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It's alien because it doesn't make sense. Kap went to an actual veteran to ask what the best, most respectful way to protest was, and did that. Then Trump calls him a son of a bitch, and Danglars insinuates in very roundabout language that it actually disrespects it in a fundamental way because he and other conservatives said so. Up is down, hot is cold, right is wrong, etc.
The common denominator is the color of the person's skin, and the fact that people had to see it. The rest is smoke and mirrors.
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On June 04 2020 08:49 Starlightsun wrote:
It's weird how our flag has become almost a quasi religious symbol. I remember as a kid if you did flag duty (putting it up on the pole) you were told it must NEVER touch the ground. And of course we recited our pledge of allegiance to it each morning. I never questioned it as a child, and it seems some people never do even as adults.
The funny thing is that if it were actually treated as an actual revered symbol, then I could understand and respect the complaints even. In hindsight I am not sure if that is actually the case with Danglars, I am giving him the benefit of doubt as he has explained his reasoning in detail.
The reason why I can’t accept his reasoning is that the same people complaining about Kaep taking a knee are the same people who have wrapped their pickup trucks with the American flag, wear American flag swimwear and respond with aggression when you tell them about the flag code. You’re absolutely right it’s a religious symbol at this point because people are picking and choosing aspects that they like and are ignoring the aspects they don’t like.
It’s hard to accept Danglars’ reasoning when it is clear that the majority of people who have problems with the kneeling don’t really have any respect for the flag and just want the black man to shut up and keep politics out of their football game. They might not say the former loudly but the sure do say the latter loudly whenever a black man says anything about police brutality after the football game.
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Danglars, as a son of a Vietnam war vet, and mind you all of my family has been in the US military except for me all agree that kneeling is a great way to protest. If you disagree that’s your choice, but you can’t tell some one else how they should protest. That’s only your opinion, would you like it if I told you you can’t buy a US flag because you’re not going to represent it well?
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On June 04 2020 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. If the flag represents a set of ideals that may not be achieved currently, then surely it makes sense for a peaceful and respectful protest to remind people that those ideals have not been achieved and that everyone should continue to work towards those ideals?
Once again, protesting the flag itself means there is no uniting ideal even to work towards. No ideal of rights worth better protecting among all people, with an army defending their restriction by foreign conquest, and a police from domestic unlawful transgression. And honestly, if you think there is no worthwhile uniting pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, then tear that flag apart and let's break up the nation.
It's perfectly natural to view the flag as the unifying declaration, imperfectly followed, and the current protests (such that there's a large peaceful contingent) as the means to achieve closer adherence to those principles. There's no point saying the police are hindering the right to peaceful assembly if you don't believe in the nation that has it in the constitution via amendment.
I want to be very inclusive here. If you think the constitution and what's enshrined in there needs to be taken down violently, and this country or several countries should be founded with a new set of aspirations, then the flag is exactly what you should target to get that message across to more groups. Give your design for a new flag.
Maybe the people that recognize my point here can move on because this is getting to be kinda a digression, and mods have historically disfavored that kind of thing. You can still agree with me, and want to change this perception of the flag to fit your conception of what it should represent, as long as you can see how people like Brees are being perfectly self-consistent from their group view of the symbol.
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On June 04 2020 09:36 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. If the flag represents a set of ideals that may not be achieved currently, then surely it makes sense for a peaceful and respectful protest to remind people that those ideals have not been achieved and that everyone should continue to work towards those ideals? Once again, protesting the flag itself means there is no uniting ideal even to work towards. No ideal of rights worth better protecting among all people, with an army defending their restriction by foreign conquest, and a police from domestic unlawful transgression. And honestly, if you think there is no worthwhile uniting pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, then tear that flag apart and let's break up the nation. It's perfectly natural to view the flag as the unifying declaration, imperfectly followed, and the current protests (such that there's a large peaceful contingent) as the means to achieve closer adherence to those principles. There's no point saying the police are hindering the right to peaceful assembly if you don't believe in the nation that has it in the constitution via amendment. I want to be very inclusive here. If you think the constitution and what's enshrined in there needs to be taken down violently, and this country or several countries should be founded with a new set of aspirations, then the flag is exactly what you should target to get that message across to more groups. Give your design for a new flag. Maybe the people that recognize my point here can move on because this is getting to be kinda a digression, and mods have historically disfavored that kind of thing. You can still agree with me, and want to change this perception of the flag to fit your conception of what it should represent, as long as you can see how people like Brees are being perfectly self-consistent from their group view of the symbol.
This entire post sounds like a kid with his hands over his ears screaming "LALALALALALA" and repeating the same nonsense over and over because they don't want to hear what other people are saying.
your reverence for the flag impedes your mind from understanding most of anything that has been said because it directly contradicts your point with the truth of the matter. The flag is a piece of cloth. It holds no power. It is a symbol and that symbol has lost what it once stood for.
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On June 04 2020 09:36 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. If the flag represents a set of ideals that may not be achieved currently, then surely it makes sense for a peaceful and respectful protest to remind people that those ideals have not been achieved and that everyone should continue to work towards those ideals? Once again, protesting the flag itself means + Show Spoiler [...] +there is no uniting ideal even to work towards. No ideal of rights worth better protecting among all people, with an army defending their restriction by foreign conquest, and a police from domestic unlawful transgression. And honestly, if you think there is no worthwhile uniting pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, then tear that flag apart and let's break up the nation.
It's perfectly natural to view the flag as the unifying declaration, imperfectly followed, and the current protests (such that there's a large peaceful contingent) as the means to achieve closer adherence to those principles. There's no point saying the police are hindering the right to peaceful assembly if you don't believe in the nation that has it in the constitution via amendment.
I want to be very inclusive here. If you think the constitution and what's enshrined in there needs to be taken down violently, and this country or several countries should be founded with a new set of aspirations, then the flag is exactly what you should target to get that message across to more groups. Give your design for a new flag.
Maybe the people that recognize my point here can move on because this is getting to be kinda a digression, and mods have historically disfavored that kind of thing. You can still agree with me, and want to change this perception of the flag to fit your conception of what it should represent, as long as you can see how people like Brees are being perfectly self-consistent from their group view of the symbol.
I realize you’re replying to a million people at once, but genuine question: why do you get to decide what it means? I believe in ideals like civil rights, due process, and rule of law. I also believe those ideals are being devastated by the way our criminal justice system treats people of color. The whole point of the kneeling thing was to draw attention to that devastation, in pursuit of better achieving those ideals.
Frankly, conservatives have a long history of dismissing their opposition as unpatriotic, and this just feels like yet another instance of that.
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On June 04 2020 09:50 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 09:36 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. If the flag represents a set of ideals that may not be achieved currently, then surely it makes sense for a peaceful and respectful protest to remind people that those ideals have not been achieved and that everyone should continue to work towards those ideals? Once again, protesting the flag itself means + Show Spoiler [...] +there is no uniting ideal even to work towards. No ideal of rights worth better protecting among all people, with an army defending their restriction by foreign conquest, and a police from domestic unlawful transgression. And honestly, if you think there is no worthwhile uniting pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, then tear that flag apart and let's break up the nation.
It's perfectly natural to view the flag as the unifying declaration, imperfectly followed, and the current protests (such that there's a large peaceful contingent) as the means to achieve closer adherence to those principles. There's no point saying the police are hindering the right to peaceful assembly if you don't believe in the nation that has it in the constitution via amendment.
I want to be very inclusive here. If you think the constitution and what's enshrined in there needs to be taken down violently, and this country or several countries should be founded with a new set of aspirations, then the flag is exactly what you should target to get that message across to more groups. Give your design for a new flag.
Maybe the people that recognize my point here can move on because this is getting to be kinda a digression, and mods have historically disfavored that kind of thing. You can still agree with me, and want to change this perception of the flag to fit your conception of what it should represent, as long as you can see how people like Brees are being perfectly self-consistent from their group view of the symbol. I realize you’re replying to a million people at once, but genuine question: why do you get to decide what it means? I believe in ideals like civil rights, due process, and rule of law. I also believe those ideals are being devastated by the way our criminal justice system treats people of color. The whole point of the kneeling thing was to draw attention to that devastation, in pursuit of better achieving those ideals. Frankly, conservatives have a long history of dismissing their opposition as unpatriotic, and this just feels like yet another instance of that.
If this was a little more of a nuanced topic, it would be how the conversation between how two groups do a cultural dialogue on what each thinks the other means. If we pretended Drew Brees was a major cultural icon, then more people in the BLM movement might come to see that showing respect to the flag and backing peaceful protests are not at all in conflict, and they learn more about the other meaning. In turn, maybe while not approving of the protest, the group all about the aspirational aspect of the flag are less viscerally pissed off at the kneeling protests, because they view it differently. But in terms of the communication dimension, it isn't like Kaepernick is using his protest to speak towards people that already think the flag symbolizes oppression or unequal society ... or it isn't his primary audience. His speech is on a symbol towards the people that think it's the ultimate symbol of unity and an ideal worth striving towards (im generalizing a little bit to make the point). In which case, the message comes out "There is nothing in America or being American that is uniting, no set of ideals in its founding document which might be worth working towards."
The first point straight-up needs to be understood if you ever dream of changing America. It's kind of a heated time right now, so I understand a lot of this anger directed at people and groups that don't think like them. It's high tide of the culture war, that some people pretended didn't exist during the Obama years, and think can be solved if only Trump were never elected.
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On June 04 2020 08:55 NewSunshine wrote:
It's alien because it doesn't make sense. Kap went to an actual veteran to ask what the best, most respectful way to protest was, and did that. Then Trump calls him a son of a bitch, and Danglars insinuates in very roundabout language that it actually disrespects it in a fundamental way because he and other conservatives said so. Up is down, hot is cold, right is wrong, etc.
The common denominator is the color of the person's skin, and the fact that people had to see it. The rest is smoke and mirrors.
Did he? I didn't know that part. A veteran came up with kneeling for the anthem? Clever guy.
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On June 04 2020 09:50 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 09:36 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. If the flag represents a set of ideals that may not be achieved currently, then surely it makes sense for a peaceful and respectful protest to remind people that those ideals have not been achieved and that everyone should continue to work towards those ideals? Once again, protesting the flag itself means + Show Spoiler [...] +there is no uniting ideal even to work towards. No ideal of rights worth better protecting among all people, with an army defending their restriction by foreign conquest, and a police from domestic unlawful transgression. And honestly, if you think there is no worthwhile uniting pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, then tear that flag apart and let's break up the nation.
It's perfectly natural to view the flag as the unifying declaration, imperfectly followed, and the current protests (such that there's a large peaceful contingent) as the means to achieve closer adherence to those principles. There's no point saying the police are hindering the right to peaceful assembly if you don't believe in the nation that has it in the constitution via amendment.
I want to be very inclusive here. If you think the constitution and what's enshrined in there needs to be taken down violently, and this country or several countries should be founded with a new set of aspirations, then the flag is exactly what you should target to get that message across to more groups. Give your design for a new flag.
Maybe the people that recognize my point here can move on because this is getting to be kinda a digression, and mods have historically disfavored that kind of thing. You can still agree with me, and want to change this perception of the flag to fit your conception of what it should represent, as long as you can see how people like Brees are being perfectly self-consistent from their group view of the symbol. I realize you’re replying to a million people at once, but genuine question: why do you get to decide what it means? I believe in ideals like civil rights, due process, and rule of law. I also believe those ideals are being devastated by the way our criminal justice system treats people of color. The whole point of the kneeling thing was to draw attention to that devastation, in pursuit of better achieving those ideals. Frankly, conservatives have a long history of dismissing their opposition as unpatriotic, and this just feels like yet another instance of that.
That's why this "debate" was always a farce, imo. You can never tell someone else what they're really protesting for. It's gaslighting, and insulting to a degree that should never have been tolerated. Conservatives imagined a reason for protesting that was quasi-acceptable to object to, and projected that onto the people protesting. Not how it works.
They are objecting to something on a rather consistent basis, but they can't say what it is out loud.
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On June 04 2020 10:09 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:55 NewSunshine wrote:
It's alien because it doesn't make sense. Kap went to an actual veteran to ask what the best, most respectful way to protest was, and did that. Then Trump calls him a son of a bitch, and Danglars insinuates in very roundabout language that it actually disrespects it in a fundamental way because he and other conservatives said so. Up is down, hot is cold, right is wrong, etc.
The common denominator is the color of the person's skin, and the fact that people had to see it. The rest is smoke and mirrors. Did he? I didn't know that part. A veteran came up with kneeling for the anthem? Clever guy.
Initially Kaepernick was sitting for it, which the veteran thought was much more disrespectful than kneeling. Kaepernick also did it for a few weeks before anyone even noticed and asked him about it.
So, Floyd's autopsy has been released. There's gonna be some NASTY commentary out there soon.
(He was covid positive, though likely asymptomatic as he got it on 4/3, and tested positive for fentanyl, meth, norfentanyl, and weed. It really doesn't change anything, in my opinion. Maybe he needed rehab, but he didn't deserve to die).
(For the curious/morbid):
lawandcrime.com
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On June 04 2020 08:29 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. I think I understand better. You are saying there is an aspiration portion of the country that goes beyond the government. When all 3 branches each individually fail to uphold a a crucial component of the social contract between a citizen and the government, it does not impact the flag? There is an immortal part of the country that isn't impacted by current policy? If you believe in the social contract being violated, the flag is whether or not you think it was even a worthwhile social contract in the first place. It implicitly signals belief in that contract if fulfilled, so that's a crucial part. You can see Frederick Douglass go from panning the US Constitution to embracing it as anti-slavery in his earlier to later writings. And it doesn't need to be said that that society wasn't really fulfilling it's promises.
I can understand that, but when I think how long this has been going on, I think that expires. Civil rights act was 1968 and here we are today. Whatever the flag is supposed to represent, that meaning has not impacted our government. It is hard to argue it still represents that. Where we disagree is to what extent the supposed morals that the flag represents still exist. I think that ship sailed a long time ago. But I understand your belief better now.
Also, if the flag does represent that, I think it would include the right to also protest the flag itself.
I do value hearing other opinions on these things. We disagree on this. I do think there's room to respectfully disagree, and I hope this country doesn't arrive at a mode of "if you don't change your opinion to conform with mine, you never really listened/understood/empathized."
On June 04 2020 09:14 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Danglars, as a son of a Vietnam war vet, and mind you all of my family has been in the US military except for me all agree that kneeling is a great way to protest. If you disagree that’s your choice, but you can’t tell some one else how they should protest. That’s only your opinion, would you like it if I told you you can’t buy a US flag because you’re not going to represent it well?
I don't even tell people wielding Confederate Flags that they aren't allowed to protest that way, and I don't think burning the flag should be a crime. The flag stands for the freedom to buy things generally for sale to the public, so I don't exactly like you telling me that I can't buy one.
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On June 04 2020 10:09 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:55 NewSunshine wrote:
It's alien because it doesn't make sense. Kap went to an actual veteran to ask what the best, most respectful way to protest was, and did that. Then Trump calls him a son of a bitch, and Danglars insinuates in very roundabout language that it actually disrespects it in a fundamental way because he and other conservatives said so. Up is down, hot is cold, right is wrong, etc.
The common denominator is the color of the person's skin, and the fact that people had to see it. The rest is smoke and mirrors. Did he? I didn't know that part. A veteran came up with kneeling for the anthem? Clever guy.
Found a good source that mentions it after some digging, but yes is the short answer.
"So you probably know all this, but what you might not know is why Kaepernick started kneeling to begin with as opposed to something else, and that's where Nate Boyer comes in. He's a former active-duty Green Beret who had a stint in the NFL with the Seattle Seahawks. He initially advised Kaepernick to take a knee instead of sitting down during the anthem as a sign of respect."
https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee
You literally could not have found someone protesting in a more reasonably thought-out, peaceful, respectful manner. So they made it about something else.
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On June 04 2020 10:16 Nevuk wrote:So, Floyd's autopsy has been released. There's gonna be some NASTY commentary out there soon. (He was covid positive, though likely asymptomatic as he got it on 4/3, and tested positive for fentanyl, meth, norfentanyl, and weed. It really doesn't change anything, in my opinion. Maybe he needed rehab, but he didn't deserve to die). (For the curious/morbid): lawandcrime.com
I feel exhausted thinking of the Republican squeals of vindication and glee regarding the drugs. I wonder does this affect the prosecution of the officer.
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Unless the drugs make for a gravity-like force that only attracts kneecaps, nope.
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If you listen to some of the Republicans I've heard on the subject, it kind of does.
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On June 04 2020 10:08 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 09:50 ChristianS wrote:On June 04 2020 09:36 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:
[quote]
I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. If the flag represents a set of ideals that may not be achieved currently, then surely it makes sense for a peaceful and respectful protest to remind people that those ideals have not been achieved and that everyone should continue to work towards those ideals? Once again, protesting the flag itself means + Show Spoiler [...] +there is no uniting ideal even to work towards. No ideal of rights worth better protecting among all people, with an army defending their restriction by foreign conquest, and a police from domestic unlawful transgression. And honestly, if you think there is no worthwhile uniting pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, then tear that flag apart and let's break up the nation.
It's perfectly natural to view the flag as the unifying declaration, imperfectly followed, and the current protests (such that there's a large peaceful contingent) as the means to achieve closer adherence to those principles. There's no point saying the police are hindering the right to peaceful assembly if you don't believe in the nation that has it in the constitution via amendment.
I want to be very inclusive here. If you think the constitution and what's enshrined in there needs to be taken down violently, and this country or several countries should be founded with a new set of aspirations, then the flag is exactly what you should target to get that message across to more groups. Give your design for a new flag.
Maybe the people that recognize my point here can move on because this is getting to be kinda a digression, and mods have historically disfavored that kind of thing. You can still agree with me, and want to change this perception of the flag to fit your conception of what it should represent, as long as you can see how people like Brees are being perfectly self-consistent from their group view of the symbol. I realize you’re replying to a million people at once, but genuine question: why do you get to decide what it means? I believe in ideals like civil rights, due process, and rule of law. I also believe those ideals are being devastated by the way our criminal justice system treats people of color. The whole point of the kneeling thing was to draw attention to that devastation, in pursuit of better achieving those ideals. Frankly, conservatives have a long history of dismissing their opposition as unpatriotic, and this just feels like yet another instance of that. If this was a little more of a nuanced topic, it would be how the conversation between how two groups do a cultural dialogue on what each thinks the other means. If we pretended Drew Brees was a major cultural icon, then more people in the BLM movement might come to see that showing respect to the flag and backing peaceful protests are not at all in conflict, and they learn more about the other meaning. In turn, maybe while not approving of the protest, the group all about the aspirational aspect of the flag are less viscerally pissed off at the kneeling protests, because they view it differently. But in terms of the communication dimension, it isn't like Kaepernick is using his protest to speak towards people that already think the flag symbolizes oppression or unequal society ... or it isn't his primary audience. His speech is on a symbol towards the people that think it's the ultimate symbol of unity and an ideal worth striving towards (im generalizing a little bit to make the point). In which case, the message comes out "There is nothing in America or being American that is uniting, no set of ideals in its founding document which might be worth working towards." The first point straight-up needs to be understood if you ever dream of changing America. It's kind of a heated time right now, so I understand a lot of this anger directed at people and groups that don't think like them. It's high tide of the culture war, that some people pretended didn't exist during the Obama years, and think can be solved if only Trump were never elected.
But you’re still doing it! Saying BLM should learn respecting the flag doesn’t conflict with their protest is indirectly saying that kneeling was *meant to disrespect the flag*. They didn’t think so! Kneeling isn’t exactly a disrespectful gesture. It was just a nonstandard response to the flag and anthem, meant to draw attention to some widespread and often-ignored violations of the ideals that flag represents.
Not to mention there were plenty of attempts to modify the protest to avoid offending people. It didn’t matter. The backlash was rooted in some combination of a) filthy liberals hate America, no matter what they say or do, and b) celebrities should stop interrupting my sports with politics. Given the gravity of the issue being protested, I really don’t think the refusal to acknowledge that issue while hating Kaepernick with a passion for trying to bring it up can be chalked up to communication issues.
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Another email from my mom from the heart of uptown Minneapolis.
We lost an affordable income apartment that was under construction. We lost an important community organization for Indians and there are now no grocery stores or pharmacies in the neighborhood that was hit worst. Poor people can’t get food or medicine or Medical care.
I support the protests. Strongly, strongly. I am personally writing to call for disbanding this police department. But the arson terrifies me and has devastated our people, our immigrants and our people of color and our low income communities.
Some of those folks are my dear patients, who I treat like family, and now they can’t even buy food.
Mom
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And another
This was primarily not caused by protesters. Other destructive organizations, suspected white supremacists and anarchists are doing the worst damage of arson.
Some other group seems to be running an organized raid on pharmacies, even as far as Maple Grove. They are not protesters. They are taking advantage of the chaos. One crazy white guy drove up from Wisconsin just to riot and was handing out fire bombs. Thank God they caught him.
Why would a protester want to be associated with that crowd?
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Here is our post office. Why would a protester want to deny a community its mail? Or the ability to send money overseas to families in 3rd world countries?
https://postimg.cc/gallery/5b3k3w5
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Mattis denouncing Trump is huge. This alone will really hurt the military faith in Trump
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EPT
