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On September 24 2020 12:33 Jockmcplop wrote:
To me this case shows that three things need addressing:
1: Police procedure that encourages gung-ho policing, creating violence and tragedy where there need not be any.
2: Individual police do not take the victims of violence and tragedy seriously (hence the reports with massive gaps)
3: America's gun laws and gun culture create situations where everyday interactions become life and death situations for absolutely no reason, so more violence and tragedy.
I'm looking forward to checking the thread later for excuses why the US doesn't need to address any of that shit.
"Have to win elections and holding police accountable isn't popular with moderate Republicans." - Democrats my whole life
On September 24 2020 12:36 Anc13nt wrote:
if it wasn't obvious that cops need body cameras on in these situations so things don't devolve into a "he said, she said" kind of situation, then it is now.
That was made clear after Rodney King almost 30 years ago. Pretty much the only people opposing it for the last decade or so have been police (and they run their cities more than the politicians when it comes to their affairs).
But I'm sure Biden's plan of giving these gangs more money will help (buy them nicer cars to run people over in).
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On September 24 2020 11:54 Bagration wrote:Shit is going down in the USA - this type of unrest is getting more and more common I fear November could be catastrophic
Can't say I'm surprised at all.
Currently, the only people facing consequences as far as I can tell are the taxpayers, who are on the hook for a 12M settlement. The taxpayers are on the hook for 4 bad cops, to the tune of 3M each.
That's the lifetime salary of a well paid civil servant(including pension and other benefits), spent on each of the cops, which is ridiculous.
Nobody else, for what is effectively a break and enter/murder by cop, has faced any consequences whatsoever.
The American "justice" system is functionally broken. If you're white, and are one(or more) of the following, it seems consequences are simply not a thing.
- Rich
- Protesting against minorities
- Cop
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You know what is really telling? Cops can break in, scare the living daylights and kill innocent people and be like"ehh it is a dangerous job and mistakes happen" and get away scott free but when people do it to cop, Shoot at them cause they are scared and dont know who is attacking there house in the confusion it is attempted murder. I mean why are they not so nonchalant then. Mistakes happen in these high pressure situation right.
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On September 24 2020 12:59 Shingi11 wrote:
You know what is really telling? Cops can break in, scare the living daylights and kill innocent people and be like"ehh it is a dangerous job and mistakes happen" and get away scott free but when people do it to cop, Shoot at them cause they are scared and dont know who is attacking there house in the confusion it is attempted murder. I mean why are they not so nonchalant then. Mistakes happen in these high pressure situation right.
Not to mention that the cops are supposed to be trained and assessed.
If the guy was shooting 'wildly and blindly', the person that gave him his gun should be equally up for criminal charges.
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On September 24 2020 12:17 Jockmcplop wrote:
I gotta say i'm struggling square the circle of danglars' attitude to this and his attitude in the gun thread to the idea of defending your home with a weapon.
GIven what he's said about shooting first when someone has broken into his house, I'd think he'd be much, much more sympathetic to the victims here, because that could very easily have been danglars himself.
Isn't this 'no-knock' warrant something that should only be used in exceptional circumstances danglars? Or if the cops were called to your house can't you see something like this happening?
It wasn’t a no-knock warrant, as other people have posted in articles in this thread. See my other posts on this subject for more details.
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That people can believe anything a cop says says so much about the state of this country.
We should count cops as about as trustworthy as Donald Trump.
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On September 24 2020 13:34 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 13:20 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 12:17 Jockmcplop wrote:
I gotta say i'm struggling square the circle of danglars' attitude to this and his attitude in the gun thread to the idea of defending your home with a weapon.
GIven what he's said about shooting first when someone has broken into his house, I'd think he'd be much, much more sympathetic to the victims here, because that could very easily have been danglars himself.
Isn't this 'no-knock' warrant something that should only be used in exceptional circumstances danglars? Or if the cops were called to your house can't you see something like this happening? It wasn’t a no-knock warrant, as other people have posted in articles in this thread. See my other posts on this subject for more details. You deciding the police report is unquestionably accurate despite all reason actually proves his point and does dispute it. “Facts” to you have little to do with Truth and everything with fitting your narrative.
Jimmi just out of curiosity what do you expect Biden to do about this situation (the larger general issue of police violence) if he becomes president? Do you think he's going to need to take action against the police in some way like removing some funding, should he let them be, or should he give them extra resources so they can do it more?
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On September 24 2020 13:42 Zambrah wrote:
That people can believe anything a cop says says so much about the state of this country.
We should count cops as about as trustworthy and Donald Trump.
It’s all about maintaining rule of law as a means of control for most people. As soon as the court and justice system is seen as untrustworthy, the only means of control is through violence or popular rule.
Which is fine if rule of law was actually followed and we’re not pick and choosing technicalities to justify the garbage behaviour of our politicians. Can someone tell me if Kelly Loeffler is going to get done for insider trading or is she technically in the clear because the person managing her stocks was the one who did the conveniently timed trades and she “had no knowledge of the activity”.
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On September 24 2020 13:00 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 12:59 Shingi11 wrote:
You know what is really telling? Cops can break in, scare the living daylights and kill innocent people and be like"ehh it is a dangerous job and mistakes happen" and get away scott free but when people do it to cop, Shoot at them cause they are scared and dont know who is attacking there house in the confusion it is attempted murder. I mean why are they not so nonchalant then. Mistakes happen in these high pressure situation right. Not to mention that the cops are supposed to be trained and assessed. If the guy was shooting 'wildly and blindly', the person that gave him his gun should be equally up for criminal charges.
Ya cops get to say the magic words "i feared for my safety" and it is basically a blank check to do what they want. Could be gunning down 1 unarmed person while there is like 10 heavy armed police in riot gear but he looked at them wrong and the sky was the wrong shade of blue so they feared for there life. And they know they know they are able to get away with it too which why we have situations like george floyd. Murdering a man in broad daylight with tons of people watching and filming and not carrying cause they know there cops.
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On September 24 2020 12:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 12:01 StalkerTL wrote:On September 24 2020 11:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm curious about Danglars understanding for how police officers forgot they broke in and shot Breonna Taylor to death when it was time to write their report of the incident?
Seems like the kind of incompetence (being generous) that should result in the immediate revocation of being an armed cop. “Rule of law says they were legally allowed, Kentucky fixed that law so no problems sorry Taylor died but cops were only doing their job” Every defense of these cops has been this. Not mentioning that they broke in and shot an innocent woman to death in their report seems like the opposite of doing their jobs (entertaining the notion it isn't to secure white supremacy and protect wealth)
Wait, was it not even in their report?
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On September 24 2020 12:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 12:01 StalkerTL wrote:On September 24 2020 11:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm curious about Danglars understanding for how police officers forgot they broke in and shot Breonna Taylor to death when it was time to write their report of the incident?
Seems like the kind of incompetence (being generous) that should result in the immediate revocation of being an armed cop. “Rule of law says they were legally allowed, Kentucky fixed that law so no problems sorry Taylor died but cops were only doing their job” Every defense of these cops has been this. Not mentioning that they broke in and shot an innocent woman to death in their report seems like the opposite of doing their jobs (entertaining the notion it isn't to secure white supremacy and protect wealth)
The role of the cops is to protect the state, no more, no less. The SCOTUS has ruled they have no obligation to do anything else (which is why the protect and serve motto is total and complete bullshit). I'm sure all the private property they let burn during riots and unrest is them "protecting wealth". If you notice as soon as the mobs target State officials and buildings police come arunning and politicians are quick to make the same spiel as Trump does (look at Ted Wheeler and Durkan for instance).
1) No-knock warrants and raids are beyond idiotic and clear violations of our rights
2) Police have been out of control for a long time and guess what caused this death? The Drug War. Score another run for State-malfeasance and incompetence. The Drug War has been a million times more disastrous than Prohibition, but you still have people defending it. It's insane.
All the "police" reforms won't matter one iota if you don't slash and burn the laws on the books that criminalize vast non-violent "offenses". The less police are required to interact with the citizenry the better.
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Is there no such thing as involuntary manslaughter ?
The cops came and shot a sleeping woman. They didn't shoot the boyfriend who shot at them.
Also, who could have foreseen this coming ? Breaking in the middle of the night in somebody's house when they have the right to bear arms and should shoot you based on what they know.
If you are ready to sign this as the cost of protection, you should start thinking that the next time, you or someone you love might become that collateral damage.
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On September 24 2020 17:11 Erasme wrote:
Is there no such thing as involuntary manslaughter ?
The cops came and shot a sleeping woman. They didn't shoot the boyfriend who shot at them.
Also, who could have foreseen this coming ? Breaking in the middle of the night in somebody's house when they have the right to bear arms and should shoot you based on what they know.
If you are ready to sign this as the cost of protection, you should start thinking that the next time, you or someone you love might become that collateral damage.
I can't believe that this is an acceptable cost of protection and removing the freedom to own weapons isn't.
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The abolish the police stuff which involves removing funding not reallocating or reimagining the roles and who is best to do them is ignorant.
No one is advocating to abolish the police and not reallocate their funding or reimagine how to address the issues people think (usually in error) the police do.
The defund movement is part of the abolition movement. The "defund and reform" crowd are liberals that just learned about the defund/abolition movement recently and are attempting to coopt and undermine it.
On September 24 2020 14:09 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 12:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 24 2020 12:01 StalkerTL wrote:On September 24 2020 11:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm curious about Danglars understanding for how police officers forgot they broke in and shot Breonna Taylor to death when it was time to write their report of the incident?
Seems like the kind of incompetence (being generous) that should result in the immediate revocation of being an armed cop. “Rule of law says they were legally allowed, Kentucky fixed that law so no problems sorry Taylor died but cops were only doing their job” Every defense of these cops has been this. Not mentioning that they broke in and shot an innocent woman to death in their report seems like the opposite of doing their jobs (entertaining the notion it isn't to secure white supremacy and protect wealth) Wait, was it not even in their report?
First report was practically blank. Said there wasn't forced entry (used a battering ram), said she wasn't injured (she bleed to death for 20 minutes without aid), and the part where they are paid to describe/narrate the event simply said "PIU investigation" which stands for "Public Integrity Unit"
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On September 24 2020 11:47 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2020 11:39 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 11:28 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 11:19 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:48 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 10:26 Mohdoo wrote:On September 24 2020 10:05 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 09:12 iamthedave wrote:On September 24 2020 08:34 Danglars wrote:On September 24 2020 07:16 Nouar wrote:
[quote]
The cnn link in my previous post explains both testimonies and who the witness is. I think both versions can be true simultaneously, depending on the type of door and where the bedroom was located relative to the door. I personally don't hear voices through my entrance door though I can hear some noises...
No, they are expecting charges against officers who manage to hit 5 times an unarmed woman lying on the floor, and miss the guy who shot at them. At least a wanton killing of taylor or something.
I mean, the investigation couldn't even decide whose bullets were 4 out of the 5 that hit her. They could only identify the killing blow.
It's a tough case but it seems the warrant itself is not really 100% based on accurate elements.
The CNN link is a narrative style that makes no claims as to all witnesses called in grand jury. I suspect we'll learn more as time goes on. That's why I said I'll wait to hear more on that count. In the case that both are true, then it is neither officers nor boyfriend who are guilty of any crime (setting aside single officer wantonly firing bullets everywhere). The boyfriend shot the cops, the cops returned fire, and no grand jury is going to find the officers guilty for any crimes there. You sound like inaccuracy in a gunfight is a chargeable crime. Maybe they'll release a 3d apartment model and every shot tracing so you can pull it apart like the JFK assassination. This should lead to reforms in the way the Louisville police serve search warrants, and it already has stopped the no-knock warrants. Police officers don't have to go to jail out of anger just to get things done. Nonetheless, manslaughter is manslaughter. A woman died, and nobody's been held accountable. That's the root problem. No way should this be a murder charge, but it's ridiculous that everyone walks away. And it points to the problem of the second amendment again; it did nothing to protect the citizen, and in fact got his girlfriend killed (assuming he's telling the truth of course). Frankly it's amazing he survived. Looking at the reports of the amount of shots poured into the apartment I picture the scene in Pulp Fiction where a perfect body outline of Samuel L Jackson gets shot in the wall. It didn’t look like even manslaughter would be appropriate, pending additional details. Just because a woman died doesn’t mean someone should be punished for it. The man inside could’ve accidentally shot and killed an officer, and it shouldn’t be automatic that somebody must be held responsible for him either. According to my ethics, people with authority to kill should be held to extremely high standards and also extremely accountable. To me, a mistake of this nature is simply not acceptable and needs to be severely punished. Where do we disagree? You’re armchair quarterbacking a tense situation, and demanding too much blood for blood instead of looking to improve the system. From my perspective, officers being accountable improves the system. I often hear that when someone breaks into someone else's house, it is entirely fair for that person to shoot to kill, because they don't know how dangerous the people are. I can agree with that in some situations and this is certainly among them. Do you think it is fair for someone to shoot to kill when someone breaks into their home? I think it is reasonable for the officers to be shot, since they broke into someone's house. If you believe people don't have the right to shoot intruders, I understand your perspective. But I feel like we have discussed this kind of thing before and you've agreed people have the right to defend their homes. I would say that if we accept the idea that someone breaking into your house allows for ethical use of violence, it was ethical for the officers to be shot. Do we disagree on that? You clipped out the part where I discussed your first paragraph, so I guess no further comment there. If the police do not announce themselves clearly and give time, then the homeowners are within their rights to fire in self defense. I don’t know how far you want to go down the methods and techniques of search warrants and how they relate to officers of the state legally breaking into your house. I felt like the first couple of sentences were a lot more open ended and more difficult to find points of agreement. My understanding is that the cops no-knocked and would qualify for the right to fire in self defense. If they rightfully fired in self defense, does not mean the cops committed the first unethical act by creating the situation to begin with? If it is ethical to shoot the intruder, doesn't that mean the person defending their home did not commit an unethical act? And in that way, someone was killed by police negligence? To me, breaking into a house is equivalent to initiating violence. And by initiating violence in a situation that can ethically result in self defense, what the cops did was supremely unethical as people who are given extra power to kill. In this instance, they misused their power, and in doing so, they should be severely punished. Where do we disagree? Should they be punished within the law or outside the law? What law did they break? If the law does not allow for an officer shooting wildly and killing an innocent person to be punished then the law should be changed.
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In some countries, cops are forced to write a report anytime they discharge their weapons. Funnily enough, the prospect of paperworks curb their enthusiasm. But in the US, it's just another day of cops doing their jobs. The blatant disregard for human life is disgusting to witness. As are the attempts to justify it.
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On September 24 2020 18:07 Erasme wrote:
In some countries, cops are forced to write a report anytime they discharge their weapons. Funnily enough, the prospect of paperworks curb their enthusiasm. But in the US, it's just another day of cops doing their jobs. The blatant disregard for human life is disgusting to witness. As are the attempts to justify it.
Same disgust I feel when people suggest voting for Democrats is a solution as if BLM didn't start under Obama and RBG didn't call Kaepernick's protesting "dumb and disrespectful" and Biden doesn't think police need MORE money.
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Trump refuses to endorse a peaceful transition of power if he loses and instead answer with his usual conspiracy warning about voter fraud.
Waiting for the usual suspect to shrug their shoulders and say none if it matters.
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EPT
