EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2869
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10367 Posts
On December 01 2020 13:05 KwarK wrote: Citation needed. It’s baffling to me that people think studying human society is so worthless. You’re a human, you live in society, having people who know how it works is directly important to you. I never said it was worthless. I said it is much easier to pay off a student loan if you go into STEM. Humanities majors typically require you to go into post-bach education in order to rise in the ranks, you don't get very far with just an undergrad diploma. https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-salaries-college-degrees/ Play around with it the Georgetown model and it'll be abundantly clear, there are far more 6-figure jobs or easier to get 6-figure jobs for STEM than humanities. Capitalism simply dictates what is a preferred skill, and with a rapidly developing technological world that is now looking at machine learning as the new hot topic, it's no wonder why computer science majors are so heavily sought after. Meanwhile all my poli sci friends including myself are either satisfied with a middling salary around 60k/year or trying to go for post-grad educations like JD/LLM/Masters programs. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On December 01 2020 22:56 iamthedave wrote: Out of curiousity, what level of salary PA would someone need to pay off their student debt in a reasonable time? Obviously it'll vary by degree but I assume there must be an average of sorts. Rule of thumb that students are told is, “student loans not to exceed one year’s salary.” I’d say that’s about the upper bound of what is affordable for the notional 10 year payoff that student loans are means for. As at least one reference point, if you took a loan of $70k at 6 percent interest, that’d be just under $800 a month - marginally serviceable on a $70k salary in most US cities. It’s when you’re out of a job or unable to find one that earns what your degree is notionally supposed to earn that you start having real trouble. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On December 01 2020 23:51 LegalLord wrote: Rule of thumb that students are told is, “student loans not to exceed one year’s salary.” I’d say that’s about the upper bound of what is affordable for the notional 10 year payoff that student loans are means for. As at least one reference point, if you took a loan of $70k at 6 percent interest, that’d be just under $800 a month - marginally serviceable on a $70k salary in most US cities. It’s when you’re out of a job or unable to find one that earns what your degree is notionally supposed to earn that you start having real trouble. and the interest rates are so high that if you're underemployed after graduating you're probably never going to be able to pay them off. A good decision quickly turns into a bad one if you entered the job market during the financial crisis that you can never recover from. There is also a significant amount of young adults shouldn't be trusted as well. When I was doing entry level hiring the number of people got complained about getting penalties on their student loans because no one told them they had to start paying them was depressing. On December 01 2020 23:35 FlaShFTW wrote: I never said it was worthless. I said it is much easier to pay off a student loan if you go into STEM. Humanities majors typically require you to go into post-bach education in order to rise in the ranks, you don't get very far with just an undergrad diploma. https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-salaries-college-degrees/ Play around with it the Georgetown model and it'll be abundantly clear, there are far more 6-figure jobs or easier to get 6-figure jobs for STEM than humanities. Capitalism simply dictates what is a preferred skill, and with a rapidly developing technological world that is now looking at machine learning as the new hot topic, it's no wonder why computer science majors are so heavily sought after. Meanwhile all my poli sci friends including myself are either satisfied with a middling salary around 60k/year or trying to go for post-grad educations like JD/LLM/Masters programs. The problem with this is that you're tracing value to money. Do you think teachers in this country are paid fairly based on their value to society? Capitalism rarely values the public good correctly. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11802 Posts
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Yurie
12082 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gLeHaCb.png) | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 01 2020 23:51 LegalLord wrote: Rule of thumb that students are told is, “student loans not to exceed one year’s salary.” I’d say that’s about the upper bound of what is affordable for the notional 10 year payoff that student loans are means for. As at least one reference point, if you took a loan of $70k at 6 percent interest, that’d be just under $800 a month - marginally serviceable on a $70k salary in most US cities. It’s when you’re out of a job or unable to find one that earns what your degree is notionally supposed to earn that you start having real trouble. One of the many, many problems with the "you took out a loan, pay it back" argument is that this was not taught to huge swathes of the Millennial generation, particularly older Millennials. The concept of "you took out a loan, pay it back" is ethically dubious when these loans were largely hoisted on minors with no real concept of what it meant to took out loans in that manner by the very people that were responsible for teaching them how to be "financially responsible" with those loans. Baby Boomers/Gen X were responsible for 1) creating a system that creates meaningful access and is also just to consumers and 2) actually teaching the minors/brand-new adults that are committing themselves to this debt what that means and how to manage it. Those generations failed on both counts. Not only this, but that rule would also eliminate most advanced professional degrees, including lawyers, (non-surgeon) physicians (complicated by residency being so poorly complicated as well), pharmacists, dentists, and many other graduate-level careers. Anybody that knows US history well that can explain what happened around 1980-85? It broke the trend of the US life expectancy keeping up with many other western nations. While increasing spending. 1) AIDS crisis. 2) Reagan and the GOP's push towards economic deregulation and massive tax cuts. | ||
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Neneu
Norway492 Posts
On December 01 2020 23:51 LegalLord wrote: Rule of thumb that students are told is, “student loans not to exceed one year’s salary.” I’d say that’s about the upper bound of what is affordable for the notional 10 year payoff that student loans are means for. As at least one reference point, if you took a loan of $70k at 6 percent interest, that’d be just under $800 a month - marginally serviceable on a $70k salary in most US cities. It’s when you’re out of a job or unable to find one that earns what your degree is notionally supposed to earn that you start having real trouble. Holy shit, you guys pay 6 percent on your student loan?! That is insane! If anything, that should be at least at loan for house purchase level, considering what the risk in the student loan it is trying to approximate. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 02 2020 01:22 Neneu wrote: Holy shit, you guys pay 6 percent on your student loan?! That is insane! My student loans are capped at 6% interest, and that is only because I serve in the military. 6% is a good interest rate. Many students pay significantly more. | ||
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Neneu
Norway492 Posts
On December 02 2020 01:24 Stratos_speAr wrote: My student loans are capped at 6% interest, and that is only because I serve in the military. 6% is a good interest. Many students pay significantly more. That is crazy. What the risk of your student loan is trying to capture is the possibility of you being able to live an okey life, where you are able to apply the increased benefit of education. Currently I pay 1.37% on my student loan (not a US loan). 6% or more in the current economy, is just predatory behavior from the lenders. I am just blown away. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10367 Posts
On December 02 2020 00:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: The problem with this is that you're tracing value to money. Do you think teachers in this country are paid fairly based on their value to society? Capitalism rarely values the public good correctly. Ok but you're missing the point. I think teachers are definitely worth more than they are paid, I have goals of potentially becoming a teacher/professor myself one day if that potential opens up. The point I'm getting at is that in this modern world, some degrees are simply worth more even though you pay the same amount of tuition, and people should take the reality of the situation into account. At your average state school, you pay about 30k a year in tuition for a degree and whatever extra minors no matter what. So over 4 years, you pay 120k for comp sci, mech engineering, biochem, sociology, public health, ethnic studies, linguistics, art, music, etc. You pay the same amount of all of these. If you goal is to just get a well paying job, you go STEM. If you take a humanities major, you have to anticipate that your salary, at least in the modern market, will not be very highly valued aside from the selective lucky ones that manage to make a reputable name for themselves. It is HARD. It's probability and playing the odds. Should this be changed? Sure in an ideal world, we would pay firefighters and our school teachers far more (and if the police actually did their job properly, we could pay them well too). I'm just mentioning the current state of the job market and the value of a STEM degree. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 02 2020 01:30 Neneu wrote: That is crazy. What the risk of your student loan is trying to capture is the possibility of you being able to live an okey life, where you are able to apply the increased benefit of education. Currently I pay 1.37% on my student loan (not a US loan). 6% or more in the current economy, is just predatory behavior from the lenders. I am just blown away. This is the United States. Are you really that blown away? | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On December 02 2020 01:30 FlaShFTW wrote: Ok but you're missing the point. I think teachers are definitely worth more than they are paid, I have goals of potentially becoming a teacher/professor myself one day if that potential opens up. The point I'm getting at is that in this modern world, some degrees are simply worth more even though you pay the same amount of tuition, and people should take the reality of the situation into account. At your average state school, you pay about 30k a year in tuition for a degree and whatever extra minors no matter what. So over 4 years, you pay 120k for comp sci, mech engineering, biochem, sociology, public health, ethnic studies, linguistics, art, music, etc. You pay the same amount of all of these. If you goal is to just get a well paying job, you go STEM. If you take a humanities major, you have to anticipate that your salary, at least in the modern market, will not be very highly valued aside from the selective lucky ones that manage to make a reputable name for themselves. It is HARD. It's probability and playing the odds. Should this be changed? Sure in an ideal world, we would pay firefighters and our school teachers far more (and if the police actually did their job properly, we could pay them well too). I'm just mentioning the current state of the job market and the value of a STEM degree. I understand your point I just disagree with it. Most jobs aren't paying that much so you have a disconnect with reality in America. Everyone should become a STEM major and code is not reality and the sooner people stop believing it the better. | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
I'm paying nominally around 0.1% right now, as market interest rates are exceptionally low. Obviously there is the risk of interest rates rising when they're tied to the market rates, but looks unlikely that I'd ever end up paying 6% on my student loan. That is from the socialist utopia of Finland btw. | ||
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Neneu
Norway492 Posts
On December 02 2020 01:34 Stratos_speAr wrote: This is the United States. Are you really that blown away? Yes. Because this is batshit crazy, especially considering you are not allowed to claim student loans in personal bankruptcies, so the risk is even lower than other comparable loans. It is 100% predatory behavior on something that benefit the lenders. It is stupidity on a whole exclusive level of stupidity. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 02 2020 01:38 Oukka wrote: Where does the 6% even come from? What do you pay on a house or on a car if government guaranteed student loans are 6%? That is insane. I'm paying nominally around 0.1% right now, as market interest rates are exceptionally low. Obviously there is the risk of interest rates rising when they're tied to the market rates, but looks unlikely that I'd ever end up paying 6% on my student loan. That is from the socialist utopia of Finland btw. Average for a mortgage is 3%, average for a car is about 5.6%. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28785 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2759 Posts
It's actually a really good system (university is already free so it's only money for living). You pay back exactly the amount you borrowed to the government and their "profit" is a more educated population that is more competitive. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On December 02 2020 01:38 Neneu wrote: Yes. Because this is batshit crazy, especially considering you are not allowed to claim student loans in personal bankruptcies, so the risk is even lower than other comparable loans. It is 100% predatory behavior on something that benefit the lenders. It is stupidity on a whole exclusive level of stupidity. The strange thing is that the vast majority of student loans are owned by the US government, so the government is the one providing rates that are downright predatory for student loans. I'm surprised that the government doesn't do something even more nefarious like bundling said loans into asset-backed securities or something. | ||
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