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On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Oh right, "the cuts will pay for themselves" by increasing economic activity. Which was utter nonsense when it benefited the group least likely to actually spend money. This is basically the opposite, where the vast majority of beneficiaries would immediately spend the money elsewhere.
Such as continuing to pay rent. I don't necessarily fault him for the argument, but the goalposts have been shifting to constantly put more blame, burden, and responsibility on the working class, and especially the younger generation just trying to break into the workforce, since Boomers had a say in it.
These people can't contribute to the economy. We don't have jobs because we're in a pandemic and economic crisis and we were deemed the most expendable. Where do they think the money's coming from...?
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On December 01 2020 10:28 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Oh right, "the cuts will pay for themselves" by increasing economic activity. Which was utter nonsense when it benefited the group least likely to actually spend money. This is basically the opposite, where the vast majority of beneficiaries would immediately spend the money elsewhere. Such as continuing to pay rent. I don't necessarily fault him for the argument, but the goalposts have been shifting to constantly put more blame, burden, and responsibility on the working class, and especially the younger generation just trying to break into the workforce, since Boomers had a say in it. These people can't contribute to the economy. We don't have jobs because we're in a pandemic and economic crisis and we were deemed the most expendable. Where do they think the money's coming from...?
The key point is that we don't need to mathematically solve human society. We just need to make it better. Student loan payments stimulating the economy and allowing millennials to have kids is a large improvement for the country.
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United States10154 Posts
On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?"
Depends on your definition of weasel out. I certainly am on the side that stupid college majors/decisions lead to poor jobs in the future, but that's obviously a very hot topic. It's abundantly clear that not all majors/jobs are created equal, a sociology/ethnic studies major isn't going to find a job as good as STEM majors. But even then, I don't think I call that "weaseling" out. Weaseling out would be people who actually have those good high 5 figure/6 figure jobs that choose not to contribute to their debt in hopes of loan forgiveness, and that population is probably very very low.
Also, it's always funny to see people complain about the deficit/debt that the US has to pay when in reality, no one actually gives a shit about debt. If you truly wanted to solve the debt, you'd destroy the inefficiencies that the US currently has with the bureaucratic system and push for higher taxes.
Democrats want to raise taxes, but then also expand on government programs, Republicans want to cut taxes, but then also raise the military budget but hundreds of billions per year. Regardless of how you look at it, debt will never be fixed. It's just a nonsensical argument, nothing will be done about it and it's just a talking point to say to raise or lower taxes/government funding. Fuck all that nonsense.
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This mindset that people who want loan forgiveness are just trying to weasel out of payments they can make is so toxic and shows a huge disconnect between the different classes in this country. Just like UHC provides free healthcare to people who could pay in a private healthcare system, federal loan forgiveness provides for those who can technically pay in the current system. That doesn't make either of these ideas bad unless you already believe that universal systems that benefit everyone instead of just those in poverty is wrong. Federal student loans are a financial crisis across the US and I really have to wonder about how comfortable of a life you must have if your first thought towards addressing that problem is, "People just want to weasel out on loans".
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On December 01 2020 10:31 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:28 NewSunshine wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Oh right, "the cuts will pay for themselves" by increasing economic activity. Which was utter nonsense when it benefited the group least likely to actually spend money. This is basically the opposite, where the vast majority of beneficiaries would immediately spend the money elsewhere. Such as continuing to pay rent. I don't necessarily fault him for the argument, but the goalposts have been shifting to constantly put more blame, burden, and responsibility on the working class, and especially the younger generation just trying to break into the workforce, since Boomers had a say in it. These people can't contribute to the economy. We don't have jobs because we're in a pandemic and economic crisis and we were deemed the most expendable. Where do they think the money's coming from...? The key point is that we don't need to mathematically solve human society. We just need to make it better. Student loan payments stimulating the economy and allowing millennials to have kids is a large improvement for the country.
Absolutely agreed. You don't have a next generation, as a country, when the current generation is bearing the brunt of economic collapse. Refusing to collect on student debt right now is literally an investment in its future, and definitely not something we don't have the money to do when you see how much money is genuinely wasted on the military, as an example.
But yeah, as long as we have Boomers pointing at younger folks and blaming them for all of their own problems, growing up in an economy that was broken before they ever had a chance to do something about it. Yeah, fuck them.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts?
Well, to their credit, at least those cuts actually went through Congress. You know, the branch of government that handles the budget.
Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. No one who wants loan forgiveness really seems to care about either finding the money to pay for it, or what would happen if you just wished it away via executive order. They just want their own debt deleted nuance-free.
Claiming that we don’t have a very bad debt crisis is delusional at best.
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On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it.
You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that.
Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense.
Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days.
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On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that.
He also keeps reiterating that loan forgiveness would be for a group that doesn't need it. Technically, if everyone receives loan forgiveness, yes, some people who do not necessarily need it will be given loan forgiveness. This isn't inherently a bad thing and I am failed to be convinced that a universal forgiveness on student loans would be wasting money. From a study from 2017, it was found that 78% of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck, 1 in 10 of people who make over $100,000 per year also live paycheck-to-paycheck, over 1/4 of the country does not set aside money in their savings every month, and 3/4 of workers are in debt.
http://press.careerbuilder.com/2017-08-24-Living-Paycheck-to-Paycheck-is-a-Way-of-Life-for-Majority-of-U-S-Workers-According-to-New-CareerBuilder-Survey
Again, this is from 2017. I imagine things have only gotten worse since the start of the pandemic. Many people with college degrees do not make over $100,000/year. Many people who go to college and rack up debt don't finish college either. I fail to see where any meaningful amount of "waste" will be coming from.
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On December 01 2020 10:59 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that. Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense. Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days.
Wait, so you admit that there are popular plans proposed by popular politicians to address this issue, you agree these plans are at the very least decent, and yet somehow still think people are just trying to weasel out of debt? Are you fucking serious? You don't think that, perhaps, there is a huge cross-over between people who support loan forgiveness, people who support Bernie's/Obama's plans, and people with student loans?
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On December 01 2020 09:17 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 08:58 Danglars wrote:On December 01 2020 08:44 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 01 2020 08:40 Danglars wrote:On December 01 2020 08:05 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 01 2020 06:10 Danglars wrote:On December 01 2020 05:59 FlaShFTW wrote:On December 01 2020 01:09 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 01:03 evilfatsh1t wrote:On November 30 2020 20:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I don't even think there's a grand master plan. I think he's the equivalent of a 12 year old crying maphack, it doesn't really matter if you tell him that 'but we saw that your main base was one pylon short and that you hadn't started goon range, of course we're gonna scout for proxies', he just needs an excuse for losing. The guy is a notorious cheater in golf, I can't really picture him doing anything 'legit'. this is a slight derail but since i dont play or watch golf; how the hell do you cheat in golf? on a typical amateur course isnt your opponent walking along with you and seeing you take each shot? You just lie on your card at the end. On top of moving the ball around like Yurie said. While your opponent does watch you, it's not like they're really recording every single swing you make, and if they are, you just say "oh, I guess I miscounted" and accuse them of being a poor sport. Golfer stepping in to answer this: yeah pretty much. You "miscount" strokes, you improve your lie, you avoid penalties by "finding" your ball when in reality it went out of bounds or into a hazard. There's no doubt with Trump's swing that he's a liar, just like he's a liar in the White House. A golfer's personality translates directly to their playstyle, case in point: Patrick Reed is an asshole who has cheated many times on the tour (improving lie many times). The fact that he's not banned still pisses me off. On December 01 2020 05:57 Danglars wrote:
Canceling student loan debt would be unlikely to survive legal challenge if made by the president and not by act of Congress.
Imagine a Republican president deciding certain kinds of taxes were too high or unfair and dictating to the IRS to cease collecting them (let’s say payroll tax) or issue no penalties for nonpayment.
I don’t think it’s even desirable to give presidents that kind of power, assuming some court decides it’s constitutionally allowable. Rather than just say that it wouldn't survive a legal challenge, would you care to submit to us the Constitutional section or relevant USC rule that states the president cannot do something like cancel student loan debt via executive powers? Simply put, the power of the purse is in Congress. Tax, spend, appropriations, subsidies. You can appeal to some of the lawyers around these parts for the argument that something in the Higher Education Act can be twisted to support this. You should know when asking a conservative that it involves where in the constitution and its amendments that it grants the executive branch the power to do it, rather than deny him/her the power. The executive powers are not expansive such that they must be specifically constrained or the authority rests in that branch. So the executive branch still controls quite a bit of the power that Congress has WILLINGLY given to the executive branch. You learn this stuff in statutory interpretations FYI. When Congress started shedding more and more of their power to the executive, now you enter a realm where these powers can be used for things that ordinarily would be left to Congress to decide. Here's some good information on the potential for the executive branch to forgive student debt. The Department of Education potentially has that power. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/21/can-joe-biden-forgive-student-debt-without-congress-experts-weigh-in.html A majority of justices on the Supreme Court now have a more originalist/textualist bent when judging on delegated powers. If we’re talking what I mentioned on the Higher Education Act, that hinges on the limitations of the act (written into the law) to existing authority and the details within the law on new powers. The question is whether the text and/or authors understood it to include authorizing up to actual forgiveness of 15 trillion in student loan debt, and whether the department of education was already understood to have that power. Both are quite a mighty big lift. Maybe you have another act that accidentally gave the president authority to forgive 15 trillion dollars in loans, compared to more common existing authority to alter aspects of repayment terms which you can read more about at your leisure. See, for example, Forbes summary. See also the dissents on Trump’s rescinding of the DACA order for how the new majority views executive orders made in light of Congressional indecision on the subject (or multiple bills proposed but electing not to pass). The ordinary use of Congress delegating powers to executive departments is more applicable in less sweeping changes than the mass of student loan debt. See for example the Supreme Court decision this year on the clean water act and Hawaii. It was about this thing, but now they’re extending it to this (putatively) functionally equivalent thing, and even then there was disagreement. One could argue that Trump v. Hawaii is a pretty massive sweeping change to what the President can do in terms of immigration policy. Why pick a decision that had an act granting broad discretion to the president? You’re citing something where a group thought they could take back delegated powers (second guess their use, etc. ironically, another thing you would want an act of Congress to remove from the presidency, since it was granted), and acting like it’s the same as claiming Congress delegated matters like student loan forgiveness to the department of education. Did I miss an act that says the department of education may nix any student loans backed by the fed for purposes of national security? It has nothing to do with national security, but I'm not sure why national security has to be the only reason the executive branch has power. As if the executive could only act in power for the interest of national security. "The U.S. Department of Education is the agency of the federal government that establishes policy for, administers and coordinates most federal assistance to education. It assists the president in executing his education policies for the nation and in implementing laws enacted by Congress." https://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/focus/what.html#:~:text=The U.S. Department of Education is the agency of the,implementing laws enacted by Congress. Huh... federal assistance to education... one might make an argument that loan forgiveness might assist education by allowing more access to education for those who might not necessarily be able to afford it. It would also be an educational policy to forgive student loans, or it could be a congressional bill. Either way, the idea that there is nothing in the Constitution to grant this power is an inaccurate argument at best. Surely, if it reaches the supreme court I doubt it would actually get through, but the Supreme Court is a joke in this era.
Hmm, Immigration and Nationality Act passed by Congress vests the President with authority to restrict the entry of aliens whenever he finds that their entry would be detrimental to the interests of the United States. Sounds like Congress delegated that power. US Dept of Education ... I'm looking for where it similarly says that the student loans of the nation shall be dischargeable by the Secretary of Education when he deems it appropriate. Just because your department says it was founded to promote a goal, does not empower it to take whatever steps it deems necessary to accomplish it without Congressional act. It could be done through act of Congress, it cannot be done by Biden and executive order. The best you got is some kind of suspension of all interest and repayment (similar to COVID), and keep reupping that in perpetuity. You're way off base citing a law (lawsuit over it) that expressly vests the president with actual listed powers, and a list of policy goals and overseeing responsibilities. That would be why the Supreme Court would strike it down, and would be right to do so.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 01 2020 11:13 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:59 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that. Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense. Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days. Wait, so you admit that there are popular plans proposed by popular politicians to address this issue, you agree these plans are at the very least decent, and yet somehow still think people are just trying to weasel out of debt? Are you fucking serious? You don't think that, perhaps, there is a huge cross-over between people who support loan forgiveness, people who support Bernie's/Obama's plans, and people with student loans?
Yeah - some people like good policy, some people want a handout for themselves whether the underlying policy is good or mind-numbingly idiotic.
If the best justification for student loan forgiveness is that we can start a debt-fueled consumption boom to pay for it, then we'd be better off writing checks to poor people and not waste our time with the people who have jobs that can still service the debt. Some sympathy to those screwed over by either the coronavirus upon graduation or by an economy that is really quite mediocre for most, but it doesn't look like most people who aggressively want student loan forgiveness really care about the consequences of doing it poorly.
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On December 01 2020 11:50 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 11:13 StasisField wrote:On December 01 2020 10:59 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that. Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense. Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days. Wait, so you admit that there are popular plans proposed by popular politicians to address this issue, you agree these plans are at the very least decent, and yet somehow still think people are just trying to weasel out of debt? Are you fucking serious? You don't think that, perhaps, there is a huge cross-over between people who support loan forgiveness, people who support Bernie's/Obama's plans, and people with student loans? Yeah - some people like good policy, some people want a handout for themselves whether the underlying policy is good or mind-numbingly idiotic. If the best justification for student loan forgiveness is that we can start a debt-fueled consumption boom to pay for it, then we'd be better off writing checks to poor people and not waste our time with the people who have jobs that can still service the debt. Some sympathy to those screwed over by either the coronavirus upon graduation or by an economy that is really quite mediocre for most, but it doesn't look like most people who aggressively want student loan forgiveness really care about the consequences of doing it poorly.
Since you seem to be arguing from the perspective that unilateral executive action is peoples' first choice, would you like to walk through the alternative and the problems therein? In other words, who are the ones actively stopping relief, of any kind, from going through Congress right now?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 01 2020 11:57 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 11:50 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 11:13 StasisField wrote:On December 01 2020 10:59 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that. Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense. Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days. Wait, so you admit that there are popular plans proposed by popular politicians to address this issue, you agree these plans are at the very least decent, and yet somehow still think people are just trying to weasel out of debt? Are you fucking serious? You don't think that, perhaps, there is a huge cross-over between people who support loan forgiveness, people who support Bernie's/Obama's plans, and people with student loans? Yeah - some people like good policy, some people want a handout for themselves whether the underlying policy is good or mind-numbingly idiotic. If the best justification for student loan forgiveness is that we can start a debt-fueled consumption boom to pay for it, then we'd be better off writing checks to poor people and not waste our time with the people who have jobs that can still service the debt. Some sympathy to those screwed over by either the coronavirus upon graduation or by an economy that is really quite mediocre for most, but it doesn't look like most people who aggressively want student loan forgiveness really care about the consequences of doing it poorly. Since you seem to be arguing from the perspective that unilateral executive action is peoples' first choice, would you like to walk through the alternative and the problems therein? In other words, who are the ones actively stopping relief, of any kind, from going through Congress right now?
Sure, let's give that a go.
At its core, the problem is that education is simply too pricey, owing to a bloated university system that spends money very inefficiently were educating people the goal. The auxiliary goals like recruiting 4-year tuition dollars and generating prestige cost lots of money and ultimately do a lot to drive costs up, aided by easy loans and a system that does an absolutely minimal amount to scrutinize this state of affairs. Outright scams like for-profit colleges were all the rage as well before Obama's presidency drove those out. You really should be addressing that problem before you start forgiving loans - otherwise, you're just going to be right back where you started in record time.
There's certainly a couple ways to approach that. Incrementally, by taking care of the low-hanging fruit (most vulnerable student debtors, free access to the cheapest forms of higher education), or all at once with a revolutionary overhaul to a free education system with a widespread loan forgiveness initiative. I could sympathize with both kinds of approaches, really.
The reason people are less interested in that than in Fairy Biden waving a magic wand and making the debt disappear is of course the lack of faith in Congress and its ability to do anything that doesn't contribute to padding the pockets of the very wealthy. Presidents have, in the past, wished away debt by executive order - Obama for for-profits, Trump for disabled veterans, and so on. But that's easy - if they were never going to pay, that's just formalizing the foregone reality of a budget shortfall. Forgiving the debt of people who would pay is much harder, especially since said student loan payments play a large role in funding the next years of federal student aid. Legislation is usually good for that.
Not that anyone really cares about policy, mind you. A lot of people in the educated and well-off-but-not-wealthy group just want their student loans to go away, consequences be damned. I sympathize with those who simply didn't get their money's worth for an overpriced education, but those aren't the ones most aggressively campaigning for debt forgiveness for themselves.
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On December 01 2020 11:50 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 11:13 StasisField wrote:On December 01 2020 10:59 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that. Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense. Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days. Wait, so you admit that there are popular plans proposed by popular politicians to address this issue, you agree these plans are at the very least decent, and yet somehow still think people are just trying to weasel out of debt? Are you fucking serious? You don't think that, perhaps, there is a huge cross-over between people who support loan forgiveness, people who support Bernie's/Obama's plans, and people with student loans? Yeah - some people like good policy, some people want a handout for themselves whether the underlying policy is good or mind-numbingly idiotic.
If the best justification for student loan forgiveness is that we can start a debt-fueled consumption boom to pay for it, then we'd be better off writing checks to poor people and not waste our time with the people who have jobs that can still service the debt. Some sympathy to those screwed over by either the coronavirus upon graduation or by an economy that is really quite mediocre for most, but it doesn't look like most people who aggressively want student loan forgiveness really care about the consequences of doing it poorly.
So then what's your point? Pointing out that some amount of people will generally support bad policy no matter what is pretty fucking pointless. Dressing up this obvious PoV with "they just want to weasel out of their responsibilities" doesn't make your argument stronger. All you have done is explained why you think people might support bad federal student loan policy.
There can be multiple avenues taken at once to solve a problem. The "best" justification (in this case, the justification acts as a partial solution) doesn't have to be the only solution applied to a problem and I don't think anyone here has argued that student load debt should be forgiven with nothing else done in addition to that. You're arguing against something no one here has said. Everyone knows this issue is more complex than "just make the debt magically go away and do nothing else". No one is saying to stop at forgiving the debt. People are saying that it's a good starting point and that the extra spending money people will have because of it will help reduce the impact it will have on the deficit and will help the economy. I feel like you're working from the assumption that the people talking about student loan forgiveness via Executive Order in a positive way are dumb, selfish, and shortsighted.
EDIT: This feels a lot like when people kept asking Bernie how he was going to pay for UHC after stating he was going to grant Medicare for All via EO by lowering the age requirement by 10 years for 4 years. There are plans out there that address these concerns but people would rather pretend they don't exist and act like the people in support of it are freeloaders who don't understand basic math.
Sanders' proposed Speculation Tax on Wall Street would cover an estimated $2.4 trillion and the US's total student loan debt is ~$1.6 trillion.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/free-college-cancel-debt/
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/see-how-student-loan-borrowing-has-risen-in-10-years#:~:text=The national student loan debt,are behind on their payments.
The Speculation Tax is at the bottom of Sanders' page and the usnews link I provided should direct you straight to the estimated total for US student loan debt.
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United States42649 Posts
On December 01 2020 10:33 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" Depends on your definition of weasel out. I certainly am on the side that stupid college majors/decisions lead to poor jobs in the future, but that's obviously a very hot topic. It's abundantly clear that not all majors/jobs are created equal, a sociology/ethnic studies major isn't going to find a job as good as STEM majors.
Citation needed. It’s baffling to me that people think studying human society is so worthless. You’re a human, you live in society, having people who know how it works is directly important to you.
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On December 01 2020 12:47 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 11:57 NewSunshine wrote:On December 01 2020 11:50 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 11:13 StasisField wrote:On December 01 2020 10:59 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that. Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense. Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days. Wait, so you admit that there are popular plans proposed by popular politicians to address this issue, you agree these plans are at the very least decent, and yet somehow still think people are just trying to weasel out of debt? Are you fucking serious? You don't think that, perhaps, there is a huge cross-over between people who support loan forgiveness, people who support Bernie's/Obama's plans, and people with student loans? Yeah - some people like good policy, some people want a handout for themselves whether the underlying policy is good or mind-numbingly idiotic. If the best justification for student loan forgiveness is that we can start a debt-fueled consumption boom to pay for it, then we'd be better off writing checks to poor people and not waste our time with the people who have jobs that can still service the debt. Some sympathy to those screwed over by either the coronavirus upon graduation or by an economy that is really quite mediocre for most, but it doesn't look like most people who aggressively want student loan forgiveness really care about the consequences of doing it poorly. Since you seem to be arguing from the perspective that unilateral executive action is peoples' first choice, would you like to walk through the alternative and the problems therein? In other words, who are the ones actively stopping relief, of any kind, from going through Congress right now? Sure, let's give that a go. At its core, the problem is that education is simply too pricey, owing to a bloated university system that spends money very inefficiently were educating people the goal. The auxiliary goals like recruiting 4-year tuition dollars and generating prestige cost lots of money and ultimately do a lot to drive costs up, aided by easy loans and a system that does an absolutely minimal amount to scrutinize this state of affairs. Outright scams like for-profit colleges were all the rage as well before Obama's presidency drove those out. You really should be addressing that problem before you start forgiving loans - otherwise, you're just going to be right back where you started in record time. There's certainly a couple ways to approach that. Incrementally, by taking care of the low-hanging fruit (most vulnerable student debtors, free access to the cheapest forms of higher education), or all at once with a revolutionary overhaul to a free education system with a widespread loan forgiveness initiative. I could sympathize with both kinds of approaches, really. The reason people are less interested in that than in Fairy Biden waving a magic wand and making the debt disappear is of course the lack of faith in Congress and its ability to do anything that doesn't contribute to padding the pockets of the very wealthy. Presidents have, in the past, wished away debt by executive order - Obama for for-profits, Trump for disabled veterans, and so on. But that's easy - if they were never going to pay, that's just formalizing the foregone reality of a budget shortfall. Forgiving the debt of people who would pay is much harder, especially since said student loan payments play a large role in funding the next years of federal student aid. Legislation is usually good for that. Not that anyone really cares about policy, mind you. A lot of people in the educated and well-off-but-not-wealthy group just want their student loans to go away, consequences be damned. I sympathize with those who simply didn't get their money's worth for an overpriced education, but those aren't the ones most aggressively campaigning for debt forgiveness for themselves.
I appreciate the response and don't really disagree much. The problem is, of course, in creating and passing legislation. We have a Senate Majority Leader who boasts about how much he says no to anything that tries to pass him by, and even if McConnell were to actually allow votes on bills that have made it that far, other Republicans and probably some Democrats would still make sure it contains plenty of pork for corporate super-donors. Getting McConnell out of his role and stripping his abusive powers from him is the first step to doing anything besides Executive Orders, and even that is extremely unlikely to happen, whether in January or in 2022. I don't think anyone here disagrees that there are large-scale improvements that could be made that would solve the root of the problem, but right now it's all complicated in what can be achieved through pretty much just the presidency alone.
And for what it's worth, it's all the same to me personally whether I get student loan forgiveness, or I actually get some tangible form of COVID relief from this administration. I've been doing my damnedest to keep a home in my name right now, and nothing is giving for me anytime soon. To his credit, even Trump tried to do more there. But McConnell, predictably, wouldn't allow it. People are focusing a lot right now on what Biden can do assuming the Senate is still against him, because it will be, and that precludes any more substantial solutions.
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On December 01 2020 10:59 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that. Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense.Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days.
This is incredibly disingenuous.
Proponents of cancelling all student debt have been the most vocal proponents of widespread post-secondary education reform for at least a decade. They are the exact same people pushing for free or extremely affordable college across the board.
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On December 01 2020 11:50 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2020 11:13 StasisField wrote:On December 01 2020 10:59 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:50 Mohdoo wrote:On December 01 2020 10:48 LegalLord wrote:On December 01 2020 10:25 Nevuk wrote:On December 01 2020 10:11 LegalLord wrote:
So what's the magic plan for handling the hole in the budget left from either forgiving or permanently pausing payments on student loans? Bonus points if you can do it without Congress.
We already have one whopper of a debt crisis, why bother making more of one for the benefit of a cause as unworthy as "bail out 30 year olds that can pay but want to weasel out of the loans they took on?" What was the plan to pay for the GOP tax cuts? Forgiving student loans without a longer term plan just for the benefit of a group that doesn’t need it would not just be spending money you don’t have, it would be wasting it. You're completely ignoring the fact that removing student debt allows people to spend that money on other things. There are plenty of benefits of that. Sure - with a plan, it’s not a bad idea. But unless you start arranging for either free or very low cost education for all, it’s little more than a transfer of money to Millennials at the expense of the next generation. Or just another print-and-spend play like we’ve been doing at an alarming rate over the past two decades. Problem is, no one who wants loan forgiveness around here really wants to do it right and implement a proper overhaul, they just want to weasel away a chunk of cash for themselves at someone else’s expense. Obama’s idea for free community college was pretty nice. Bernie’s plans involving taxing wealth were decent too. Passing it through executive order is an idiot’s play, but that’s what people seem to like these days. Wait, so you admit that there are popular plans proposed by popular politicians to address this issue, you agree these plans are at the very least decent, and yet somehow still think people are just trying to weasel out of debt? Are you fucking serious? You don't think that, perhaps, there is a huge cross-over between people who support loan forgiveness, people who support Bernie's/Obama's plans, and people with student loans? Yeah - some people like good policy, some people want a handout for themselves whether the underlying policy is good or mind-numbingly idiotic. If the best justification for student loan forgiveness is that we can start a debt-fueled consumption boom to pay for it, then we'd be better off writing checks to poor people and not waste our time with the people who have jobs that can still service the debt. Some sympathy to those screwed over by either the coronavirus upon graduation or by an economy that is really quite mediocre for most, but it doesn't look like most people who aggressively want student loan forgiveness really care about the consequences of doing it poorly.
Can I get you on board making student loan debt dischargeable through personal bankruptcy or taxing university endowments?
All joking aside, it's nice to see some people around these parts that can both acknowledge problems and also acknowledge the most imbecilic ways of "addressing them."
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EPT
