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On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer.
It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc.
But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet.
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On October 05 2020 21:31 WombaT wrote:
One will run into serious problems the second you go to nationalise something that another powerful country has people with financial ties in, or your country has a large swathe or people who don’t buy in to the new paradigm.
Existing-power loyalists and external meddling have always played a pivotal role in all the revolutions that mattered over the past few centuries. Financial pressure is a given; they usually also send mercenaries to fight on behalf of the entrenched interests. Biggest difference is we now have nuclear weapons, which could potentially lead to an interesting dynamic. The fundamental risks behind choppy-chop are the same as they were back in 1789, though.
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I think it's safe to say that the average minority life is better now than it was 50years ago. However the average american income didnt increase much since Reagan. If the tax evasion loopholes were closed, and that america would effectively tax the ultra riches and the likes of amazon, the second part would improve. And if you elect someone else than the white supremacist candidate, the first part would also improve.
The point is, yes doing things right will take time. But you won't have to kill or lose anyone in a violent revolution that will end up fucking you over.
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On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet.
Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well.
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The point is, yes doing things right will take time. But you won't have to kill or lose anyone in a violent revolution that will end up fucking you over.
"time" there serves as a euphemism for countless deaths and violent conflicts around the world.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:29 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it.
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive.
When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit?
That seems a hyperbolic reading of what I’ve said in this thread.
If I was to be similarly reductive I’d say your faith in democratic procedures and decorum have given the US populace the choice of Trump or Biden, so why is that a good plan and not naive?
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I dunno about a one-party state but I do know our political machine is broken and we are basically functioning without a government at this point. What we have is a nice corporation instead of a government with absolutely no motive to govern whatsoever and infinite reason to stall the process and keep themselves on the payroll.
The reason people are frustrated is that we keep being told "ok, just fix it with your vote" but then we vote for Hilary, 45 gets put in the White House. "It will take time" but we have an administration literally moving backwards while climate change gives no fucks who "believes" in it or not. I don't really care to scream truths over the din of idiocy rising from the masses. I don't want to claw back inches of ground lost to denial of reality. I'm leaving the country as soon as I can, but hopefully they figure it out.
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Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another.
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On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well.
I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch:
Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations.
www.hrw.org
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On October 05 2020 22:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:29 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it.
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive.
When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit? That seems a hyperbolic reading of what I’ve said in this thread. If I was to be similarly reductive I’d say your faith in democratic procedures and decorum have given the US populace the choice of Trump or Biden, so why is that a good plan and not naive?
Well, I don't know, I think the whole discussion is hyperbolic, isn't it? We are talking Revolution, that in itself is hyperbolic.
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United Kingdom10011 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another.
So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated?
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On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Show nested quote +Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org
Yeah I live in Norway.
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On October 05 2020 22:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:29 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it.
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive.
When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit? That seems a hyperbolic reading of what I’ve said in this thread. If I was to be similarly reductive I’d say your faith in democratic procedures and decorum have given the US populace the choice of Trump or Biden, so why is that a good plan and not naive? I'd say that says more about the US populace then about democratic procedures.
In a horrible generalist way of saying it, the problem with America is that it is inhabited by Americans. A revolution won't change that.
Why isn't America more left? Because the vast majority of people aren't that far left. Why is there so much racism and violence? Because a majority of people are, apparently, ok with it.
This thread is way more left leaning then the average American, even if you ignore us Europeans.
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On October 05 2020 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well my main point is that the problem with Murica is cultural. Mentalities need to change. On racism, on violence, on nationalism.
You don't change mentalities by doing a revolution. You change a system with a revolution.
Mentalities change with education, and a lot of convincing over time. Not by replacing a liberal democracy by a dictatorship based on an ideology that has produced one monstrous system after another. So you think systemic change in the US is pointless until people change their minds, or that it will emerge naturally if people are better educated?
Both. It goes hand to hand. Systemic change is certainly needed, but you need the people to desire it. I just don't believe it will be made through a Revolution and CERTAINLY not a marxist leninist one.
Those kind of changes take A LOT of time. Generations. But we get there.
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On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway.
For how long?
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On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long?
Five years. Lived in Sweden before though.
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On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though.
Why "France" as the location?
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On October 05 2020 22:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:58 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:57 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. It's not just about a selfish drive for my own pseudo-liberation at the expense of others (like bougie Black people in the US) Biff. But I've been brutalized by police, harassed, my rights violated, disenfranchised, discriminated against in hiring, etc. But again, it isn't just about me (unlike what seems to drive your seemingly endlessly selfish perspective). It's about all the horrific atrocities it takes to maintain the privileges I do enjoy under the existing systems. I don't just forget that my tax dollars are used to murder school children in Yemen, brutalize my comrades on the streets across the US for the last months, or redistribute unimaginable amounts of wealth upward amid a depression, etc. when I enjoy the 'luxury' of hanging out on the internet. Well, you would be surprised, but I live in a bourgeois democracy that doesn't use my tax money to kill kids in Yemen + Show Spoiler +and where the police doesn't massacre black people.
America has a problem with racism because too many of its people are racist. And a problem with violence because its culture is rooted in violence. It has nothing to do with bourgeois democracy and will not be solved by your leninist bs.
As for my egoism. Here is how I see it. You don't give two shits about the million people who will lose their healthcare if Trump beats Biden, or the women who won't be able to abort safely, because your sublime revolté posing and your ideological purity is more important. Isn't it more fun to be able to tell people how racist or how compromised they are when you just ignore actual people and make grand talk about the Freirian Marxist Leninist Revolution to come?
So, see, who is egoistic here is a matter of perspective. I know you see it differently. You see me as not caring about others and yourself as seeing the world as it really is. That's fine. I don't agree. Since we can both do it, let's just keep the ad hominem on a dull road, shall we? Don't call me selfish, and I will avoid doing so as well. I don't know the finer details of how industry and government intersect in France, but last I heard your bourgeois democracy was definitely helping provide the weapons for those war crimes. Per Human Rights Watch: Not only is it contrary to France’s international obligations to persist in selling arms to these countries despite the clear risk they may be used to commit serious violations and war crimes, the sales give an effective green light to abusers. They undermine France’s credibility in its role promoting international law and universal human rights values at a time when they face serious attacks around the world.
The French government frequently evokes its support in the fight against terrorism in the Middle East and the necessary strategic autonomy of the French arms industry to justify its arms sales to these countries. But these arguments are not tenable – neither justifies France becoming complicit in atrocities against civilian populations. www.hrw.org Yeah I live in Norway. For how long? Five years. Lived in Sweden before though. Why "France" as the location?
Caused I lived in France when I registered on TL. Actually that's not even true, I lived in the UK, but my parents live in France and that was more my country than Britain. Never liked it there.
I have a passport too for what it's worth.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2020 22:43 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:29 WombaT wrote:On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it.
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive.
When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit? That seems a hyperbolic reading of what I’ve said in this thread. If I was to be similarly reductive I’d say your faith in democratic procedures and decorum have given the US populace the choice of Trump or Biden, so why is that a good plan and not naive? I'd say that says more about the US populace then about democratic procedures. In a horrible generalist way of saying it, the problem with America is that it is inhabited by Americans. A revolution won't change that. Why isn't America more left? Because the vast majority of people aren't that far left. Why is there so much racism and violence? Because a majority of people are, apparently, ok with it. This thread is way more left leaning then the average American, even if you ignore us Europeans.
Americans are just people, you pump Americans into the American system and cultural norms and you get Americans.
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