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Northern Ireland27130 Posts
Not sure where I stand on the intermingling of cultures vs appropriation of culture, ‘it’s a tricky one.
The Led Zeppelin one posted earlier, kinda clear to me anyway. Just lifting stuff from other black artists and not crediting them, something has been re-appropriated there.
Or the wearing of iconography that has religious or cultural significance to other groups as a fashion accessory (or producing such garments for that reason).
Taking other people’s work from another culture and passing it off as your own, while making the moolah that comes with being white and palatable to that market, pretty cut and dry I suppose.
Things like cuisine? Really not sure, I don’t really like food much beyond refuelling so not a topic I get too fussed about, will leave you guys to that one :p
As Biff said the wider food industry, it’s practices and the terrible nutritional standards that are pushed are much more pertinent issues, but also the central pillar from which mainstream bastardisation of various cuisines also comes from.
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On June 29 2020 21:36 Wombat_NI wrote:
Not sure where I stand on the intermingling of cultures vs appropriation of culture, ‘it’s a tricky one.
The Led Zeppelin one posted earlier, kinda clear to me anyway. Just lifting stuff from other black artists and not crediting them, something has been re-appropriated there.
Or the wearing of iconography that has religious or cultural significance to other groups as a fashion accessory (or producing such garments for that reason).
Taking other people’s work from another culture and passing it off as your own, while making the moolah that comes with being white and palatable to that market, pretty cut and dry I suppose.
Things like cuisine? Really not sure, I don’t really like food much beyond refuelling so not a topic I get too fussed about, will leave you guys to that one :p
As Biff said the wider food industry, it’s practices and the terrible nutritional standards that are pushed are much more pertinent issues, but also the central pillar from which mainstream bastardisation of various cuisines also comes from.
Isn't what Led Zeppelin did already captured under plagiarism? I guess if blues songs don't have an author then not... and is it then cultural appropriation if you add electric guitars? When is reinterpreting an existing song okay?
Obviously if Led Zeppelin was claiming they wrote those songs themselves then that is disingenuous. But is it worse than stealing folk songs and claiming they're original work?
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What I don't understand with the Led Zep example is that it seems to me that it would be exactly the same problem if they had copied, say, Country Music from white musicians. You don't take someone's music and pretend it's your own. Why is the fact that those were black artists a factor?
I assume I am missing part of the story, so really genuinely interested in the answer.
EDIT: ninja'ed by Acro :p
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I feel that food and art should be very different categories when talking about cultural appropriation. Taking somebody else's work, repackaging it for profit and not giving credit is clear cut. Re-inventing a dish because your customers have different tastes seems like plain common sense to me.
I'm always appalled as to what British people call 'traditional Spanish food', but not because I think it's cultural appropriation, but because it just tastes bad -- 'Pollo al ajillo' should most definitely not have barbeque sauce slathered all over it, but the brits like it, so you just have to avoid it.
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On June 29 2020 21:14 Uldridge wrote:
I think it's important to keep addressing what is acceptable and what isn't and why it is or isn't acceptable. It's what has been done for smoking and drinking and driving. Some time in the future people will generally accept the things as they are now as being wrong.
However, if the discussion is one inherently of shifting goal posts, how can you prevent it from becoming a slippery slope? Where does the discussion end? When things are truly equal? When things have been compensated for? How do you know things have equalized?
Agreed. The most simple/complex answer is "transcendence" a different one is "Communism as a doctrine and process, with a goal of becoming more fully human".
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On June 29 2020 21:52 EnDeR_ wrote:
I feel that food and art should be very different categories when talking about cultural appropriation. Taking somebody else's work, repackaging it for profit and not giving credit is clear cut. Re-inventing a dish because your customers have different tastes seems like plain common sense to me.
I'm always appalled as to what British people call 'traditional Spanish food', but not because I think it's cultural appropriation, but because it just tastes bad -- 'Pollo al ajillo' should most definitely not have barbeque sauce slathered all over it, but the brits like it, so you just have to avoid it.
I think taking someone else's music (that's plagiarism - and has nothing to do with cultural appropriation) and borrowing elements from other cultures' music for example are two radically different things.
I mean, obviously, if I perform a song by The Beatles and pretend it's mine, I am just stealing them. But is Igor Stravinsky using African rhythm in the Rite of Spring cultural appropriation? And Claude Debussy in his string quartet imitating Javanese gamelans? And Anton Dvorak using negro spirituals in his twelvth quartet? Or Ravel writing a blues in his violin sonata? I won't even start with Brahms, or Beethoven writing Polonaises, or movements "Alla Zingarese" borrowing from gipsy tunes.
I mean the whole of music history is made of composers taking folk songs, rhythm, harmonies from diverse cultures, and mixing them together.
Again, it seems to me like a huge misunderstanding about how culture works. Folk songs belong to humanity. That's what is great about art.
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On June 29 2020 21:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
Agreed. The most simple/complex answer is "transcendence" a different one is "Communism as a doctrine and process, with a goal of becoming more fully human".
Have you ever read/heard about the concept of posthumanism? It's actually very interesting to delve into it and relate it with current emerging phenomema.
Its basic premise is we have a need to stop thinking in dualities and put everything in the center, only then we'll evolve our way we form our society.
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On June 29 2020 22:08 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 21:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
Agreed. The most simple/complex answer is "transcendence" a different one is "Communism as a doctrine and process, with a goal of becoming more fully human". Have you ever read/heard about the concept of posthumanism? It's actually very interesting to delve into it and relate it with current emerging phenomema. Its basic premise is we have a need to stop thinking in dualities and put everything in the center, only then we'll evolve our way we form our society.
Little bit after watching Orphan Black (highly underrated show, even more so lead actress in that roll/s imo). I think it's good for our political imagination to engage with stuff like that but that's also where my revolutionary optimism wanes. While I'm often accused of being overly idealistic or engaging in political fantasy with my head in the clouds, even I have my limits, and a couple days of arguing with fellow commoners about shit like whether Breonna Taylor's killers should be arrested or watching Democrat leaders butcher/forget George Floyd's name with shit eating grins on their face after their Kente cloth stunt and you get yanked back to earth pretty quick.
EDIT: Checked the ratings, those are actually pretty fair, I guess "underacclaimed or appreciated by society at large" might be more accurate. Seems too good for me to be the only person that gets my references to it at parties basically.
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I think it's a big mistake to assume that there is any such thing as authenticity. Look at how food has changed in the US in the last 50 years. Do you know what the baby boomers were eating? Garbage. Why Americans tend to think that food supply chains and corporate food makers have only affected what Americans actually prepare and eat in America is beyond me. Mexican food has only a vague resemblance to what it was 100 or 300 years ago, so talking about an "authentic tortilla" is kind of silly to me when the very corn itself in Chihuahua or wherever has changed in the last 50 years. All we have is a fantastic genetic lineage that we reconstruct and represent to ourselves. Food dishes are one of the best metonyms for Derridean iterability because it is so obvious that the ingredients are the "same" but "different" every time.
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On June 29 2020 23:01 IgnE wrote:
I think it's a big mistake to assume that there is such any such thing as authenticity. Look at how food has changed in the US in the last 50 years. Do you know what the baby boomers were eating? Garbage. Why Americans tend to think that food supply chains and corporate food makers have only affected what Americans actually prepare and eat in America is beyond me. Mexican food has only a vague resemblance to what it was 100 or 300 years ago, so talking about an "authentic tortilla" is kind of silly to me when the very corn itself in Chihuahua or wherever has changed in the last 50 years. All we have is a fantastic genetic lineage that we reconstruct and represent to ourselves. Food dishes are one of the best metonyms for Derridean iterability because it is so obvious that the ingredients are the "same" but "different" every time.
I really wish you used your massive brainpower to repeatedly deconstruct whiteness for the people that desperately need it instead of trying to convince marginalized minorities that they would be better off deferring their politics for class reductionism. It's particularly frustrating because unlike a lot of the other discussions which have a silent audience which enjoys them, no one else has any idea what you're doing besides maybe farv. Which, with my luck, your arguments are influencing.
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Chief Justice Roberts pulled off another of his trademark pro-gamer moves and sided with the liberals today in striking down a highly restrictive Louisiana anti-abortion law.
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On June 29 2020 23:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 23:01 IgnE wrote:
I think it's a big mistake to assume that there is such any such thing as authenticity. Look at how food has changed in the US in the last 50 years. Do you know what the baby boomers were eating? Garbage. Why Americans tend to think that food supply chains and corporate food makers have only affected what Americans actually prepare and eat in America is beyond me. Mexican food has only a vague resemblance to what it was 100 or 300 years ago, so talking about an "authentic tortilla" is kind of silly to me when the very corn itself in Chihuahua or wherever has changed in the last 50 years. All we have is a fantastic genetic lineage that we reconstruct and represent to ourselves. Food dishes are one of the best metonyms for Derridean iterability because it is so obvious that the ingredients are the "same" but "different" every time. I really wish you used your massive brainpower to repeatedly deconstruct whiteness for the people that desperately need it instead of trying to convince marginalized minorities that they would be better off deferring their politics for class reductionism. It's particularly frustrating because unlike a lot of the other discussions which have a silent audience which enjoys them, no one else has any idea what you're doing besides maybe farv. Which, with my luck, your arguments are influencing.
You'd have to point me to where I was convincing marginalized minorities that they should be class reductionist so I can refresh my memory.
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On June 29 2020 23:01 IgnE wrote:
I think it's a big mistake to assume that there is any such thing as authenticity. Look at how food has changed in the US in the last 50 years. Do you know what the baby boomers were eating? Garbage. Why Americans tend to think that food supply chains and corporate food makers have only affected what Americans actually prepare and eat in America is beyond me. Mexican food has only a vague resemblance to what it was 100 or 300 years ago, so talking about an "authentic tortilla" is kind of silly to me when the very corn itself in Chihuahua or wherever has changed in the last 50 years. All we have is a fantastic genetic lineage that we reconstruct and represent to ourselves. Food dishes are one of the best metonyms for Derridean iterability because it is so obvious that the ingredients are the "same" but "different" every time.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but isn’t it pretty easy to imagine inauthenticity though? Almost everyone would look at a pizza made from a corn tortilla, ketchup, and spam and say it’s not *really* a pizza. Doesn’t the existence of inauthenticity imply that authenticity does exist in some sense, even if it’s frustratingly hazy to define?
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On June 29 2020 22:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 21:52 EnDeR_ wrote:
I feel that food and art should be very different categories when talking about cultural appropriation. Taking somebody else's work, repackaging it for profit and not giving credit is clear cut. Re-inventing a dish because your customers have different tastes seems like plain common sense to me.
I'm always appalled as to what British people call 'traditional Spanish food', but not because I think it's cultural appropriation, but because it just tastes bad -- 'Pollo al ajillo' should most definitely not have barbeque sauce slathered all over it, but the brits like it, so you just have to avoid it. I think taking someone else's music (that's plagiarism - and has nothing to do with cultural appropriation) and borrowing elements from other cultures' music for example are two radically different things. I mean, obviously, if I perform a song by The Beatles and pretend it's mine, I am just stealing them. But is Igor Stravinsky using African rhythm in the Rite of Spring cultural appropriation? And Claude Debussy in his string quartet imitating Javanese gamelans? And Anton Dvorak using negro spirituals in his twelvth quartet? Or Ravel writing a blues in his violin sonata? I won't even start with Brahms, or Beethoven writing Polonaises, or movements "Alla Zingarese" borrowing from gipsy tunes. I mean the whole of music history is made of composers taking folk songs, rhythm, harmonies from diverse cultures, and mixing them together. Again, it seems to me like a huge misunderstanding about how culture works. Folk songs belong to humanity. That's what is great about art.
So would you say that plagiarism is exactly the same when its a white band stealing songs from white people, as it is when white people steal songs made by black people specifically as a reaction to their enslavement by white people?
Because personally I think that's plagiarism with a little something extra, no?
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you're not talking about culture appropriation but about culture commodification or, the mercantilization of culture.
appropriation is taking elements from one culture then use them outside their original/intended context.
food is food, the context is always - to be eaten; mercantilism changes that.
still, there are always ™trademarks to pin foods to a location; those should be protected.
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The Mississippi flag will be changed after 126 years of having the confederate flag as part of it. I'm looking forward to the new design. I hope they make the designs public or make it an open competition. I can imagine the submissions now.
Lawmakers in Mississippi voted to remove the Confederate battle emblem from the state flag on Sunday, clearing the way for Republican Gov. Tate Reeves to sign the measure into law.
The state House and Senate both approved legislation to remove the 126-year-old current flag and to form a commission to redesign it.
"Today we and the rest of the nation can look on our state with new eyes, with pride and hope," House Speaker Philip Gunn said following the House vote, according to the Mississippi Clarion-Ledger.
Sunday's passage was expected following a procedural vote on Saturday.
The bill now goes to the governor, who has said he would sign the legislation but has not immediately set a date for the signing.
He made the pledge on Saturday in a Facebook post.
"The argument over the 1894 flag has become as divisive as the flag itself and it's time to end it," Reeves wrote. "If they send me a bill this weekend, I will sign it."
Reeves had long opposed the idea of changing the state symbol, which bears the Confederate battle flag at the top left corner, unless it was voted on by Mississippians. In 2001, voters in the state had just that chance, but they ultimately voted to keep the flag as it was designed.
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On June 29 2020 23:45 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 22:03 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 29 2020 21:52 EnDeR_ wrote:
I feel that food and art should be very different categories when talking about cultural appropriation. Taking somebody else's work, repackaging it for profit and not giving credit is clear cut. Re-inventing a dish because your customers have different tastes seems like plain common sense to me.
I'm always appalled as to what British people call 'traditional Spanish food', but not because I think it's cultural appropriation, but because it just tastes bad -- 'Pollo al ajillo' should most definitely not have barbeque sauce slathered all over it, but the brits like it, so you just have to avoid it. I think taking someone else's music (that's plagiarism - and has nothing to do with cultural appropriation) and borrowing elements from other cultures' music for example are two radically different things. I mean, obviously, if I perform a song by The Beatles and pretend it's mine, I am just stealing them. But is Igor Stravinsky using African rhythm in the Rite of Spring cultural appropriation? And Claude Debussy in his string quartet imitating Javanese gamelans? And Anton Dvorak using negro spirituals in his twelvth quartet? Or Ravel writing a blues in his violin sonata? I won't even start with Brahms, or Beethoven writing Polonaises, or movements "Alla Zingarese" borrowing from gipsy tunes. I mean the whole of music history is made of composers taking folk songs, rhythm, harmonies from diverse cultures, and mixing them together. Again, it seems to me like a huge misunderstanding about how culture works. Folk songs belong to humanity. That's what is great about art. So would you say that plagiarism is exactly the same when its a white band stealing songs from white people, as it is when white people steal songs made by black people specifically as a reaction to their enslavement by white people? Because personally I think that's plagiarism with a little something extra, no?
So all bad acts by white people perpetrated onto black people are for perpetuity "worse because slavery". No. Slavery happened, it was bad. We are still dealing with the consequences at a systemic level. That doesn't make a white guy stealing stuff from a black guy right now worse than a white guy stealing stuff from another white guy. Plagiarism is plagiarism. Not plagiarism "with something extra" because someone's ancestor was also a bad person.
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EPT
