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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On September 24 2020 10:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 10:05 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 09:12 iamthedave wrote:On September 24 2020 08:34 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 07:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 07:08 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 06:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 05:51 Danglars wrote:
As details emerge, the Breonna Taylor case came down to:
Strength of testimony indicating that it was not a "no-knock" warrant. Officers announced their presence loudly.
The boyfriend inside the apartment fired first at police (at the door in his testimony). The first shot fired in the police raid was by an occupant of the apartment shooting a police officer in the leg.
(Also, judges rule on qualified immunity, so don't act like the grand jury failed to indict on that basis) The boyfriend called 911 immediately after and said “I don’t know what’s happening,” Walker said in the call. “Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend.” Maybe they whispered it ? Doesn't look like he heard their identification. Hard without bodycams. Strength of testimony is ONE witness corroborating. Do you really still trust police reports ? Take them with a grain of salt. Listen to it here to see if it sounds untruthful : https://soundcloud.com/wfplnews/911-call-in-shooting-death-of-breonna-taylor-released I'll wait to hear more discussion of corroborating witness testimony. The news articles I've read aren't clear on the number of (ear)witnesses saying the police clearly identified themselves, versus the ones that said they didn't hear that part and just the breaking/entering. The guy that had just shot someone saying he didn't know on the 911 call after the fact is not dispositive, just as you bring up with officer testimony that they waited 45 seconds to a minute after announcement to enter. It's the officer's words against his words, some witnesses against other witnesses ... and people were expecting the officers to be charged on that kind of evidence? The cnn link in my previous post explains both testimonies and who the witness is. I think both versions can be true simultaneously, depending on the type of door and where the bedroom was located relative to the door. I personally don't hear voices through my entrance door though I can hear some noises... No, they are expecting charges against officers who manage to hit 5 times an unarmed woman lying on the floor, and miss the guy who shot at them. At least a wanton killing of taylor or something. I mean, the investigation couldn't even decide whose bullets were 4 out of the 5 that hit her. They could only identify the killing blow. It's a tough case but it seems the warrant itself is not really 100% based on accurate elements. The CNN link is a narrative style that makes no claims as to all witnesses called in grand jury. I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on. That's why I said I'll wait to hear more on that count. In the case that both are true, then it is neither officers nor boyfriend who are guilty of any crime (setting aside single officer wantonly firing bullets everywhere). The boyfriend shot the cops, the cops returned fire, and no grand jury is going to find the officers guilty for any crimes there. You sound like inaccuracy in a gunfight is a chargeable crime. Maybe they'll release a 3d apartment model and every shot tracing so you can pull it apart like the JFK assassination. This should lead to reforms in the way the Louisville police serve search warrants, and it already has stopped the no-knock warrants. Police officers don't have to go to jail out of anger just to get things done. Nonetheless, manslaughter is manslaughter. A woman died, and nobody's been held accountable. That's the root problem. No way should this be a murder charge, but it's ridiculous that everyone walks away. And it points to the problem of the second amendment again; it did nothing to protect the citizen, and in fact got his girlfriend killed (assuming he's telling the truth of course). Frankly it's amazing he survived. Looking at the reports of the amount of shots poured into the apartment I picture the scene in Pulp Fiction where a perfect body outline of Samuel L Jackson gets shot in the wall. It didn’t look like even manslaughter would be appropriate, pending additional details. Just because a woman died doesn’t mean someone should be punished for it. The man inside could’ve accidentally shot and killed an officer, and it shouldn’t be automatic that somebody must be held responsible for him either. According to my ethics, people with authority to kill should be held to extremely high standards and also extremely accountable. To me, a mistake of this nature is simply not acceptable and needs to be severely punished. Where do we disagree?
Police will find themselves in dangerous situations everyday. When fired upon, they should return fire to eliminate the threat. The police department is responsible for providing ongoing training to its officers and the department & mayors office should hold them accountable in firing officers that don’t uphold high standards. In this case, it is nowhere clear that officers acted out of line in a gunfight somebody else started. You’re armchair quarterbacking a tense situation, and demanding too much blood for blood instead of looking to improve the system. Your high standards would be appropriately applied if officers had come in and started firing without having been fired upon. You’re just diminishing threat and the ongoing risk of dead officers (if you need to see videos of suspects drawing guns to shoot two cops dead, let me know. Count the seconds from situation in hand to cops writhing on the ground.) This ain’t the clear cut situation of mistakes and neglecting high standards that you think it is.
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So basically the whole argument is that she deserved it and that because cops are always in danger, their lives are worth more than the lives of the citizens of America.
I don’t give a shit if cops are shot and there is a snuff film. If you’re terrified about the job and need to draw weapons at the mere sight of someone moving or can’t handle situations correctly, get a different job. No one is forcing you to be a cop, go work a trade.
Its pretty telling that the American military are held to higher standards than these scrubs designed to serve the public. Your ass is grass if you discharge a weapon in the military for no good reason while no one in the department cares if you unload your weapon.
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On September 24 2020 10:57 StalkerTL wrote:
So basically the whole argument is that she deserved it and that because cops are always in danger, their lives are worth more than the lives of the citizens of America.
I don’t give a shit if cops are shot and there is a snuff film. If you’re terrified about the job and need to draw weapons at the mere sight of someone moving or can’t handle situations correctly, get a different job. No one is forcing you to be a cop, go work a trade.
Its pretty telling that the American military are held to higher standards than these scrubs designed to serve the public. Your ass is grass if you discharge a weapon in the military for no good reason while no one in the department cares if you unload your weapon.
I like how the first paragraph alleges I think she deserved it, and the second paragraph says you don’t give a shit if cops are shot.
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On September 24 2020 11:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 10:57 StalkerTL wrote:
So basically the whole argument is that she deserved it and that because cops are always in danger, their lives are worth more than the lives of the citizens of America.
I don’t give a shit if cops are shot and there is a snuff film. If you’re terrified about the job and need to draw weapons at the mere sight of someone moving or can’t handle situations correctly, get a different job. No one is forcing you to be a cop, go work a trade.
Its pretty telling that the American military are held to higher standards than these scrubs designed to serve the public. Your ass is grass if you discharge a weapon in the military for no good reason while no one in the department cares if you unload your weapon. I like how the first paragraph alleges I think she deserved it, and the second paragraph says you don’t give a shit if cops are shot.
The difference is police officers choose to be police officers. Black people get shot for being black, a choice they emphatically did not make. Police are, in theory, paid to do a job. A job held to certain standards. And if, to you, that standard involves freely shooting anyone who looks like they might have been reaching into a bag or pocket, or for having a funny look on their face as their home is being invaded, and that's why you don't have a problem with killings like this, then I think we all have a sufficient understanding of each other.
Also, Trump is just casually suggesting everything will be cool if we let him continue to play dictator if he loses, and to toss out the ballots, suggesting there will just be a "continuation" rather than peaceful transfer of power. He doesn't understand that terms limits are hard-coded all over the place, and that if he doesn't win the election in a verifiable manner, his ass is out. Done. There is no space to entertain this nonsense.
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On September 24 2020 10:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 10:26 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:05 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 09:12 iamthedave wrote:On September 24 2020 08:34 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 07:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 07:08 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 06:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 05:51 Danglars wrote:
As details emerge, the Breonna Taylor case came down to:
Strength of testimony indicating that it was not a "no-knock" warrant. Officers announced their presence loudly.
The boyfriend inside the apartment fired first at police (at the door in his testimony). The first shot fired in the police raid was by an occupant of the apartment shooting a police officer in the leg.
(Also, judges rule on qualified immunity, so don't act like the grand jury failed to indict on that basis) The boyfriend called 911 immediately after and said “I don’t know what’s happening,” Walker said in the call. “Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend.” Maybe they whispered it ? Doesn't look like he heard their identification. Hard without bodycams. Strength of testimony is ONE witness corroborating. Do you really still trust police reports ? Take them with a grain of salt. Listen to it here to see if it sounds untruthful : https://soundcloud.com/wfplnews/911-call-in-shooting-death-of-breonna-taylor-released I'll wait to hear more discussion of corroborating witness testimony. The news articles I've read aren't clear on the number of (ear)witnesses saying the police clearly identified themselves, versus the ones that said they didn't hear that part and just the breaking/entering. The guy that had just shot someone saying he didn't know on the 911 call after the fact is not dispositive, just as you bring up with officer testimony that they waited 45 seconds to a minute after announcement to enter. It's the officer's words against his words, some witnesses against other witnesses ... and people were expecting the officers to be charged on that kind of evidence? The cnn link in my previous post explains both testimonies and who the witness is. I think both versions can be true simultaneously, depending on the type of door and where the bedroom was located relative to the door. I personally don't hear voices through my entrance door though I can hear some noises... No, they are expecting charges against officers who manage to hit 5 times an unarmed woman lying on the floor, and miss the guy who shot at them. At least a wanton killing of taylor or something. I mean, the investigation couldn't even decide whose bullets were 4 out of the 5 that hit her. They could only identify the killing blow. It's a tough case but it seems the warrant itself is not really 100% based on accurate elements. The CNN link is a narrative style that makes no claims as to all witnesses called in grand jury. I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on. That's why I said I'll wait to hear more on that count. In the case that both are true, then it is neither officers nor boyfriend who are guilty of any crime (setting aside single officer wantonly firing bullets everywhere). The boyfriend shot the cops, the cops returned fire, and no grand jury is going to find the officers guilty for any crimes there. You sound like inaccuracy in a gunfight is a chargeable crime. Maybe they'll release a 3d apartment model and every shot tracing so you can pull it apart like the JFK assassination. This should lead to reforms in the way the Louisville police serve search warrants, and it already has stopped the no-knock warrants. Police officers don't have to go to jail out of anger just to get things done. Nonetheless, manslaughter is manslaughter. A woman died, and nobody's been held accountable. That's the root problem. No way should this be a murder charge, but it's ridiculous that everyone walks away. And it points to the problem of the second amendment again; it did nothing to protect the citizen, and in fact got his girlfriend killed (assuming he's telling the truth of course). Frankly it's amazing he survived. Looking at the reports of the amount of shots poured into the apartment I picture the scene in Pulp Fiction where a perfect body outline of Samuel L Jackson gets shot in the wall. It didn’t look like even manslaughter would be appropriate, pending additional details. Just because a woman died doesn’t mean someone should be punished for it. The man inside could’ve accidentally shot and killed an officer, and it shouldn’t be automatic that somebody must be held responsible for him either. According to my ethics, people with authority to kill should be held to extremely high standards and also extremely accountable. To me, a mistake of this nature is simply not acceptable and needs to be severely punished. Where do we disagree? You’re armchair quarterbacking a tense situation, and demanding too much blood for blood instead of looking to improve the system.
From my perspective, officers being accountable improves the system. I often hear that when someone breaks into someone else's house, it is entirely fair for that person to shoot to kill, because they don't know how dangerous the people are. I can agree with that in some situations and this is certainly among them. Do you think it is fair for someone to shoot to kill when someone breaks into their home? I think it is reasonable for the officers to be shot, since they broke into someone's house. If you believe people don't have the right to shoot intruders, I understand your perspective. But I feel like we have discussed this kind of thing before and you've agreed people have the right to defend their homes.
I would say that if we accept the idea that someone breaking into your house allows for ethical use of violence, it was ethical for the officers to be shot. Do we disagree on that?
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On September 24 2020 11:10 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 10:57 StalkerTL wrote:
So basically the whole argument is that she deserved it and that because cops are always in danger, their lives are worth more than the lives of the citizens of America.
I don’t give a shit if cops are shot and there is a snuff film. If you’re terrified about the job and need to draw weapons at the mere sight of someone moving or can’t handle situations correctly, get a different job. No one is forcing you to be a cop, go work a trade.
Its pretty telling that the American military are held to higher standards than these scrubs designed to serve the public. Your ass is grass if you discharge a weapon in the military for no good reason while no one in the department cares if you unload your weapon. I like how the first paragraph alleges I think she deserved it, and the second paragraph says you don’t give a shit if cops are shot.
1) From your tone and reasoning, you think the actions of the police were entirely appropriate and there should be no punishment for her death. Obviously I’m going to assume that you think she deserved it. Her death has to be the fault of someone, someone precipitated the situation. Most people see the police - who created the situation by being shit at their job - as causing the situation, I don’t know what your stance actually is with the amount of handwringing and appeals to the rule of law.
2) I legitimately do not give a shit if cops are shot on film as your justification that they deserve to be valued more than American citizens. You seem to believe this to be the case with your handwringing over why they should be allowed leniency on the use of lethal force on innocent people.
Don’t bring up rule of law bullshit either, you clearly don’t give a shit about rule of law, only that it supports your beliefs.
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On September 24 2020 10:48 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 10:26 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:05 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 09:12 iamthedave wrote:On September 24 2020 08:34 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 07:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 07:08 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 06:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 05:51 Danglars wrote:
As details emerge, the Breonna Taylor case came down to:
Strength of testimony indicating that it was not a "no-knock" warrant. Officers announced their presence loudly.
The boyfriend inside the apartment fired first at police (at the door in his testimony). The first shot fired in the police raid was by an occupant of the apartment shooting a police officer in the leg.
(Also, judges rule on qualified immunity, so don't act like the grand jury failed to indict on that basis) The boyfriend called 911 immediately after and said “I don’t know what’s happening,” Walker said in the call. “Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend.” Maybe they whispered it ? Doesn't look like he heard their identification. Hard without bodycams. Strength of testimony is ONE witness corroborating. Do you really still trust police reports ? Take them with a grain of salt. Listen to it here to see if it sounds untruthful : https://soundcloud.com/wfplnews/911-call-in-shooting-death-of-breonna-taylor-released I'll wait to hear more discussion of corroborating witness testimony. The news articles I've read aren't clear on the number of (ear)witnesses saying the police clearly identified themselves, versus the ones that said they didn't hear that part and just the breaking/entering. The guy that had just shot someone saying he didn't know on the 911 call after the fact is not dispositive, just as you bring up with officer testimony that they waited 45 seconds to a minute after announcement to enter. It's the officer's words against his words, some witnesses against other witnesses ... and people were expecting the officers to be charged on that kind of evidence? The cnn link in my previous post explains both testimonies and who the witness is. I think both versions can be true simultaneously, depending on the type of door and where the bedroom was located relative to the door. I personally don't hear voices through my entrance door though I can hear some noises... No, they are expecting charges against officers who manage to hit 5 times an unarmed woman lying on the floor, and miss the guy who shot at them. At least a wanton killing of taylor or something. I mean, the investigation couldn't even decide whose bullets were 4 out of the 5 that hit her. They could only identify the killing blow. It's a tough case but it seems the warrant itself is not really 100% based on accurate elements. The CNN link is a narrative style that makes no claims as to all witnesses called in grand jury. I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on. That's why I said I'll wait to hear more on that count. In the case that both are true, then it is neither officers nor boyfriend who are guilty of any crime (setting aside single officer wantonly firing bullets everywhere). The boyfriend shot the cops, the cops returned fire, and no grand jury is going to find the officers guilty for any crimes there. You sound like inaccuracy in a gunfight is a chargeable crime. Maybe they'll release a 3d apartment model and every shot tracing so you can pull it apart like the JFK assassination. This should lead to reforms in the way the Louisville police serve search warrants, and it already has stopped the no-knock warrants. Police officers don't have to go to jail out of anger just to get things done. Nonetheless, manslaughter is manslaughter. A woman died, and nobody's been held accountable. That's the root problem. No way should this be a murder charge, but it's ridiculous that everyone walks away. And it points to the problem of the second amendment again; it did nothing to protect the citizen, and in fact got his girlfriend killed (assuming he's telling the truth of course). Frankly it's amazing he survived. Looking at the reports of the amount of shots poured into the apartment I picture the scene in Pulp Fiction where a perfect body outline of Samuel L Jackson gets shot in the wall. It didn’t look like even manslaughter would be appropriate, pending additional details. Just because a woman died doesn’t mean someone should be punished for it. The man inside could’ve accidentally shot and killed an officer, and it shouldn’t be automatic that somebody must be held responsible for him either. According to my ethics, people with authority to kill should be held to extremely high standards and also extremely accountable. To me, a mistake of this nature is simply not acceptable and needs to be severely punished. Where do we disagree? Police will find themselves in dangerous situations everyday. When fired upon, they should return fire to eliminate the threat. The police department is responsible for providing ongoing training to its officers and the department & mayors office should hold them accountable in firing officers that don’t uphold high standards. In this case, it is nowhere clear that officers acted out of line in a gunfight somebody else started. You’re armchair quarterbacking a tense situation, and demanding too much blood for blood instead of looking to improve the system. Your high standards would be appropriately applied if officers had come in and started firing without having been fired upon. You’re just diminishing threat and the ongoing risk of dead officers (if you need to see videos of suspects drawing guns to shoot two cops dead, let me know. Count the seconds from situation in hand to cops writhing on the ground.) This ain’t the clear cut situation of mistakes and neglecting high standards that you think it is.
It's important to note a couple things (not all things you mentioned specifically, but still relevant to the point you're making):
1) Being a police officer isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous professions in the U.S.
2) Police officers are not "warriors", they are not "defending sheep from wolves", and they are never working in anything close to a "warzone".
3) Combat personnel in the military that are in actual warzones are held to higher use-of-force standards than American police are. This is against people that aren't American citizens and are frequently enemy combatants that are explicitly there to kill you.
The difference is police officers choose to be police officers. Black people get shot for being black, a choice they emphatically did not make. Police are, in theory, paid to do a job. A job held to certain standards. And if, to you, that standard involves freely shooting anyone who looks like they might have been reaching into a bag or pocket, or for having a funny look on their face as their home is being invaded, and that's why you don't have a problem with killings like this, then I think we all have a sufficient understanding of each other.
Also, Trump is just casually suggesting everything will be cool if we let him continue to play dictator if he loses, and to toss out the ballots, suggesting there will just be a "continuation" rather than peaceful transfer of power. He doesn't understand that terms limits are hard-coded all over the place, and that if he doesn't win the election in a verifiable manner, his ass is out. Done. There is no space to entertain this nonsense.
Trump has repeatedly expressed fascist ideas. Trump also started espousing racist/eugenic talking points that were reminiscent of Nazi Germany in a speech in Bemidji, MN a night or two ago. Of course, the conservatives here will just plug their ears and say "lalala I can't hear you" until they get the Supreme Court pick and whatever else they want. Screw integrity, screw morals, and screw democratic principles. It's all about winning!
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On September 24 2020 11:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 10:48 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 10:26 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:05 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 09:12 iamthedave wrote:On September 24 2020 08:34 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 07:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 07:08 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 06:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 05:51 Danglars wrote:
As details emerge, the Breonna Taylor case came down to:
Strength of testimony indicating that it was not a "no-knock" warrant. Officers announced their presence loudly.
The boyfriend inside the apartment fired first at police (at the door in his testimony). The first shot fired in the police raid was by an occupant of the apartment shooting a police officer in the leg.
(Also, judges rule on qualified immunity, so don't act like the grand jury failed to indict on that basis) The boyfriend called 911 immediately after and said “I don’t know what’s happening,” Walker said in the call. “Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend.” Maybe they whispered it ? Doesn't look like he heard their identification. Hard without bodycams. Strength of testimony is ONE witness corroborating. Do you really still trust police reports ? Take them with a grain of salt. Listen to it here to see if it sounds untruthful : https://soundcloud.com/wfplnews/911-call-in-shooting-death-of-breonna-taylor-released I'll wait to hear more discussion of corroborating witness testimony. The news articles I've read aren't clear on the number of (ear)witnesses saying the police clearly identified themselves, versus the ones that said they didn't hear that part and just the breaking/entering. The guy that had just shot someone saying he didn't know on the 911 call after the fact is not dispositive, just as you bring up with officer testimony that they waited 45 seconds to a minute after announcement to enter. It's the officer's words against his words, some witnesses against other witnesses ... and people were expecting the officers to be charged on that kind of evidence? The cnn link in my previous post explains both testimonies and who the witness is. I think both versions can be true simultaneously, depending on the type of door and where the bedroom was located relative to the door. I personally don't hear voices through my entrance door though I can hear some noises... No, they are expecting charges against officers who manage to hit 5 times an unarmed woman lying on the floor, and miss the guy who shot at them. At least a wanton killing of taylor or something. I mean, the investigation couldn't even decide whose bullets were 4 out of the 5 that hit her. They could only identify the killing blow. It's a tough case but it seems the warrant itself is not really 100% based on accurate elements. The CNN link is a narrative style that makes no claims as to all witnesses called in grand jury. I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on. That's why I said I'll wait to hear more on that count. In the case that both are true, then it is neither officers nor boyfriend who are guilty of any crime (setting aside single officer wantonly firing bullets everywhere). The boyfriend shot the cops, the cops returned fire, and no grand jury is going to find the officers guilty for any crimes there. You sound like inaccuracy in a gunfight is a chargeable crime. Maybe they'll release a 3d apartment model and every shot tracing so you can pull it apart like the JFK assassination. This should lead to reforms in the way the Louisville police serve search warrants, and it already has stopped the no-knock warrants. Police officers don't have to go to jail out of anger just to get things done. Nonetheless, manslaughter is manslaughter. A woman died, and nobody's been held accountable. That's the root problem. No way should this be a murder charge, but it's ridiculous that everyone walks away. And it points to the problem of the second amendment again; it did nothing to protect the citizen, and in fact got his girlfriend killed (assuming he's telling the truth of course). Frankly it's amazing he survived. Looking at the reports of the amount of shots poured into the apartment I picture the scene in Pulp Fiction where a perfect body outline of Samuel L Jackson gets shot in the wall. It didn’t look like even manslaughter would be appropriate, pending additional details. Just because a woman died doesn’t mean someone should be punished for it. The man inside could’ve accidentally shot and killed an officer, and it shouldn’t be automatic that somebody must be held responsible for him either. According to my ethics, people with authority to kill should be held to extremely high standards and also extremely accountable. To me, a mistake of this nature is simply not acceptable and needs to be severely punished. Where do we disagree? You’re armchair quarterbacking a tense situation, and demanding too much blood for blood instead of looking to improve the system. From my perspective, officers being accountable improves the system. I often hear that when someone breaks into someone else's house, it is entirely fair for that person to shoot to kill, because they don't know how dangerous the people are. I can agree with that in some situations and this is certainly among them. Do you think it is fair for someone to shoot to kill when someone breaks into their home? I think it is reasonable for the officers to be shot, since they broke into someone's house. If you believe people don't have the right to shoot intruders, I understand your perspective. But I feel like we have discussed this kind of thing before and you've agreed people have the right to defend their homes. I would say that if we accept the idea that someone breaking into your house allows for ethical use of violence, it was ethical for the officers to be shot. Do we disagree on that?
You clipped out the part where I discussed your first paragraph, so I guess no further comment there.
If the police do not announce themselves clearly and give time, then the homeowners are within their rights to fire in self defense. I don’t know how far you want to go down the methods and techniques of search warrants and how they relate to officers of the state legally breaking into your house.
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On September 24 2020 11:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 10:48 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 10:26 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:05 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 09:12 iamthedave wrote:On September 24 2020 08:34 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 07:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 07:08 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 06:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 05:51 Danglars wrote:
As details emerge, the Breonna Taylor case came down to:
Strength of testimony indicating that it was not a "no-knock" warrant. Officers announced their presence loudly.
The boyfriend inside the apartment fired first at police (at the door in his testimony). The first shot fired in the police raid was by an occupant of the apartment shooting a police officer in the leg.
(Also, judges rule on qualified immunity, so don't act like the grand jury failed to indict on that basis) The boyfriend called 911 immediately after and said “I don’t know what’s happening,” Walker said in the call. “Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend.” Maybe they whispered it ? Doesn't look like he heard their identification. Hard without bodycams. Strength of testimony is ONE witness corroborating. Do you really still trust police reports ? Take them with a grain of salt. Listen to it here to see if it sounds untruthful : https://soundcloud.com/wfplnews/911-call-in-shooting-death-of-breonna-taylor-released I'll wait to hear more discussion of corroborating witness testimony. The news articles I've read aren't clear on the number of (ear)witnesses saying the police clearly identified themselves, versus the ones that said they didn't hear that part and just the breaking/entering. The guy that had just shot someone saying he didn't know on the 911 call after the fact is not dispositive, just as you bring up with officer testimony that they waited 45 seconds to a minute after announcement to enter. It's the officer's words against his words, some witnesses against other witnesses ... and people were expecting the officers to be charged on that kind of evidence? The cnn link in my previous post explains both testimonies and who the witness is. I think both versions can be true simultaneously, depending on the type of door and where the bedroom was located relative to the door. I personally don't hear voices through my entrance door though I can hear some noises... No, they are expecting charges against officers who manage to hit 5 times an unarmed woman lying on the floor, and miss the guy who shot at them. At least a wanton killing of taylor or something. I mean, the investigation couldn't even decide whose bullets were 4 out of the 5 that hit her. They could only identify the killing blow. It's a tough case but it seems the warrant itself is not really 100% based on accurate elements. The CNN link is a narrative style that makes no claims as to all witnesses called in grand jury. I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on. That's why I said I'll wait to hear more on that count. In the case that both are true, then it is neither officers nor boyfriend who are guilty of any crime (setting aside single officer wantonly firing bullets everywhere). The boyfriend shot the cops, the cops returned fire, and no grand jury is going to find the officers guilty for any crimes there. You sound like inaccuracy in a gunfight is a chargeable crime. Maybe they'll release a 3d apartment model and every shot tracing so you can pull it apart like the JFK assassination. This should lead to reforms in the way the Louisville police serve search warrants, and it already has stopped the no-knock warrants. Police officers don't have to go to jail out of anger just to get things done. Nonetheless, manslaughter is manslaughter. A woman died, and nobody's been held accountable. That's the root problem. No way should this be a murder charge, but it's ridiculous that everyone walks away. And it points to the problem of the second amendment again; it did nothing to protect the citizen, and in fact got his girlfriend killed (assuming he's telling the truth of course). Frankly it's amazing he survived. Looking at the reports of the amount of shots poured into the apartment I picture the scene in Pulp Fiction where a perfect body outline of Samuel L Jackson gets shot in the wall. It didn’t look like even manslaughter would be appropriate, pending additional details. Just because a woman died doesn’t mean someone should be punished for it. The man inside could’ve accidentally shot and killed an officer, and it shouldn’t be automatic that somebody must be held responsible for him either. According to my ethics, people with authority to kill should be held to extremely high standards and also extremely accountable. To me, a mistake of this nature is simply not acceptable and needs to be severely punished. Where do we disagree? Police will find themselves in dangerous situations everyday. When fired upon, they should return fire to eliminate the threat. The police department is responsible for providing ongoing training to its officers and the department & mayors office should hold them accountable in firing officers that don’t uphold high standards. In this case, it is nowhere clear that officers acted out of line in a gunfight somebody else started. You’re armchair quarterbacking a tense situation, and demanding too much blood for blood instead of looking to improve the system. Your high standards would be appropriately applied if officers had come in and started firing without having been fired upon. You’re just diminishing threat and the ongoing risk of dead officers (if you need to see videos of suspects drawing guns to shoot two cops dead, let me know. Count the seconds from situation in hand to cops writhing on the ground.) This ain’t the clear cut situation of mistakes and neglecting high standards that you think it is. It's important to note a couple things (not all things you mentioned specifically, but still relevant to the point you're making): 1) Being a police officer isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous professions in the U.S. 2) Police officers are not "warriors", they are not "defending sheep from wolves", and they are never working in anything close to a "warzone". 3) Combat personnel in the military that are in actual warzones are held to higher use-of-force standards than American police are.
Like I said, police can get other jobs if they can’t handle the heat. Why are people carrying water for people who are bad at their jobs. Every other profession expects competency yet we never do with police officers.
If rule of law mandates that police officers are allowed mulligans because they’re all cowards, how much use is the rule of law honestly? All the people who still point to the rule of law as being worth anything in the US are all hilarious not to mention inconsistent because they obviously don’t care when they benefit from laws being trampled on.
Edit: Stories of the US police being shit at their jobs and getting no punishment has been happening for ages. Nile Rodgers nearly got killed at a gas station when a white woman pressed the station’s panic button and called armed police officers to run inside the gas station guns blazing. The only reason he didn’t die that day was because he was Nile Rodgers. Not everyone is the greatest hit maker in the music industry.
If they took a second to survey the situation, they’d have seen an expensive car stuck at the pump and a black man obviously trying to buy snacks and drinks. But police officers have shown time and time again to shoot first and think later is perfectly valid when everyone makes excuses for their lack of critical thinking. Taylor died because police officers didn’t use their brains full stop.
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On September 24 2020 11:28 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 11:19 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:48 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 10:26 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:05 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 09:12 iamthedave wrote:On September 24 2020 08:34 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 07:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 07:08 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 06:16 Nouar wrote:[quote] The boyfriend called 911 immediately after and said “I don’t know what’s happening,” Walker said in the call. “Somebody kicked in the door and shot my girlfriend.” Maybe they whispered it ? Doesn't look like he heard their identification. Hard without bodycams. Strength of testimony is ONE witness corroborating. Do you really still trust police reports ? Take them with a grain of salt. Listen to it here to see if it sounds untruthful : https://soundcloud.com/wfplnews/911-call-in-shooting-death-of-breonna-taylor-released I'll wait to hear more discussion of corroborating witness testimony. The news articles I've read aren't clear on the number of (ear)witnesses saying the police clearly identified themselves, versus the ones that said they didn't hear that part and just the breaking/entering. The guy that had just shot someone saying he didn't know on the 911 call after the fact is not dispositive, just as you bring up with officer testimony that they waited 45 seconds to a minute after announcement to enter. It's the officer's words against his words, some witnesses against other witnesses ... and people were expecting the officers to be charged on that kind of evidence? The cnn link in my previous post explains both testimonies and who the witness is. I think both versions can be true simultaneously, depending on the type of door and where the bedroom was located relative to the door. I personally don't hear voices through my entrance door though I can hear some noises... No, they are expecting charges against officers who manage to hit 5 times an unarmed woman lying on the floor, and miss the guy who shot at them. At least a wanton killing of taylor or something. I mean, the investigation couldn't even decide whose bullets were 4 out of the 5 that hit her. They could only identify the killing blow. It's a tough case but it seems the warrant itself is not really 100% based on accurate elements. The CNN link is a narrative style that makes no claims as to all witnesses called in grand jury. I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on. That's why I said I'll wait to hear more on that count. In the case that both are true, then it is neither officers nor boyfriend who are guilty of any crime (setting aside single officer wantonly firing bullets everywhere). The boyfriend shot the cops, the cops returned fire, and no grand jury is going to find the officers guilty for any crimes there. You sound like inaccuracy in a gunfight is a chargeable crime. Maybe they'll release a 3d apartment model and every shot tracing so you can pull it apart like the JFK assassination. This should lead to reforms in the way the Louisville police serve search warrants, and it already has stopped the no-knock warrants. Police officers don't have to go to jail out of anger just to get things done. Nonetheless, manslaughter is manslaughter. A woman died, and nobody's been held accountable. That's the root problem. No way should this be a murder charge, but it's ridiculous that everyone walks away. And it points to the problem of the second amendment again; it did nothing to protect the citizen, and in fact got his girlfriend killed (assuming he's telling the truth of course). Frankly it's amazing he survived. Looking at the reports of the amount of shots poured into the apartment I picture the scene in Pulp Fiction where a perfect body outline of Samuel L Jackson gets shot in the wall. It didn’t look like even manslaughter would be appropriate, pending additional details. Just because a woman died doesn’t mean someone should be punished for it. The man inside could’ve accidentally shot and killed an officer, and it shouldn’t be automatic that somebody must be held responsible for him either. According to my ethics, people with authority to kill should be held to extremely high standards and also extremely accountable. To me, a mistake of this nature is simply not acceptable and needs to be severely punished. Where do we disagree? You’re armchair quarterbacking a tense situation, and demanding too much blood for blood instead of looking to improve the system. From my perspective, officers being accountable improves the system. I often hear that when someone breaks into someone else's house, it is entirely fair for that person to shoot to kill, because they don't know how dangerous the people are. I can agree with that in some situations and this is certainly among them. Do you think it is fair for someone to shoot to kill when someone breaks into their home? I think it is reasonable for the officers to be shot, since they broke into someone's house. If you believe people don't have the right to shoot intruders, I understand your perspective. But I feel like we have discussed this kind of thing before and you've agreed people have the right to defend their homes. I would say that if we accept the idea that someone breaking into your house allows for ethical use of violence, it was ethical for the officers to be shot. Do we disagree on that? You clipped out the part where I discussed your first paragraph, so I guess no further comment there. If the police do not announce themselves clearly and give time, then the homeowners are within their rights to fire in self defense. I don’t know how far you want to go down the methods and techniques of search warrants and how they relate to officers of the state legally breaking into your house.
I felt like the first couple of sentences were a lot more open ended and more difficult to find points of agreement.
My understanding is that the cops no-knocked and would qualify for the right to fire in self defense. If they rightfully fired in self defense, does not mean the cops committed the first unethical act by creating the situation to begin with? If it is ethical to shoot the intruder, doesn't that mean the person defending their home did not commit an unethical act? And in that way, someone was killed by police negligence?
To me, breaking into a house is equivalent to initiating violence. And by initiating violence in a situation that can ethically result in self defense, what the cops did was supremely unethical as people who are given extra power to kill. In this instance, they misused their power, and in doing so, they should be severely punished. Where do we disagree?
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On September 24 2020 11:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 11:28 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 11:19 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:48 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 10:26 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:05 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 09:12 iamthedave wrote:On September 24 2020 08:34 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 07:16 Nouar wrote:On September 24 2020 07:08 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
I'll wait to hear more discussion of corroborating witness testimony. The news articles I've read aren't clear on the number of (ear)witnesses saying the police clearly identified themselves, versus the ones that said they didn't hear that part and just the breaking/entering.
The guy that had just shot someone saying he didn't know on the 911 call after the fact is not dispositive, just as you bring up with officer testimony that they waited 45 seconds to a minute after announcement to enter. It's the officer's words against his words, some witnesses against other witnesses ... and people were expecting the officers to be charged on that kind of evidence? The cnn link in my previous post explains both testimonies and who the witness is. I think both versions can be true simultaneously, depending on the type of door and where the bedroom was located relative to the door. I personally don't hear voices through my entrance door though I can hear some noises... No, they are expecting charges against officers who manage to hit 5 times an unarmed woman lying on the floor, and miss the guy who shot at them. At least a wanton killing of taylor or something. I mean, the investigation couldn't even decide whose bullets were 4 out of the 5 that hit her. They could only identify the killing blow. It's a tough case but it seems the warrant itself is not really 100% based on accurate elements. The CNN link is a narrative style that makes no claims as to all witnesses called in grand jury. I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on. That's why I said I'll wait to hear more on that count. In the case that both are true, then it is neither officers nor boyfriend who are guilty of any crime (setting aside single officer wantonly firing bullets everywhere). The boyfriend shot the cops, the cops returned fire, and no grand jury is going to find the officers guilty for any crimes there. You sound like inaccuracy in a gunfight is a chargeable crime. Maybe they'll release a 3d apartment model and every shot tracing so you can pull it apart like the JFK assassination. This should lead to reforms in the way the Louisville police serve search warrants, and it already has stopped the no-knock warrants. Police officers don't have to go to jail out of anger just to get things done. Nonetheless, manslaughter is manslaughter. A woman died, and nobody's been held accountable. That's the root problem. No way should this be a murder charge, but it's ridiculous that everyone walks away. And it points to the problem of the second amendment again; it did nothing to protect the citizen, and in fact got his girlfriend killed (assuming he's telling the truth of course). Frankly it's amazing he survived. Looking at the reports of the amount of shots poured into the apartment I picture the scene in Pulp Fiction where a perfect body outline of Samuel L Jackson gets shot in the wall. It didn’t look like even manslaughter would be appropriate, pending additional details. Just because a woman died doesn’t mean someone should be punished for it. The man inside could’ve accidentally shot and killed an officer, and it shouldn’t be automatic that somebody must be held responsible for him either. According to my ethics, people with authority to kill should be held to extremely high standards and also extremely accountable. To me, a mistake of this nature is simply not acceptable and needs to be severely punished. Where do we disagree? You’re armchair quarterbacking a tense situation, and demanding too much blood for blood instead of looking to improve the system. From my perspective, officers being accountable improves the system. I often hear that when someone breaks into someone else's house, it is entirely fair for that person to shoot to kill, because they don't know how dangerous the people are. I can agree with that in some situations and this is certainly among them. Do you think it is fair for someone to shoot to kill when someone breaks into their home? I think it is reasonable for the officers to be shot, since they broke into someone's house. If you believe people don't have the right to shoot intruders, I understand your perspective. But I feel like we have discussed this kind of thing before and you've agreed people have the right to defend their homes. I would say that if we accept the idea that someone breaking into your house allows for ethical use of violence, it was ethical for the officers to be shot. Do we disagree on that? You clipped out the part where I discussed your first paragraph, so I guess no further comment there. If the police do not announce themselves clearly and give time, then the homeowners are within their rights to fire in self defense. I don’t know how far you want to go down the methods and techniques of search warrants and how they relate to officers of the state legally breaking into your house. I felt like the first couple of sentences were a lot more open ended and more difficult to find points of agreement. My understanding is that the cops no-knocked and would qualify for the right to fire in self defense. If they rightfully fired in self defense, does not mean the cops committed the first unethical act by creating the situation to begin with? If it is ethical to shoot the intruder, doesn't that mean the person defending their home did not commit an unethical act? And in that way, someone was killed by police negligence? To me, breaking into a house is equivalent to initiating violence. And by initiating violence in a situation that can ethically result in self defense, what the cops did was supremely unethical as people who are given extra power to kill. In this instance, they misused their power, and in doing so, they should be severely punished. Where do we disagree?
Should they be punished within the law or outside the law? What law did they break?
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On September 24 2020 11:53 StalkerTL wrote:Welp two cops shot in Louisville.
Shit is going down in the USA - this type of unrest is getting more and more common
I fear November could be catastrophic
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On September 24 2020 11:54 Bagration wrote:Shit is going down in the USA - this type of unrest is getting more and more common I fear November could be catastrophic
It absolutely is going to be, especially with Trump doing everything to invalidate the election as much as possible despite the election being a month away.
Like does anyone have any faith in the election results? No matter who wins, people are going to think the other side stole the election. While shit goes down, we’re going to hear the same voices suggest that Trump did nothing to exacerbate the situation.
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I'm curious about Danglars understanding for how police officers forgot they broke in and shot Breonna Taylor to death when it was time to write their report of the incident?
Seems like the kind of incompetence (being generous) that should result in the immediate revocation of being an armed cop.
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On September 24 2020 11:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm curious about Danglars understanding for how police officers forgot they broke in and shot Breonna Taylor to death when it was time to write their report of the incident?
Seems like the kind of incompetence (being generous) that should result in the immediate revocation of being an armed cop.
“Rule of law says they were legally allowed, Kentucky fixed that law so no problems sorry Taylor died but cops were only doing their job”
Every defense of these cops has been this.
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I gotta say i'm struggling square the circle of danglars' attitude to this and his attitude in the gun thread to the idea of defending your home with a weapon.
GIven what he's said about shooting first when someone has broken into his house, I'd think he'd be much, much more sympathetic to the victims here, because that could very easily have been danglars himself.
Isn't this 'no-knock' warrant something that should only be used in exceptional circumstances danglars? Or if the cops were called to your house can't you see something like this happening?
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On September 24 2020 12:01 StalkerTL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 11:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm curious about Danglars understanding for how police officers forgot they broke in and shot Breonna Taylor to death when it was time to write their report of the incident?
Seems like the kind of incompetence (being generous) that should result in the immediate revocation of being an armed cop. “Rule of law says they were legally allowed, Kentucky fixed that law so no problems sorry Taylor died but cops were only doing their job” Every defense of these cops has been this.
Not mentioning that they broke in and shot an innocent woman to death in their report seems like the opposite of doing their jobs (entertaining the notion it isn't to secure white supremacy and protect wealth)
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To me this case shows that three things need addressing:
1: Police procedure that encourages gung-ho policing, creating violence and tragedy where there need not be any.
2: Individual police do not take the victims of violence and tragedy seriously (hence the reports with massive gaps)
3: America's gun laws and gun culture create situations where everyday interactions become life and death situations for absolutely no reason, so more violence and tragedy.
I'm looking forward to checking the thread later for excuses why the US doesn't need to address any of that shit.
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if it wasn't obvious that cops need body cameras on in these situations so things don't devolve into a "he said, she said" kind of situation, Also regardless of whether the cops announced their identity or not, there's got to be a better way for police to inform someone of their presence instead of knocking and declaring that they are actually police. A malevolent person can pretend to be a cop by doing this and the person inside wouldn't know.
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EPT
