EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2638
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23954 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 18 2020 12:09 GreenHorizons wrote: Unless one can show demonstrative proof the allegations are impossible (not attack her credibility like typically happens to rape victims) calling Reade's allegations fake is extremely anti-feminist I would say giving someone like Reade a platform hurts women by making it more likely other women won't be believed. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23954 Posts
On September 18 2020 13:15 Mohdoo wrote: I would say giving someone like Reade a platform hurts women by making it more likely other women won't be believed. I disagree personally, but that's why I originally framed it about his documented behavior rather than allegations. But Jimmi's gunna Jimmi | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23954 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + There's a definitional issue where my intention was to mean "probable" but I used "probably" which turns out mean different things depending on the definitional source (I thought it was a grammar/syntax thing, which is not a strength of mine). I have however (going back to at least 2017 here), thought it is absolutely fair to call him creepy af based on video and photographic documentation of his behavior around women and children. Additionally, that I agree with wombat on the disappointing, but unsurprising way Democrats/liberals have dealt with it. Based on his long history of documented behavior I find it more likely than not he did what he is accused of but I can't know that he did without a confession or some other irrefutable evidence. Just as I can't know Reade is lying without the same. But as I said, my point was about Biden's documented behavior and Democrats/liberals reaction, not whatever jimmiC is attempting to dredge up (or him specifically at all really other than the anti-feminist nature of calling Reade's allegations "fake" [regardless of who does it]). | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45922 Posts
Even though Trump is significantly worse than Biden when it comes to inappropriate behavior and actions towards women (rape allegations, sexual assault, harassment, etc.) - and, to be clear, Trump is wayyyy worse than Biden here - the context of the political parties needs to be taken into account, when thinking about the effects of Trump being further accused vs. Biden being further accused. Trump supporters high-five each other when Trump talks about harming women; Republicans are notoriously an anti-women party. They either don't care or they actively condone this level of mistreatment towards women, so they aren't fazed by Trump's misogyny. On the other hand, the Democratic party and liberals have traditionally been the champions of women's rights (suffrage, feminism, pro-choice, etc.), so the effects are going to be taken much more seriously by their own audience when one of their own (especially a leader) is even accused of abusing women. It's a double standard, sure, but I think it's important to realize that, at the end of the day, Biden voters will care more about Biden's behavior towards women than Trump voters will care about Trump's behavior towards women. And that's internally consistent with each group's philosophies about women. As Democrats/ liberals/ progressives/ whatevers, it's not appropriate for us to pretend that Biden hasn't actually done things to women that range from super creepy to potentially rape - we don't get the luxury of ignoring women's accusations just because someone on "our side" is the one being accused; that's the difference between us and them - but also, as Democrats/ liberals/ progressives/ whatevers, it's still no contest as to which of the two realistic presidential candidates is more of a threat to women. We can still easily vote for Biden and support women, especially when the alternative to supporting Biden is hurting women significantly more. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23954 Posts
We can still easily vote for Biden and support women, especially when the alternative to supporting Biden is hurting women significantly more. I guess what I've been wondering lately is if Democrats have a limit to this? Would Trump's behavior actually cross it? Then what? Or if Trump is the threat many make him out to be (and I'd largely agree), are those people just going to move on to the importance of voting in 2022/2024? I'd say yes but that is in contradiction with the supposed threat Trump poses? | ||
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pajoondies
United States316 Posts
On September 18 2020 21:43 GreenHorizons wrote: I guess what I've been wondering lately is if Democrats have a limit to this? Would Trump's behavior actually cross it? Then what? Or if Trump is the threat many make him out to be (and I'd largely agree), are those people just going to move on to the importance of voting in 2022/2024? I'd say yes but that is in contradiction with the supposed threat Trump poses? Your question literally doesn't matter unless it happens. Personally, hell yeah I'd apply the same scrutiny to each party and person no matter what- that's what we as citizens of the same country, under the same legal code, are supposed to do. Your question is horribly ironic and the exact stance the right take very often too. 'Yeah, our guy did or might have done this, but what about your guy?' A fair criticism, sure, but they use it as a carte blanche because in their minds, the negatives cancel out and the playing field is even again. That's obviously not true. 'Everyone else was doing it so it's fine for me too' is part of how things (and I'm not trying to be reductionist, it was multifactorial) like nazi Germany happened. That's how we get awful standards of behavior and people like Trump are molded. If Biden did something, I would want him to be held to the same standards we all are expected to. The same, of course, applies to Trump. Again, the irony of it all is that when faced with the same allegations, Trump supporters say exactly that- they're just allegations and if they're true, allow the courts to decide. Facts, not feelings (your feeling that Biden probably did something shady) or opinions. Same applies to Trump, despite his many more sexual assault allegations and his own mouth producing his own disparaging remarks about women. Locker room talk, anyone? But when faced with ACTUAL facts, like idk health science and COVID? Trump contradicts himself in COVID on the regular based on how he feels on a given day. We apparently can rely on courts, scientists, and politicians up and until they say something we don't agree with, and the moment the 'other guy' slips up, it's even again. Edit: I personally would vote Biden again if sexual assault allegations were proven (as despicable as that would be) because he does not exist in a vacuum and the pending threat of more Trump is a greater evil. I know you've expressed that you won't vote because you dislike both sides, but there is no 3rd option here that gives you as a singular person any potential to make yourself heard in this upcoming election. It's unfortunately Biden or Trump, no 3rd party candidate is coming along to win the vote. So perhaps we can ask broadly, with yourself included, what happens if Trump wins? What happens if Biden wins? And which of those scenarios would I prefer? My vote will not swing the election (I live in NYC), but here's my scenario: if everyone votes, Biden wins the popular by an extreme amount (5 million? 10 million?) but Trump wins the election, I want to believe that will highlight the broken system we have now and at least set some kind of precedent for future change. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On September 18 2020 21:43 GreenHorizons wrote: I guess what I've been wondering lately is if Democrats have a limit to this? Would Trump's behavior actually cross it? Then what? Or if Trump is the threat many make him out to be (and I'd largely agree), are those people just going to move on to the importance of voting in 2022/2024? I'd say yes but that is in contradiction with the supposed threat Trump poses? I would vote for Trump in about 0.00004 seconds if he was running against someone I viewed as much less ethical. I don't think of myself as anything particularly special. My vote has no honor or something attached to it. I'm not proving anything to myself when I vote. I'm simply fulfilling my duty as a member of society. I'll make a fuss about better candidates and stuff first, but once the ballot arrived in my mailbox, time to fulfill my obligation. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45922 Posts
On September 18 2020 21:43 GreenHorizons wrote: I guess what I've been wondering lately is if Democrats have a limit to this? Would Trump's behavior actually cross it? Then what? Or if Trump is the threat many make him out to be (and I'd largely agree), are those people just going to move on to the importance of voting in 2022/2024? I'd say yes but that is in contradiction with the supposed threat Trump poses? Are you asking if Biden could potentially become so toxic (and Trump could stop being so toxic) towards women that it would end up being justifiable to vote for Trump over Biden, if all you cared about was the treatment of women? I feel like that hypothetical scenario isn't possible to occur within the next 50 days, to be honest. And I definitely do think that voters have tough decisions to make, especially when their party's candidate is not ideal for them. I think the primary is the best place for us to really scrutinize between similar candidates and pick our champion/representative for the general election, and the general election is the place where American voters need to get in line behind one of the two champions/representatives, because those are the only two that can win. I think primaries are where we can vote with both our head and our heart, but the general election is where we need to vote with our head. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
I also must point this out, but Democrats filibustered the 19th Amendment and only 20 voted in the affirmative with 36 Republicans doing so. Do you honestly believe Republicans today want to strip women of the vote? Seriously? There are a ton of women GOP Governors, Representatives, Senators, VP nominees (your favorite woman to bash Palin), etc. It's like you guys have never spent a moment with any significant # of Republicans and base your opinions on the most extreme minority. I'm not going to smear all Democrats with De Blasio / AOC (My whole family is Republican, I'm the only non-Republican; I grew up around other Republicans in majority Republican districts from the South to Mid-Atlantic areas). | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
Can't wait for the 2032 elections where becoming president of France will be decided based on which candidate calls the other candidate a pedophile the most  | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45922 Posts
On September 18 2020 22:28 Wegandi wrote: Can we get past calling someone anti-woman for holding a different view on abortion? 1. No. 2. Who was calling someone anti-woman just because of their view on abortion? If you're referring to anyone talking about Trump, I'm sure the inclusion of raping/assaulting/harassing countless women, and making completely inappropriate and misogynistic comments are included in his anti-woman assessment, rather than him only being against them having the right to bodily autonomy. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23954 Posts
On September 18 2020 22:24 Mohdoo wrote: I would vote for Trump in about 0.00004 seconds if he was running against someone I viewed as much less ethical. I don't think of myself as anything particularly special. My vote has no honor or something attached to it. I'm not proving anything to myself when I vote. I'm simply fulfilling my duty as a member of society. I'll make a fuss about better candidates and stuff first, but once the ballot arrived in my mailbox, time to fulfill my obligation. Just to be clear you're saying there is no floor for you? It's just vote for the lesser evil until the end? On September 18 2020 22:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Nope.Are you asking if Biden could potentially become so toxic (and Trump could stop being so toxic) towards women that it would end up being justifiable to vote for Trump over Biden, if all you cared about was the treatment of women?+ Show Spoiler + I feel like that hypothetical scenario isn't possible to occur within the next 50 days, to be honest. And I definitely do think that voters have tough decisions to make, especially when their party's candidate is not ideal for them. I think the primary is the best place for us to really scrutinize between similar candidates and pick our champion/representative for the general election, and the general election is the place where American voters need to get in line behind one of the two champions/representatives, because those are the only two that can win. I think primaries are where we can vote with both our head and our heart, but the general election is where we need to vote with our head. I'm basically asking if (someone as bad as they view) Trump was the lesser evil option, would that be bad enough to make people say "voting for Trump isn't good enough" or would they say "It's simple, he's the lesser of two evils so I'm voting for Trump!" | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
On September 18 2020 22:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: 1. No. 2. Who was calling someone anti-woman just because of their view on abortion? If you're referring to anyone talking about Trump, I'm sure the inclusion of raping/assaulting/harassing countless women, and making completely inappropriate and misogynistic comments are included in his anti-woman assessment, rather than him only being against them having the right to bodily autonomy. I could care less about Trump. You called folks anti-woman for holding different view on abortion and you think Republicans are anti-suffrage. That's hilarious. You live in a bubble that you hurl at the other side about echo chambers and living in fantasy. I'm sure you said really nice things about Palin, Kristi Noem, Nikki Haley, Margaret Thatcher, Alveda King, etc. I'm sure you're all gung-ho on Ayn Rand, Rose Wilder Lane, Jo Jorgenson, Isabel Paterson, Theodora Nathan, Lisa Kennedy, Mary Ruwart, etc. My point is both sides say some nasty shit about the other sides women. Vile. Can step off that high-horse at anytime. | ||
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