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On October 05 2020 23:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:52 Gorsameth wrote:On October 05 2020 22:43 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:29 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it.
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive.
When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit? That seems a hyperbolic reading of what I’ve said in this thread. If I was to be similarly reductive I’d say your faith in democratic procedures and decorum have given the US populace the choice of Trump or Biden, so why is that a good plan and not naive? I'd say that says more about the US populace then about democratic procedures. In a horrible generalist way of saying it, the problem with America is that it is inhabited by Americans. A revolution won't change that. Why isn't America more left? Because the vast majority of people aren't that far left. Why is there so much racism and violence? Because a majority of people are, apparently, ok with it. This thread is way more left leaning then the average American, even if you ignore us Europeans. Americans are just people, you pump Americans into the American system and cultural norms and you get Americans.
Political system and cultural norms are two different things, precisely.
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On October 05 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location? Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there.
The concept of moving to so many countries is foreign to me. Do you have a lifelong citizenship somewhere?
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On October 05 2020 23:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location? Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there. The concept of moving to so many countries is foreign to me. Do you have a lifelong citizenship somewhere?
French but I guess I'll get a norwegian one as soon as I am allowed. My mother is Argentinian, and her family were themselves immigrants, so the emigration thing runs deep in my blood 
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On October 05 2020 23:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:52 Gorsameth wrote:On October 05 2020 22:43 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:29 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it.
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive.
When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit? That seems a hyperbolic reading of what I’ve said in this thread. If I was to be similarly reductive I’d say your faith in democratic procedures and decorum have given the US populace the choice of Trump or Biden, so why is that a good plan and not naive? I'd say that says more about the US populace then about democratic procedures. In a horrible generalist way of saying it, the problem with America is that it is inhabited by Americans. A revolution won't change that. Why isn't America more left? Because the vast majority of people aren't that far left. Why is there so much racism and violence? Because a majority of people are, apparently, ok with it. This thread is way more left leaning then the average American, even if you ignore us Europeans. Americans are just people, you pump Americans into the American system and cultural norms and you get Americans. Right, we are all shaped by our environment but I don't think you'd advocate for a minority left-leaning government to impose a dictatorship and send rednecks and hillbilly's to forced re-education camps where they get turned into lefties or be sterilised.
Moving a country left or right is generally a slow process of changing minds.
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United Kingdom10007 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated? Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one.
I just don't see where this cultural change is going to come from. You say education, but I can't see how that is helping. Look at the last 10 years, for example. I don't see a particularly useful progression, most people who are on 'the left' are blindly begging for things to return to exactly how they were 6-7 years ago when they were nice and comfortable about America's problems being largely unseen.
Racism isn't just going to disappear because of some vague notion of 'progress' which doesn't seem to vibe with the reality of America.
What it comes down to is that the status quo is as unjustifiable as the revolution you fear, but its easier to ignore the victims of the status quo.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On October 05 2020 23:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:01 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Gorsameth wrote:On October 05 2020 22:43 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:29 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it.
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive.
When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit? That seems a hyperbolic reading of what I’ve said in this thread. If I was to be similarly reductive I’d say your faith in democratic procedures and decorum have given the US populace the choice of Trump or Biden, so why is that a good plan and not naive? I'd say that says more about the US populace then about democratic procedures. In a horrible generalist way of saying it, the problem with America is that it is inhabited by Americans. A revolution won't change that. Why isn't America more left? Because the vast majority of people aren't that far left. Why is there so much racism and violence? Because a majority of people are, apparently, ok with it. This thread is way more left leaning then the average American, even if you ignore us Europeans. Americans are just people, you pump Americans into the American system and cultural norms and you get Americans. Political system and cultural norms are two different things, precisely.
Well no there’s a degree of interlinking and how they intersect.
America has plenty of left wing people, as well as real hard libertarians, both of whom have no effective political outlets. If the political system more accurately reflected that then cultural norms may themselves shift, the current system isn’t effective at reflecting the cultural norms and indeed its restrictions shapes them.
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On October 05 2020 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated? Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one. I just don't see where this cultural change is going to come from. You say education, but I can't see how that is helping. Look at the last 10 years, for example. I don't see a particularly useful progression, most people who are on 'the left' are blindly begging for things to return to exactly how they were 6-7 years ago when they were nice and comfortable about America's problems being largely unseen. Racism isn't just going to disappear because of some vague notion of 'progress' which doesn't seem to vibe with the reality of America. What it comes down to is that the status quo is as unjustifiable as the revolution you fear, but its easier to ignore the victims of the status quo.
People are wayyyy less racist than they were 40 years ago, and themselves were wayyyy less racist than their ancestors 40 years before that.
Of course people change, and cultural norms change. Why do you think conservatives are so over represented among older folks?
Look at the situation of LGBT people if you want another clear example. The progress made is insane. People are completely different towards transexuals than they were even 15 years ago.
I wish people in America didn't think it's normal and should be legal to use a gun purchased legally and transform someone into a steak tartare if they trespass on their property. NO ONE thinks that in Europe. But I am quite certain that it will be a weird idea to our grand children.
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On October 05 2020 23:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:01 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Gorsameth wrote:On October 05 2020 22:43 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:29 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it.
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive.
When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit? That seems a hyperbolic reading of what I’ve said in this thread. If I was to be similarly reductive I’d say your faith in democratic procedures and decorum have given the US populace the choice of Trump or Biden, so why is that a good plan and not naive? I'd say that says more about the US populace then about democratic procedures. In a horrible generalist way of saying it, the problem with America is that it is inhabited by Americans. A revolution won't change that. Why isn't America more left? Because the vast majority of people aren't that far left. Why is there so much racism and violence? Because a majority of people are, apparently, ok with it. This thread is way more left leaning then the average American, even if you ignore us Europeans. Americans are just people, you pump Americans into the American system and cultural norms and you get Americans. Political system and cultural norms are two different things, precisely. Well no there’s a degree of interlinking and how they intersect. America has plenty of left wing people, as well as real hard libertarians, both of whom have no effective political outlets. If the political system more accurately reflected that then cultural norms may themselves shift, the current system isn’t effective at reflecting the cultural norms and indeed its restrictions shapes them.
Sure. All I am saying is that it's not by changing a system that you change the way people think. If anything the way people think influence the system - the better the system the more it does, and as you point out the american system is not very good at that.
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On October 05 2020 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated? Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one. I just don't see where this cultural change is going to come from. You say education, but I can't see how that is helping. Look at the last 10 years, for example. I don't see a particularly useful progression, most people who are on 'the left' are blindly begging for things to return to exactly how they were 6-7 years ago when they were nice and comfortable about America's problems being largely unseen. Racism isn't just going to disappear because of some vague notion of 'progress' which doesn't seem to vibe with the reality of America. What it comes down to is that the status quo is as unjustifiable as the revolution you fear, but its easier to ignore the victims of the status quo.
Because we don't educate our citizens anymore. I would guess legislators resented having to go to school or something and decided that education was not a priority anymore. Whereas in the 50s the US was pretty unrivaled in terms of education, that has all fallen by the wayside, whether because of the aforementioned resentment or because those in power realized it was easier to manipulate an ignorant mass. Funding for education has stagnated or been cut across the board. Now we have proposals to teach more "America positive" material or whatever in schools. Public schools are being commandeered for propaganda.
Most people on "the left" definitely don't want a return to 10 years ago. We want a return to modernity.
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On October 05 2020 23:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc.
But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location? Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there. The concept of moving to so many countries is foreign to me. Do you have a lifelong citizenship somewhere? French but I guess I'll get a norwegian one as soon as I am allowed. My mother is Argentinian, and her family were themselves immigrants, so the emigration thing runs deep in my blood
So long as you don't live in France you have no obligation to their economy in exchange for your citizenship? Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside if you're a US citizen. So my taxes would still go toward such atrocities even if I lived in a country that was a social democracy where the exploitation is mostly outside the nation's boarder and more subtle/indirect than a place like the US.
But I don't want to attempt to maintain an intentionally exploitative system and make it just palatable enough to stave off revolutions in the metropolises. I want a vision of a society that is working to end, not maintain, the exploitative relationship between capital, natural resources and labor for a more holistic vision of the world that understands conscientização as our pursuit, not profit.
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On October 05 2020 23:20 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated? Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one. I just don't see where this cultural change is going to come from. You say education, but I can't see how that is helping. Look at the last 10 years, for example. I don't see a particularly useful progression, most people who are on 'the left' are blindly begging for things to return to exactly how they were 6-7 years ago when they were nice and comfortable about America's problems being largely unseen. Racism isn't just going to disappear because of some vague notion of 'progress' which doesn't seem to vibe with the reality of America. What it comes down to is that the status quo is as unjustifiable as the revolution you fear, but its easier to ignore the victims of the status quo. Because we don't educate our citizens anymore. I would guess legislators resented having to go to school or something and decided that education was not a priority anymore. Whereas in the 50s the US was pretty unrivaled in terms of education, that has all fallen by the wayside, whether because of the aforementioned resentment or because those in power realized it was easier to manipulate an ignorant mass. Funding for education has stagnated or been cut across the board. Now we have proposals to teach more "America positive" material or whatever in schools. Public schools are being commandeered for propaganda. Most people on "the left" definitely don't want a return to 10 years ago. We want a return to modernity.
I think that is wrong too. I am quite certain our children will be less biggoted, more tolerant and believe less in violence than we do.
Ignorance was also completely prevalent in the 50s, and people were WAY worse than they are now.
Finally the idea that the elites sabotage education because they can control the masses that way is just bad conspiracy. It simply doesn't work that way.
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On October 05 2020 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:[quote] Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location? Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there. The concept of moving to so many countries is foreign to me. Do you have a lifelong citizenship somewhere? French but I guess I'll get a norwegian one as soon as I am allowed. My mother is Argentinian, and her family were themselves immigrants, so the emigration thing runs deep in my blood So long as you don't live in France you have no obligation to their economy in exchange for your citizenship? Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside if you're a US citizen. So my taxes would still go toward such atrocities even if I lived in a country that was a social democracy where the exploitation is mostly outside the nation's boarder and more subtle/indirect than a place like the US. But I don't want to attempt to maintain an intentionally exploitative system and make it just palatable enough to stave off revolutions in the metropolises. I want a vision of a society that is working to end, not maintain, the exploitative relationship between capital, natural resources and labor for a more holistic vision of the world that understands conscientização as our pursuit, not profit.
Yeah the world is imperfect and that is why we do politics. To make it better. That's why I vote left and always have. That's why I care about the US elections because all you mentioned is going to get much worse if Trump is reelected and why I lament that right wing authoritarian are on the rise everywhere.
Look, I was once upon a time, a "revolutionary" leftist, and I too believed that all we needed was a good revolution by the right people and there was nothing to save from the system. Hell, I have two shelves of marxist and post marxist philosophy in my bookshelves. It's fine. I just grew out of it. Not because I stopped caring, but because I don't need to project my own problems like that anymore. Politics is about people and their lives, not about MY angst, MY revolt, MY anger, MY purity.
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United Kingdom10007 Posts
On October 05 2020 23:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:20 Arghmyliver wrote:On October 05 2020 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated? Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one. I just don't see where this cultural change is going to come from. You say education, but I can't see how that is helping. Look at the last 10 years, for example. I don't see a particularly useful progression, most people who are on 'the left' are blindly begging for things to return to exactly how they were 6-7 years ago when they were nice and comfortable about America's problems being largely unseen. Racism isn't just going to disappear because of some vague notion of 'progress' which doesn't seem to vibe with the reality of America. What it comes down to is that the status quo is as unjustifiable as the revolution you fear, but its easier to ignore the victims of the status quo. Because we don't educate our citizens anymore. I would guess legislators resented having to go to school or something and decided that education was not a priority anymore. Whereas in the 50s the US was pretty unrivaled in terms of education, that has all fallen by the wayside, whether because of the aforementioned resentment or because those in power realized it was easier to manipulate an ignorant mass. Funding for education has stagnated or been cut across the board. Now we have proposals to teach more "America positive" material or whatever in schools. Public schools are being commandeered for propaganda. Most people on "the left" definitely don't want a return to 10 years ago. We want a return to modernity. I think that is wrong too. I am quite certain our children will be less biggoted, more tolerant and believe less in violence than we do. Ignorance was also completely prevalent in the 50s, and people were WAY worse than they are now. Finally the idea that the elites sabotage education because they can control the masses that way is just bad conspiracy. It simply doesn't work that way.
Education in this framing is so vague though.
What education, exactly, and who is going to be educated in that way? Are poor people going to be taught about the downsides of capitalism? Because that just got made illegal in my country.
The world is going backwards, respect for education is at an all time low, so it seems very, very hopeful to assume that the cultural shift of the last 10 years is going to reverse itself any time soon. In the meantime the unjustifiable status quo continues, but no-one wants to address it because as I said, its easy to forget the victims when they aren't rich white people with power and influence.
I would qualify this by saying believe that violent revolution is equally as unjustifiable.
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On October 05 2020 23:35 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:20 Arghmyliver wrote:On October 05 2020 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated? Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one. I just don't see where this cultural change is going to come from. You say education, but I can't see how that is helping. Look at the last 10 years, for example. I don't see a particularly useful progression, most people who are on 'the left' are blindly begging for things to return to exactly how they were 6-7 years ago when they were nice and comfortable about America's problems being largely unseen. Racism isn't just going to disappear because of some vague notion of 'progress' which doesn't seem to vibe with the reality of America. What it comes down to is that the status quo is as unjustifiable as the revolution you fear, but its easier to ignore the victims of the status quo. Because we don't educate our citizens anymore. I would guess legislators resented having to go to school or something and decided that education was not a priority anymore. Whereas in the 50s the US was pretty unrivaled in terms of education, that has all fallen by the wayside, whether because of the aforementioned resentment or because those in power realized it was easier to manipulate an ignorant mass. Funding for education has stagnated or been cut across the board. Now we have proposals to teach more "America positive" material or whatever in schools. Public schools are being commandeered for propaganda. Most people on "the left" definitely don't want a return to 10 years ago. We want a return to modernity. I think that is wrong too. I am quite certain our children will be less biggoted, more tolerant and believe less in violence than we do. Ignorance was also completely prevalent in the 50s, and people were WAY worse than they are now. Finally the idea that the elites sabotage education because they can control the masses that way is just bad conspiracy. It simply doesn't work that way. Education in this framing is so vague though. What education, exactly, and who is going to be educated in that way? Are poor people going to be taught about the downsides of capitalism? Because that just got made illegal in my country. The world is going backwards, respect for education is at an all time low, so it seems very, very hopeful to assume that the cultural shift of the last 10 years is going to reverse itself any time soon. In the meantime the unjustifiable status quo continues, but no-one wants to address it because as I said, its easy to forget the victims when they aren't rich white people with power and influence.
Maybe we have indeed entered a period of cultural recession. Those things are cyclical. And maybe it's gonna get worse and worse and maybe the next generation will be worse than ours. But then, let me tell you that we better pray that no revolution comes, because if you are right it won't be a revolution of left wing, well intentioned people. It will be a revolution that reflects this regression.
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On October 05 2020 23:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:[quote] I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: [quote] www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location? Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there. The concept of moving to so many countries is foreign to me. Do you have a lifelong citizenship somewhere? French but I guess I'll get a norwegian one as soon as I am allowed. My mother is Argentinian, and her family were themselves immigrants, so the emigration thing runs deep in my blood So long as you don't live in France you have no obligation to their economy in exchange for your citizenship? Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside if you're a US citizen. So my taxes would still go toward such atrocities even if I lived in a country that was a social democracy where the exploitation is mostly outside the nation's boarder and more subtle/indirect than a place like the US. But I don't want to attempt to maintain an intentionally exploitative system and make it just palatable enough to stave off revolutions in the metropolises. I want a vision of a society that is working to end, not maintain, the exploitative relationship between capital, natural resources and labor for a more holistic vision of the world that understands conscientização as our pursuit, not profit. Yeah the world is imperfect and that is why we do politics. To make it better. That's why I vote left and always have. That's why I care about the US elections because all you mentioned is going to get much worse if Trump is reelected and why I lament that right wing authoritarian are on the rise everywhere. Look, I was once upon a time, a "revolutionary" leftist, and I too believed that all we needed was a good revolution by the right people and there was nothing to save from the system. Hell, I have two shelves of marxist and post marxist philosophy in my bookshelves. It's fine. I just grew out of it. Not because I stopped caring, but because I don't need to project my own problems like that anymore. Politics is about people and their lives, not about MY angst, MY revolt, MY anger, MY purity. I'm sure you didn't stop caring, you just found your price for your complicity and the system was able to pay it.
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On October 05 2020 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:[quote] Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location? Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there. The concept of moving to so many countries is foreign to me. Do you have a lifelong citizenship somewhere? French but I guess I'll get a norwegian one as soon as I am allowed. My mother is Argentinian, and her family were themselves immigrants, so the emigration thing runs deep in my blood So long as you don't live in France you have no obligation to their economy in exchange for your citizenship? Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside if you're a US citizen. So my taxes would still go toward such atrocities even if I lived in a country that was a social democracy where the exploitation is mostly outside the nation's boarder and more subtle/indirect than a place like the US.
As far as i know, it only works like that in the US. I don't think other countries try to tax your income in other countries. Most other countries tax income where it occurs. But i guess the US is also the only country capable of trying to enforce that. However, if you live in another country for long enough, you can usually become a citizen there.
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On October 05 2020 23:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location? Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there. The concept of moving to so many countries is foreign to me. Do you have a lifelong citizenship somewhere? French but I guess I'll get a norwegian one as soon as I am allowed. My mother is Argentinian, and her family were themselves immigrants, so the emigration thing runs deep in my blood So long as you don't live in France you have no obligation to their economy in exchange for your citizenship? Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside if you're a US citizen. So my taxes would still go toward such atrocities even if I lived in a country that was a social democracy where the exploitation is mostly outside the nation's boarder and more subtle/indirect than a place like the US. But I don't want to attempt to maintain an intentionally exploitative system and make it just palatable enough to stave off revolutions in the metropolises. I want a vision of a society that is working to end, not maintain, the exploitative relationship between capital, natural resources and labor for a more holistic vision of the world that understands conscientização as our pursuit, not profit. Yeah the world is imperfect and that is why we do politics. To make it better. That's why I vote left and always have. That's why I care about the US elections because all you mentioned is going to get much worse if Trump is reelected and why I lament that right wing authoritarian are on the rise everywhere. Look, I was once upon a time, a "revolutionary" leftist, and I too believed that all we needed was a good revolution by the right people and there was nothing to save from the system. Hell, I have two shelves of marxist and post marxist philosophy in my bookshelves. It's fine. I just grew out of it. Not because I stopped caring, but because I don't need to project my own problems like that anymore. Politics is about people and their lives, not about MY angst, MY revolt, MY anger, MY purity. I'm you sure you didn't stop caring, you just found your price for your complicity and the system was able to pay it.
Yeah or maybe I grew the fuck up.
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On October 05 2020 23:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:20 Arghmyliver wrote:On October 05 2020 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated? Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one. I just don't see where this cultural change is going to come from. You say education, but I can't see how that is helping. Look at the last 10 years, for example. I don't see a particularly useful progression, most people who are on 'the left' are blindly begging for things to return to exactly how they were 6-7 years ago when they were nice and comfortable about America's problems being largely unseen. Racism isn't just going to disappear because of some vague notion of 'progress' which doesn't seem to vibe with the reality of America. What it comes down to is that the status quo is as unjustifiable as the revolution you fear, but its easier to ignore the victims of the status quo. Because we don't educate our citizens anymore. I would guess legislators resented having to go to school or something and decided that education was not a priority anymore. Whereas in the 50s the US was pretty unrivaled in terms of education, that has all fallen by the wayside, whether because of the aforementioned resentment or because those in power realized it was easier to manipulate an ignorant mass. Funding for education has stagnated or been cut across the board. Now we have proposals to teach more "America positive" material or whatever in schools. Public schools are being commandeered for propaganda. Most people on "the left" definitely don't want a return to 10 years ago. We want a return to modernity. I think that is wrong too. I am quite certain our children will be less biggoted, more tolerant and believe less in violence than we do. Ignorance was also completely prevalent in the 50s, and people were WAY worse than they are now. Finally the idea that the elites sabotage education because they can control the masses that way is just bad conspiracy. It simply doesn't work that way.
It absolutely works that way. Propaganda has been a highly relevant and instrumental force throughout history. Denying the effect of propaganda and "selective" education is absurd. Holocaust denialism, Japanese denialism of WWII atrocities, American internment of Japanese citizens, representation of US/USSR proxy wars, anti-American/Western propaganda is the driving force behind the majority of terrorist organizations.
To say that people are generally more intelligent now than they were 70 years ago is stating the obvious. The quality of the education itself, the matter of education and it's impartiality, these things have diminished. The value that the population places on education has clearly diminished as well judging by our elected officials.
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On October 05 2020 23:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 23:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location? Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there. The concept of moving to so many countries is foreign to me. Do you have a lifelong citizenship somewhere? French but I guess I'll get a norwegian one as soon as I am allowed. My mother is Argentinian, and her family were themselves immigrants, so the emigration thing runs deep in my blood So long as you don't live in France you have no obligation to their economy in exchange for your citizenship? Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside if you're a US citizen. So my taxes would still go toward such atrocities even if I lived in a country that was a social democracy where the exploitation is mostly outside the nation's boarder and more subtle/indirect than a place like the US. But I don't want to attempt to maintain an intentionally exploitative system and make it just palatable enough to stave off revolutions in the metropolises. I want a vision of a society that is working to end, not maintain, the exploitative relationship between capital, natural resources and labor for a more holistic vision of the world that understands conscientização as our pursuit, not profit. Yeah the world is imperfect and that is why we do politics. To make it better. That's why I vote left and always have. That's why I care about the US elections because all you mentioned is going to get much worse if Trump is reelected and why I lament that right wing authoritarian are on the rise everywhere. Look, I was once upon a time, a "revolutionary" leftist, and I too believed that all we needed was a good revolution by the right people and there was nothing to save from the system. Hell, I have two shelves of marxist and post marxist philosophy in my bookshelves. It's fine. I just grew out of it. Not because I stopped caring, but because I don't need to project my own problems like that anymore. Politics is about people and their lives, not about MY angst, MY revolt, MY anger, MY purity. I'm you sure you didn't stop caring, you just found your price for your complicity and the system was able to pay it. Yeah or maybe I grew the fuck up.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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United Kingdom10007 Posts
On October 05 2020 23:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 23:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 23:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 23:20 Arghmyliver wrote:On October 05 2020 23:09 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated? Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one. I just don't see where this cultural change is going to come from. You say education, but I can't see how that is helping. Look at the last 10 years, for example. I don't see a particularly useful progression, most people who are on 'the left' are blindly begging for things to return to exactly how they were 6-7 years ago when they were nice and comfortable about America's problems being largely unseen. Racism isn't just going to disappear because of some vague notion of 'progress' which doesn't seem to vibe with the reality of America. What it comes down to is that the status quo is as unjustifiable as the revolution you fear, but its easier to ignore the victims of the status quo. Because we don't educate our citizens anymore. I would guess legislators resented having to go to school or something and decided that education was not a priority anymore. Whereas in the 50s the US was pretty unrivaled in terms of education, that has all fallen by the wayside, whether because of the aforementioned resentment or because those in power realized it was easier to manipulate an ignorant mass. Funding for education has stagnated or been cut across the board. Now we have proposals to teach more "America positive" material or whatever in schools. Public schools are being commandeered for propaganda. Most people on "the left" definitely don't want a return to 10 years ago. We want a return to modernity. I think that is wrong too. I am quite certain our children will be less biggoted, more tolerant and believe less in violence than we do. Ignorance was also completely prevalent in the 50s, and people were WAY worse than they are now. Finally the idea that the elites sabotage education because they can control the masses that way is just bad conspiracy. It simply doesn't work that way. Education in this framing is so vague though. What education, exactly, and who is going to be educated in that way? Are poor people going to be taught about the downsides of capitalism? Because that just got made illegal in my country. The world is going backwards, respect for education is at an all time low, so it seems very, very hopeful to assume that the cultural shift of the last 10 years is going to reverse itself any time soon. In the meantime the unjustifiable status quo continues, but no-one wants to address it because as I said, its easy to forget the victims when they aren't rich white people with power and influence. Maybe we have indeed entered a period of cultural recession. Those things are cyclical. And maybe it's gonna get worse and worse and maybe the next generation will be worse than ours. But then, let me tell you that we better pray that no revolution comes, because if you are right it won't be a revolution of left wing, well intentioned people. It will be a revolution that reflects this regression.
I don't doubt that any violent revolution would be co-opted by people with bad intentions. They can't have worse intentions than, say, Donald Trump, right?
What about Biden, what are his intentions? It seems, in the context of his political history, his intentions are to find that sweet spot of liberalism where you appease the right people at the right time in order to get into office. Other than that I would assume if he gets into office his intentions will be to preserve the system that got him there.
I think finding a leader with good intentions who has the ability to act on those intentions to make change is nigh on impossible, but even if one was found, that change is far too temporary in the long run, so injustice continues unchallenged.
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EPT
