with your "facts" and "lols". Mississippi also has the highest poverty rate in the country (almost all the worst states are heavily Republican) as well as some of the worst healthcare, education, and infrastructure (also traits shared by deep red states). These traits also don't compare well to any peer country. Most of the states that are net drains on federal money are also red states. If Republican states seceded, they would be an incredibly poor, poorly educated, and unhealthy country with almost no worker protections and an incredibly exploitative economy. The difference is that there is no legal path to secession whereas there was for Trump to be elected. We literally fought a war that settled the legality of secession.
Kinda aware of that last point. It was more of a "don't say never" statement. Not to be taken literal.
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On December 13 2020 07:14 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 04:54 JimmiC wrote:On December 13 2020 04:37 TheYango wrote:On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans Not just that, I would expect that the will to secede in cities, which make up a huge percentage of that GDP, is very low. Exactly, take texas minus Austin, Houston and Dallas. Or Georgia Minus Atlanta. It is not going to work out well. Take CA and exclude their farming and agriculture base, San Diego, and it doesn't look as good either. It is pretty common knowledge that cities will almost always have higher GDP because capital concentrates in cities and capital is what grows economies (not consumption). There's a reason Southern states started from way behind Northern states - agrarian economies are poorer than capital intensive economies. There are still a lot of Republicans in southern cities (many cities like Jacksonville for instance) and are Republican run. It doesn't make sense to exclude them from the picture of those states.
Doesn't really matter much anymore. Agriculture has increasingly become concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people. The US also has such a food surplus that I'm pretty doubtful that a mass secession by rural areas would actually get them any more influence (at best, they could limit certain types of food). They'd also ALL lose a ton of money instantly, as farms are massively subsidized for pretty sound reasons by the federal government.
Anyways, secession is basically the "move to canada" of republicans, but way dumber. The same proportion of people are thinking about seriously following through on it, but that results in a couple people moving to Canada and 0 secessions.
It's way dumber because secession requires you get 95%+ of your populace on board. They've not done that. There's no state in the country even close to the required numbers, and I doubt there are even that many counties either.
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On December 13 2020 07:01 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 06:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 13 2020 06:34 Wegandi wrote:On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans The GDP per capita of Mississippi is higher than Spain, South Korea, Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, and is only ~13.5% behind France, UK, Japan, Israel and New Zealand. By the way I use MS because they have the lowest GDP per capita in the US. Florida (52k) for instance is higher than all those countries (which tops out at 42k). What is so "lol"? Sometimes I think you guys live in a VR world with your "facts" and "lols". Mississippi also has the highest poverty rate in the country (almost all the worst states are heavily Republican) as well as some of the worst healthcare, education, and infrastructure (also traits shared by deep red states). These traits also don't compare well to any peer country. Most of the states that are net drains on federal money are also red states. If Republican states seceded, they would be an incredibly poor, poorly educated, and unhealthy country with almost no worker protections and an incredibly exploitative economy. trump was unlikely too. Here we are The difference is that there is no legal path to secession whereas there was for Trump to be elected. We literally fought a war that settled the legality of secession. If Republican states (add NH here too which is around 75k ppp) left they would not be poor, unless you think France, UK, Japan, Israel, South Korea, Germany, etc. are also poor. Somehow I don't think you believe that (that those countries are poor). Just as an FYI since we're going to use relative poverty and not absolute to make our arguments there are a lot of blue states that score very poorly: NM is second worst and DC is in the bottom 10, and a host of others in the <50% percentile, but you are right for the most part Southern states are typically located in the bottom 15% percentile. It is odd though you are able to draw a line from slavery to jim crow to today to say why black folks have poor net wealth, but you don't also make the same argument for why Southern states have higher poverty rates than their Northern brethren like a history of agrarian states, poor manufacturing base, exploitation with Reconstruction and history of tariffs which disproportionally hurt Southern states is not responsible for their lag behind the others. Intriguing. Anyways, my point more generally is its disingenuous to compare the secession states to the other US states - you need to compare them to the rest of the world. You won't ever do that because even the worst state in this country is better than most other first world countries which is counter-factual to your warped world view. The fact is if the Republican states withdrew they would be the second richest country in the world. PS: issues of legality of declaring independence is moot. No one cares about that if they're to that stage. Almost every independence movement has been "illegal". I doubt HK care if they're breaking CCP laws to defend their democracy.
The US also happens to be an incredibly unequal country. It does not help much that GDP if it all goes to the top 5%, and people who work full time are still in poverty.
Spain is considered one of the poorer countries of the EU with a very fragile economy (see how the 2008 crisis hit), but if that is your standard for doing well, then so be it.
It is also puzzling to me how the Texas AG and Senators so directly contradict each other. You don't hear often that people "struggle to understand the theory" of what others within the same party "suggests to form a new alliance of law-abiding states" over.
Is a complete implosion incoming?
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On December 13 2020 07:55 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 07:01 Wegandi wrote:On December 13 2020 06:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 13 2020 06:34 Wegandi wrote:On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans The GDP per capita of Mississippi is higher than Spain, South Korea, Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, and is only ~13.5% behind France, UK, Japan, Israel and New Zealand. By the way I use MS because they have the lowest GDP per capita in the US. Florida (52k) for instance is higher than all those countries (which tops out at 42k). What is so "lol"? Sometimes I think you guys live in a VR world with your "facts" and "lols". Mississippi also has the highest poverty rate in the country (almost all the worst states are heavily Republican) as well as some of the worst healthcare, education, and infrastructure (also traits shared by deep red states). These traits also don't compare well to any peer country. Most of the states that are net drains on federal money are also red states. If Republican states seceded, they would be an incredibly poor, poorly educated, and unhealthy country with almost no worker protections and an incredibly exploitative economy. trump was unlikely too. Here we are The difference is that there is no legal path to secession whereas there was for Trump to be elected. We literally fought a war that settled the legality of secession. If Republican states (add NH here too which is around 75k ppp) left they would not be poor, unless you think France, UK, Japan, Israel, South Korea, Germany, etc. are also poor. Somehow I don't think you believe that (that those countries are poor). Just as an FYI since we're going to use relative poverty and not absolute to make our arguments there are a lot of blue states that score very poorly: NM is second worst and DC is in the bottom 10, and a host of others in the <50% percentile, but you are right for the most part Southern states are typically located in the bottom 15% percentile. It is odd though you are able to draw a line from slavery to jim crow to today to say why black folks have poor net wealth, but you don't also make the same argument for why Southern states have higher poverty rates than their Northern brethren like a history of agrarian states, poor manufacturing base, exploitation with Reconstruction and history of tariffs which disproportionally hurt Southern states is not responsible for their lag behind the others. Intriguing. Anyways, my point more generally is its disingenuous to compare the secession states to the other US states - you need to compare them to the rest of the world. You won't ever do that because even the worst state in this country is better than most other first world countries which is counter-factual to your warped world view. The fact is if the Republican states withdrew they would be the second richest country in the world. PS: issues of legality of declaring independence is moot. No one cares about that if they're to that stage. Almost every independence movement has been "illegal". I doubt HK care if they're breaking CCP laws to defend their democracy. The US also happens to be an incredibly unequal country. It does not help much that GDP if it all goes to the top 5%, and people who work full time are still in poverty. Spain is considered one of the poorer countries of the EU with a very fragile economy (see how the 2008 crisis hit), but if that is your standard for doing well, then so be it. It is also puzzling to me how the Texas AG and Senators so directly contradict each other. You don't hear often that people "struggle to understand the theory" of what others within the same party "suggests to form a new alliance of law-abiding states" over. Is a complete implosion incoming? They hated Trump yet rallied behind him entirely when he won the nomination.
Until republicans fail to rally behind their 2024 candidate I don't believe in an actual implosion of the party.
Fighting among themselves is something that happens often enough, just as it happens with the progressive and conservative wings of the Democrats. Its a big part of why Congress couldn't get much done in the first half of Trumps term, the older parts of the GoP got stonewalled by the Tea party section.
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On December 13 2020 07:14 Wegandi wrote:
Take CA and exclude their farming and agriculture base, San Diego, and it doesn't look as good either. It is pretty common knowledge that cities will almost always have higher GDP because capital concentrates in cities and capital is what grows economies (not consumption). There's a reason Southern states started from way behind Northern states - agrarian economies are poorer than capital intensive economies. There are still a lot of Republicans in southern cities (many cities like Jacksonville for instance) and are Republican run. It doesn't make sense to exclude them from the picture of those states.
The point isn't about whether cities or rural areas are more "important" to the economies of these states. The point is that the economies of these states are built on the interdependence of both and there's no functional way for secession to happen if most of the rural population wants to but most of the urban population doesn't. If you tried to split Urban Texas from Rural Texas, you would end up with two non-functional state economies, and the will to secede is very low in urban Texas.
Secession worked in 1860 because most of the disagreements could be split on geographical/regional lines. That's literally impossible today because the political divide is mostly rural/urban. Cities in deep red states still lean heavily blue, and rural areas in deep blue states are still heavily red. You can't cleanly split the country this way. As Nevuk said, you have to basically get everyone onboard for it to work, and that's basically impossible--not just from a legal standpoint, but from a logistical standpoint.
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On December 13 2020 07:55 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 07:01 Wegandi wrote:On December 13 2020 06:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 13 2020 06:34 Wegandi wrote:On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans The GDP per capita of Mississippi is higher than Spain, South Korea, Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, and is only ~13.5% behind France, UK, Japan, Israel and New Zealand. By the way I use MS because they have the lowest GDP per capita in the US. Florida (52k) for instance is higher than all those countries (which tops out at 42k). What is so "lol"? Sometimes I think you guys live in a VR world with your "facts" and "lols". Mississippi also has the highest poverty rate in the country (almost all the worst states are heavily Republican) as well as some of the worst healthcare, education, and infrastructure (also traits shared by deep red states). These traits also don't compare well to any peer country. Most of the states that are net drains on federal money are also red states. If Republican states seceded, they would be an incredibly poor, poorly educated, and unhealthy country with almost no worker protections and an incredibly exploitative economy. trump was unlikely too. Here we are The difference is that there is no legal path to secession whereas there was for Trump to be elected. We literally fought a war that settled the legality of secession. If Republican states (add NH here too which is around 75k ppp) left they would not be poor, unless you think France, UK, Japan, Israel, South Korea, Germany, etc. are also poor. Somehow I don't think you believe that (that those countries are poor). Just as an FYI since we're going to use relative poverty and not absolute to make our arguments there are a lot of blue states that score very poorly: NM is second worst and DC is in the bottom 10, and a host of others in the <50% percentile, but you are right for the most part Southern states are typically located in the bottom 15% percentile. It is odd though you are able to draw a line from slavery to jim crow to today to say why black folks have poor net wealth, but you don't also make the same argument for why Southern states have higher poverty rates than their Northern brethren like a history of agrarian states, poor manufacturing base, exploitation with Reconstruction and history of tariffs which disproportionally hurt Southern states is not responsible for their lag behind the others. Intriguing. Anyways, my point more generally is its disingenuous to compare the secession states to the other US states - you need to compare them to the rest of the world. You won't ever do that because even the worst state in this country is better than most other first world countries which is counter-factual to your warped world view. The fact is if the Republican states withdrew they would be the second richest country in the world. PS: issues of legality of declaring independence is moot. No one cares about that if they're to that stage. Almost every independence movement has been "illegal". I doubt HK care if they're breaking CCP laws to defend their democracy. The US also happens to be an incredibly unequal country. It does not help much that GDP if it all goes to the top 5%, and people who work full time are still in poverty. Spain is considered one of the poorer countries of the EU with a very fragile economy (see how the 2008 crisis hit), but if that is your standard for doing well, then so be it. It is also puzzling to me how the Texas AG and Senators so directly contradict each other. You don't hear often that people "struggle to understand the theory" of what others within the same party "suggests to form a new alliance of law-abiding states" over. Is a complete implosion incoming?
Measuring how "rich" the residents of one country are compared to residents of another is not straightforward I think.
Having been to 'poorer' parts of the US the notion that the people of Mississippi are "richer" than the people in most of western Europe sounds surprising to me.
It seem that measured by GDP/capita PPP Wegandi is mostly right (Missispi has higher GDP/capita than most western European countries. (However he is wrong that the New Confederation would be the second richest country in the world by this metric, it wouldn't be, not even by a long shot)
Since the gdp/capita metric showed a result that's quite un-intuitive, at least to me, lets look at some other metrics for how 'well off' people are.
Life expectancy:
Spain - 83.3 years.
Mississippi - 74.7 years.
Infant mortality rate:
Spain: 2.6/1000
Mississippi: 8.7/1000
Literacy rate:
Spain: 98.8%
Mississippi: 84%
Prevalence of food insecurity:
Spain - 8.6%
Mississippi: 16% to 18%
Murder rate
Spain - 0.7 per 100k
Mississippi: 12.7 per 100k
Median Household wealth:
Spain: 95k dollars
US (couldnt find median wealth for Mississippi alone): 65k dollars.
Average hours worked per worker per year:
Spain: 1686 hours
US (couldnt find state breakdown): 1789 hours
Based on the above, If a genie told me I was about to be reborn as a random adult living in either Spain, or Mississippi, I would pick Spain. I would be less likely to die early. My children would be more likely to learn how to read and less likely to die from infection or trauma in their first year of life. I would be less likely to go hungry and I would have more assets to my name, and I would work fewer hours per year for those assets. I would also be much less likely to be randomly murdered.
Here is another funny example of why GDP/capita is perhaps not the best metric for measuring how well off average people are: https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/gdp-per-capita time trend of GDP/capita in ireland. This metric suggests that between 2012 and 2018 the average person in Ireland became almost twice as well off (fine 1.8 times). This does not square with the experience of anyone from Ireland I know.
sources (this is not a research project, i have tried to compare apples to apples where possible, but to do this this kind of analysis for real would take someone working full time for several months.)
+ Show Spoiler +
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Your source says it's English literacy rate. California has an even lower score of 76.90%.
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On December 13 2020 07:01 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2020 06:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 13 2020 06:34 Wegandi wrote:On December 13 2020 03:42 Mohdoo wrote:On December 13 2020 02:59 Starlightsun wrote:
I wonder what kind of pivot Mitch McConnell and his ilk would make if the cries to secede became loud enough. Though morally bankrupt they aren't stupid, and surely they wouldn't just quietly trade their current power for rulership of an impoverished, third-world hell hole. Yeah taking a quick gander at GDP per state, secession is a very lol idea from salty republicans The GDP per capita of Mississippi is higher than Spain, South Korea, Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, and is only ~13.5% behind France, UK, Japan, Israel and New Zealand. By the way I use MS because they have the lowest GDP per capita in the US. Florida (52k) for instance is higher than all those countries (which tops out at 42k). What is so "lol"? Sometimes I think you guys live in a VR world with your "facts" and "lols". Mississippi also has the highest poverty rate in the country (almost all the worst states are heavily Republican) as well as some of the worst healthcare, education, and infrastructure (also traits shared by deep red states). These traits also don't compare well to any peer country. Most of the states that are net drains on federal money are also red states. If Republican states seceded, they would be an incredibly poor, poorly educated, and unhealthy country with almost no worker protections and an incredibly exploitative economy. trump was unlikely too. Here we are The difference is that there is no legal path to secession whereas there was for Trump to be elected. We literally fought a war that settled the legality of secession. If Republican states (add NH here too which is around 75k ppp) left they would not be poor, unless you think France, UK, Japan, Israel, South Korea, Germany, etc. are also poor. Somehow I don't think you believe that (that those countries are poor). Just as an FYI since we're going to use relative poverty and not absolute to make our arguments there are a lot of blue states that score very poorly: NM is second worst and DC is in the bottom 10, and a host of others in the <50% percentile, but you are right for the most part Southern states are typically located in the bottom 15% percentile. It is odd though you are able to draw a line from slavery to jim crow to today to say why black folks have poor net wealth, but you don't also make the same argument for why Southern states have higher poverty rates than their Northern brethren like a history of agrarian states, poor manufacturing base, exploitation with Reconstruction and history of tariffs which disproportionally hurt Southern states is not responsible for their lag behind the others. Intriguing. Anyways, my point more generally is its disingenuous to compare the secession states to the other US states - you need to compare them to the rest of the world. You won't ever do that because even the worst state in this country is better than most other first world countries which is counter-factual to your warped world view. The fact is if the Republican states withdrew they would be the second richest country in the world. PS: issues of legality of declaring independence is moot. No one cares about that if they're to that stage. Almost every independence movement has been "illegal". I doubt HK care if they're breaking CCP laws to defend their democracy.
Your definition of "poor" is very limited, since the average is skewed by the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few in this country.
I also said "the majority" concerning states, so your second paragraph is moot. D.C. isn't a state, by the way.
Concerning the role that history plays in black people's current situation and the economy, i literally never said any of that. In fact, I 100% agree that the Southern economy developed out of complex historical factors that still influence it today. The problem here is that you tried to attribute an argument to me that was not only false, but literally completely out of nowhere. You should probably check yourself on that.
As mentioned above, life in poor U.S. states is absolutely worse than many, many other first world countries, and this is supported by a wealth of objective metrics. I could list 15 countries I would choose to live in before Mississippi purely based on quality of life.
Also, legality matters in terms of how easy it was for Trump to be elected vs. How likely it is for secession is to happen. You would need widespread support for committing treason and embarking on a violent overthrow of the federal government compared to just voting for a terrible person in a legally organized election.
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I wasn't comparing California and Mississippi. I brought up California because its score makes it obvious the source isn't providing general literacy rates. Some Europeans here might believe 16% of Mississippi's population is illiterate, but no one would believe almost every fourth person in California can't read and write.
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EPT
