EPTThe only thing that comes to my mind when I hear people say that the situation couldn't be worse in the West and that we need a hardcore revolution is "grow the f... up".
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
The only thing that comes to my mind when I hear people say that the situation couldn't be worse in the West and that we need a hardcore revolution is "grow the f... up". | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
On October 05 2020 21:43 Biff The Understudy wrote: Out of interest, GH, what atrocities are happening to you, and, again, what do you mean by "your liberation"? If it's not too much to ask. A bit of context will help me to see where you are coming from. I'm a Black person in the US. As I've mentioned, there's no coherent argument that Black people in the US are more free than the founders of the US that held those Black people's ancestors in bondage and declared war against a tyrannical government because people like Thomas Jefferson thought they (he and his wealthy, white, landholding, slave owning peers) were too oppressed. EDIT: So if you think the US Revolutionary war was just a temper tantrum by spoiled brats I get why you think people who recognize we need a revolution need to "grow the f up". | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
On October 05 2020 21:50 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm a Black person in the US. As I've mentioned, there's no coherent argument that Black people in the US are more free than the founders of the US that held those Black people's ancestors in bondage and declared war against a tyrannical king because people like Thomas Jefferson thought they (he and his wealthy, white, landholding, slave owning peers) were too oppressed. It seems to me that a shitload of black people are doing well and are happy in western "bourgeois" democracies. I fail to see your point. And unless you are black AND very poor, it seems to me that being black in the US is not what I would call "living atrocities" that can only be solved by a bloody marxist-leninist revolution. Don't understand what Jefferson has to do with any of that, the guy dies over two centuries ago. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
On October 05 2020 21:56 Biff The Understudy wrote: It seems to me that a shitload of black people are doing well and are happy in western "bourgeois" democracies. I fail to see your point. And unless you are black AND very poor, it seems to me that being black in the US is not what I would call "living atrocities" that can only be solved by a bloody marxist-leninist revolution. I seriously hope someone besides me recognizes how extremely problematic this is and how it serves as a perfect example of: It's truly remarkable the horrific atrocities people can tolerate so long as they happen to people that aren't them, and how they can convince themselves they are the humanitarians while bombing, starving, and terrorizing people around the world. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive. When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:01 GreenHorizons wrote: I seriously hope someone besides me recognizes how extremely problematic this is and how it serves as a perfect example of: Explain to me what the atrocities you live as a non terribly poor black man in the US consist of. I know black people from the US and none of them seemed to believe that they needed a revolution to liberate them. So I am curious. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9069 Posts
On October 05 2020 21:56 Biff The Understudy wrote: It seems to me that a shitload of black people are doing well and are happy in western "bourgeois" democracies. I fail to see your point. And unless you are black AND very poor, it seems to me that being black in the US is not what I would call "living atrocities" that can only be solved by a bloody marxist-leninist revolution. Don't understand what Jefferson has to do with any of that, the guy dies over two centuries ago. it would seem to me that some people like to globalize their suffering because they aren't being "oppressed" enough where they reside. People don't complain about their lot in life as much as "but look at what capitalism is doing to this other group ins xx country. Horrific. America needs to change." Remember Kony? That's what people who are bored with their life are. There's no denying a lot of America needs to be fixed. I'm sure 100% of everyone here can find some aspect they would like to fix. But those people aren't going to leave the US and go live somewhere else any time soon. They're also not willing to give up their luxuries. On October 05 2020 22:10 Biff The Understudy wrote: Explain to me what the atrocities you live as a non terribly poor black man in the US consist of. I know black people from the US and none of them seemed to believe that they needed a revolution to liberate them. So I am curious. We don't need a revolution to liberate us from anything in the US. We need moderate white people to stand up and make the changes they know they have the power to make, but not the drive/will/care to make them. Most black people here are just sick and tired of the platitudes and empty words of "we care" while not doing a damn thing to fix the issues that are brought up. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:07 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah. Strangely nobody in Norway wants a leninist dictatorship, with the end of all economic and political freedom that comes with it. As for the argument "we want a real marxist revolution, the ones that happened in Russia, China, Cuba, Poland, Germany, Yugoslavia, Ukrain, Mongolia, Viet-Nam, North Korea, Angola, Romania, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Albania, Belarus, Czekoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary just didn't get it right" is, well, a bit naive. When something has been tried two dozen times and everytime it's been a fucking nightmare, there is a good case to move on. It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Arghmyliver
United States1081 Posts
On October 05 2020 21:56 Biff The Understudy wrote: It seems to me that a shitload of black people are doing well and are happy in western "bourgeois" democracies. I fail to see your point. And unless you are black AND very poor, it seems to me that being black in the US is not what I would call "living atrocities" that can only be solved by a bloody marxist-leninist revolution. Don't understand what Jefferson has to do with any of that, the guy dies over two centuries ago. So, I don't know exactly how in depth I need to go here, but; When two people love each other very much (or happen to drunkenly bump uglies) occasionally this results in the propagation of a child. Generally, in human culture, we care for our offspring, raising them to a certain age and then sending them out into the wide world to seek their fortune. As much as we would like to say that we are a communal species that works together to raise children, in general we are a selfish species and disproportionate care is spent on our own offspring in comparison to others. It's not necessarily bad, just how it is. Anyways, as you can see, someone who is disadvantaged in comparison to someone else (like for example if they are enslaved by them) will have less resources with which to raise their offspring, which could result in a less robust education, improper nourishment, lack of access to resources, etc, etc. In this way, the disadvantages of one individual can be seen to affect future generations of their offspring. Also, just because someone else's pool is full of toxic waste doesn't mean you aren't justified in complaining when people piss in yours (and the water may need to be changed in both cases). | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:12 GreenHorizons wrote: It's not the nightmare you seem to have a problem with, it's who is afflicted by it and how bad they have to be afflicted for you to think they are justified to resist with violence. That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24385 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:18 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm not an impoverished racist white guy during the invention of whiteness, I'm not falling for "well you got it better than them, you want to keep it that way, right pal...I said RIGHT?!?". Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:15 Arghmyliver wrote: So, I don't know exactly how in depth I need to go here, but; When two people love each other very much (or happen to drunkenly bump uglies) occasionally this results in the propagation of a child. Generally, in human culture, we care for our offspring, raising them to a certain age and then sending them out into the wide world to seek their fortune. As much as we would like to say that we are a communal species that works together to raise children, in general we are a selfish species and disproportionate care is spent on our own offspring in comparison to others. It's not necessarily bad, just how it is. Anyways, as you can see, someone who is disadvantaged in comparison to someone else (like for example if they are enslaved by them) will have less resources with which to raise their offspring, which could result in a less robust education, improper nourishment, lack of access to resources, etc, etc. In this way, the disadvantages of one individual can be seen to affect future generations of their offspring. Also, just because someone else's pool is full of toxic waste doesn't mean you aren't justified in complaining when people piss in yours (and the water may need to be changed in both cases). Yeah. I am not denying that the US has a huge problem with racism. I am just wondering what exactly requires a marxist leninist dictatorship to be fixed because bourgeois democracy is inadequate. The problem with racism in the US is that many, many people are racist, and that it is a hugely inequal country that led down its poor people in a disgraceful way. I think both problems are highly cultural. But I see in other democracy that racism is recessing, and I think a lot of black folks over here would not identify with the revolutionary liberation GH advocate. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22658 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:19 Biff The Understudy wrote: Its GH, not giving an answer is basically all he does when confronted.Looks like I am still not gonna get my answer. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:25 Gorsameth wrote: Its GH, not giving an answer is basically all he does when confronted. I mean, it's just, if we are talking about blowing up the whole society I live in, I want to know a bit more what the exact motives are. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On October 05 2020 22:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: That's not really an answer. What I want to know is what you are suffering from that is not fixable through democratic means. I know America is a fucked up country in s many ways, but I see black people living good lives, having their rights well respected and not needing "liberation" all around Europe. Not saying progress can't be made. Lots of stuff are absolutely unacceptable and there are still lots of injustices. Progress must be made, and is largely being made. So again, tell me what is your liberation that requires a revolution to happen because it can't happen with bourgeois democracy. When the democratic will isn’t to fix it? | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8198 Posts
So to be clear, you are gonna fix racism in America by turning it into a marxist dictatorship so that even if the majority of people is racist they can't do racist shit? | ||
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