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On June 04 2020 08:49 Starlightsun wrote:
It's weird how our flag has become almost a quasi religious symbol. I remember as a kid if you did flag duty (putting it up on the pole) you were told it must NEVER touch the ground. And of course we recited our pledge of allegiance to it each morning. I never questioned it as a child, and it seems some people never do even as adults.
Thinking about it more, the pledge of allegiance is first "to the flag", and only afterwards "to the republic for which it stands". Odd.
I have always found these flag rallies to be really creepy and weird. Do they happen in any other countries except the US? Because the last time we had them in Germany was in '45.
Regarding the military and protests. How can people be in favor of that? Using the military in the interior of the country against its citizens is very, very scary. That is how you get military coups and dictatorships. The military should be a strict "outside the country" and defense force.
No matter what happened in Germany, i wouldn't want the military on the streets here. (Except disaster relief, it is totally reasonable to have the military help when there is flooding or something like that)
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On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)?
"Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election.
"Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption.
"Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does.
Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate.
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On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate.
Quite hard to know if you are serious.
All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here.
The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it.
I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end.
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On June 04 2020 17:00 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:49 Starlightsun wrote:
It's weird how our flag has become almost a quasi religious symbol. I remember as a kid if you did flag duty (putting it up on the pole) you were told it must NEVER touch the ground. And of course we recited our pledge of allegiance to it each morning. I never questioned it as a child, and it seems some people never do even as adults.
Thinking about it more, the pledge of allegiance is first "to the flag", and only afterwards "to the republic for which it stands". Odd. I have always found these flag rallies to be really creepy and weird. Do they happen in any other countries except the US? Because the last time we had them in Germany was in '45. Regarding the military and protests. How can people be in favor of that? Using the military in the interior of the country against its citizens is very, very scary. That is how you get military coups and dictatorships. The military should be a strict "outside the country" and defense force. No matter what happened in Germany, i wouldn't want the military on the streets here. (Except disaster relief, it is totally reasonable to have the military help when there is flooding or something like that)
I think there is a strong flag fetishization as a symbol in the US. A lot of people care massively about it. During elementry and middle school we were expected to face the flag, put a hand on our hearts, and pledge allegiance to it every morning.
When I was a kid I stopped saluting during the middle east invasions in the early 2000's. My teacher went batshit. It has incredible significance to some Americans.
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On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end.
All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics.
There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality.
I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards.
Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless.
I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration.
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On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration.
I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now.
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On June 04 2020 09:36 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. If the flag represents a set of ideals that may not be achieved currently, then surely it makes sense for a peaceful and respectful protest to remind people that those ideals have not been achieved and that everyone should continue to work towards those ideals? Once again, protesting the flag itself means there is no uniting ideal even to work towards. No ideal of rights worth better protecting among all people, with an army defending their restriction by foreign conquest, and a police from domestic unlawful transgression. And honestly, if you think there is no worthwhile uniting pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, then tear that flag apart and let's break up the nation. It's perfectly natural to view the flag as the unifying declaration, imperfectly followed, and the current protests (such that there's a large peaceful contingent) as the means to achieve closer adherence to those principles. There's no point saying the police are hindering the right to peaceful assembly if you don't believe in the nation that has it in the constitution via amendment. I want to be very inclusive here. If you think the constitution and what's enshrined in there needs to be taken down violently, and this country or several countries should be founded with a new set of aspirations, then the flag is exactly what you should target to get that message across to more groups. Give your design for a new flag. Maybe the people that recognize my point here can move on because this is getting to be kinda a digression, and mods have historically disfavored that kind of thing. You can still agree with me, and want to change this perception of the flag to fit your conception of what it should represent, as long as you can see how people like Brees are being perfectly self-consistent from their group view of the symbol. This is where my understanding hits a brick wall. Why is it so black and white?
Why does drawing attention to the principles that America stands for and that the country currently can do better to follow them immediately mean we should tear up the flag and break up the country?
It's perfectly natural to view the flag as the unifying declaration, imperfectly followed, and the current protests (such that there's a large peaceful contingent) as the means to achieve closer adherence to those principles. There's no point saying the police are hindering the right to peaceful assembly if you don't believe in the nation that has it in the constitution via amendment. Yes these people view the flag as a unifying declaration. the whole "one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
But as you say it is imperfectly followed, it isn't liberty and justice for all. So they kneel to draw attention that this unifying declaration isn't being followed. That America can do better.
But how do you jump from that to saying they don't believe in the constitution?
We both seem to understand what the flag stands for and that its not being followed enough so why does drawing attention to that with a respectful gesture like kneeling suddenly mean you hate America and all it stands for?
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On June 04 2020 18:52 Sr18 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration. I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now.
It's pretty much impossible for someone to say "Blue/white Lives Matter" on the internet and have not been explained that a dozen different ways at this point. Like the flag thing, it's not about the flag or them equally valuing all lives, It's about maintaining white supremacy.
If the people that said all lives matter actually believed it, we wouldn't be in this situation.
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On June 04 2020 18:52 Sr18 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration. I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now.
First of all, I don't know why this has to be a white vs black thing. There are other groups in the country and nobody is spared from the problem.
Second of all -You're correct - BLM doesn't say black lives are above white lives. Here is what they do believe, though:
"We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people."
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
They are putting blacks above others in the discussion of police brutality. I do not believe in their philosophy. I do not believe that fighting only for black people by extension helps all people. This is the same group that bullied Bernie Sanders, we are talking a man who protested on the streets for black people when things were very bad for them, for saying "all lives matter." I do not believe in aggressively ignoring everyone else under the assumption that "things will simply just get better for them too." It leads to marginalization. For example, you will NEVER hear about police brutality against Native Americans, who suffer from police brutality at a rate higher than every single other race in the country, including blacks. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/native-lives-matter/index.html
The idea that working ONLY for justice for black people leads to justice for everyone is a baseless assumption.
As for "it's not the focus right now" - I don't agree. Injustice against everyone should be the focus at all times.
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On June 04 2020 08:49 Starlightsun wrote:
It's weird how our flag has become almost a quasi religious symbol. I remember as a kid if you did flag duty (putting it up on the pole) you were told it must NEVER touch the ground. And of course we recited our pledge of allegiance to it each morning. I never questioned it as a child, and it seems some people never do even as adults.
Thinking about it more, the pledge of allegiance is first "to the flag", and only afterwards "to the republic for which it stands". Odd.
This is the best post on this subject imo.
The flag is amazing target to protest because it symbolizes the US population being brainwashed to accept injustice in the name of the flag.
It symbolizes the acceptance of evil committed by your compatriots, and a sycophantic need to do what your 'superiors' tell you to do.
The whole idea of being forced to repeat an oath to the flag as a child is a closing of the eyes to injustice.
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What you don't seem to get is that this is american marketing speech stuff.
It is in a similar vein as "pro life" or "pro choice". People try to frame their cause positively, not as a thing they are in opposition to.
If this were a sane world with mathematically sensible terminology, Black lives matter and Blue lives matter would both be a subset of All lives matter, and all of those would be trying to protect people from brutality.
That is not the case, however. "Black Lives Matter" came up as a response to police brutality against Black people, and "All Lives Matter" is a countermovement to "Black Lives Matter". As such, ALM has baggage beyond the name. It is defined by its opposition to BLM, not by anything on its own. A better term for ALM would be anti-BLM, but that doesn't sell as well, and marketing newspeech is everything. Things can mean different things beyond what they call themselves.
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On June 04 2020 19:20 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 18:52 Sr18 wrote:On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration. I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now. First of all, I don't know why this has to be a white vs black thing. There are other groups in the country and nobody is spared from the problem. Second of all -You're correct - BLM doesn't say black lives are above white lives. Here is what they do believe, though: "We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people." https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/They are putting blacks above others in the discussion of police brutality. I do not believe in their philosophy. I do not believe that fighting only for black people by extension helps all people. This is the same group that bullied Bernie Sanders, we are talking a man who protested on the streets for black people when things were very bad for them, for saying "all lives matter." I do not believe in aggressively ignoring everyone else under the assumption that "things will simply just get better for them too." It leads to marginalization. For example, you will NEVER hear about police brutality against Native Americans, who suffer from police brutality at a rate higher than every single other race in the country, including blacks. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/native-lives-matter/index.htmlThe idea that working ONLY for justice for black people leads to justice for everyone is a baseless assumption. As for "it's not the focus right now" - I don't agree. Injustice against everyone should be the focus at all times.
This makes little sense to me.
Its like attacking a charity set up to help poor immigrants for not also helping poor Americans.
Some things are better compartmentalised, when a problem has different qualities or outcomes for different groups of people.
I'm sure there are movements or causes which are focusing on general police brutality, but the one that captured the imagination was BLM because justice system outcomes are so much worse for black people.
--------------
Edit
By the way I saw this today and its just horrifying how little regard these cops have for human life
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-police-destroy-medic-station-asheville/3124847001/
Video by the Citizen Times shows Asheville police officers in riot gear and holding shields forming a protective circle around officers stomping and stabbing water bottles. Other officers destroyed medical supplies such as bandages and saline solution.
Sean Miller, a UNC-Asheville student who is head of communication for the medical team, said the 10-12 medics present were all clearly marked as such and did not provoke police in any way.
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On June 04 2020 19:37 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 19:20 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 18:52 Sr18 wrote:On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration. I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now. First of all, I don't know why this has to be a white vs black thing. There are other groups in the country and nobody is spared from the problem. Second of all -You're correct - BLM doesn't say black lives are above white lives. Here is what they do believe, though: "We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people." https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/They are putting blacks above others in the discussion of police brutality. I do not believe in their philosophy. I do not believe that fighting only for black people by extension helps all people. This is the same group that bullied Bernie Sanders, we are talking a man who protested on the streets for black people when things were very bad for them, for saying "all lives matter." I do not believe in aggressively ignoring everyone else under the assumption that "things will simply just get better for them too." It leads to marginalization. For example, you will NEVER hear about police brutality against Native Americans, who suffer from police brutality at a rate higher than every single other race in the country, including blacks. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/native-lives-matter/index.htmlThe idea that working ONLY for justice for black people leads to justice for everyone is a baseless assumption. As for "it's not the focus right now" - I don't agree. Injustice against everyone should be the focus at all times. This makes little sense to me. Its like attacking a charity set up to help poor immigrants for not also helping poor Americans. Some things are better compartmentalised, when a problem has different qualities or outcomes for different groups of people. I'm sure there are movements or causes which are focusing on general police brutality, but the one that captured the imagination was BLM because justice system outcomes are so much worse for black people. -------------- Edit By the way I saw this today and its just horrifying how little regard these cops have for human life https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-police-destroy-medic-station-asheville/3124847001/Show nested quote +Video by the Citizen Times shows Asheville police officers in riot gear and holding shields forming a protective circle around officers stomping and stabbing water bottles. Other officers destroyed medical supplies such as bandages and saline solution.
Sean Miller, a UNC-Asheville student who is head of communication for the medical team, said the 10-12 medics present were all clearly marked as such and did not provoke police in any way.
Add it to the list of war crimes perpetrated by the US government against a peaceful civilian population. No one should be surprised when that politic comes home to roost (not saying you are).
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On June 04 2020 19:37 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 19:20 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 18:52 Sr18 wrote:On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration. I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now. First of all, I don't know why this has to be a white vs black thing. There are other groups in the country and nobody is spared from the problem. Second of all -You're correct - BLM doesn't say black lives are above white lives. Here is what they do believe, though: "We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people." https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/They are putting blacks above others in the discussion of police brutality. I do not believe in their philosophy. I do not believe that fighting only for black people by extension helps all people. This is the same group that bullied Bernie Sanders, we are talking a man who protested on the streets for black people when things were very bad for them, for saying "all lives matter." I do not believe in aggressively ignoring everyone else under the assumption that "things will simply just get better for them too." It leads to marginalization. For example, you will NEVER hear about police brutality against Native Americans, who suffer from police brutality at a rate higher than every single other race in the country, including blacks. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/native-lives-matter/index.htmlThe idea that working ONLY for justice for black people leads to justice for everyone is a baseless assumption. As for "it's not the focus right now" - I don't agree. Injustice against everyone should be the focus at all times. This makes little sense to me. Its like attacking a charity set up to help poor immigrants for not also helping poor Americans. Some things are better compartmentalised, when a problem has different qualities or outcomes for different groups of people. I'm sure there are movements or causes which are focusing on general police brutality, but the one that captured the imagination was BLM because justice system outcomes are so much worse for black people.
BLM is not like a charity. Charities don't seek to exert political influence and policy change. A charity that helps poor immigrants won't tell charities that help poor American's that those charities are bigots and should instead join their cause, because helping poor immigrants will by extension help poor Americans.
I don't think think the issue of Police corruption and police brutality should be compartmentalized by race.
When talking about the rights of individuals, I don't believe there is any merit in bringing race up.
I don't see why me saying "All lives matter" rather than "black lives matter" is bad. Both say black lives matter, but one includes non-blacks as well who are suffering.
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The thing that bothers me the most about these arguments in support of white supremacy is that they hide behind calls for equality that are blatantly hollow.
If people support white supremacy, say it wit ya chest imo.
...for whatever reason is refusing to accept that Black Lives Matter also means justice for all people...
Same goes for people calling this stuff out imo. Call it what it is. White supremacist propaganda meant to undermine equitable treatment under the law masquerading as sensible calls for equity.
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Imagine when you were back at school when your classmate is handing out the art materials the teacher gave him to hand out to everyone but he doesn’t give you any. You ask for your fair share of craft materials yet your classmate corrects you that everyone should get their share and punishes you for being selfish.
When you asked for your fair share, you weren’t suggesting that the other kids don’t matter, you just wanted the same craft materials they got. This is the situation Black Lives Matter is currently in where there is a chunk of the population that for whatever reason is refusing to accept that “Black Lives Matter” means justice for all people. The Black is emphasised because they have been disproportionately impacted by negative policies from slavery to the interstate highway system purposely running through black communities erasing them and the collective knowledge and wealth created by those communities. You know how riots are destroying lives and businesses? The government has done this for the duration of the USA.
When you respond with All Lives Matter, it is dismissive of what Black Lives Matter are fighting for. Sure they are fighting for better treatment of black people because no one cares that black people die as Renee Russo in Nightcrawler best out it. The fight for black people to not get brutalized by the justice system includes all races if you actually listen to what they are fighting for because the proposed changes would include all races impacted by an uneven justice system.
On June 04 2020 19:54 GreenHorizons wrote:
The thing that bothers me the most about these arguments in support of white supremacy is that they hide behind calls for equality that are blatantly hollow.
If people support white supremacy, say it wit ya chest imo.
I won’t lie, I’ve gotten more and more impatient with the All Lives Matter crew. If they can watch black people - and it is 99% black people - get shot to death in their own home because the police can’t read street addresses and still scream why black people aren’t saying All Lives Matter, then I’m not sure what else you can say to convince them otherwise.
It is Black Lives Matter because the vast majority of other people don’t suffer from the same degree of senseless police brutality. Tackling said police brutality will help all races, maybe they should rename the movement to Black Lives Matter Too if they’re not willing to add 2 + 2 together.
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On June 04 2020 19:50 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 19:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2020 19:20 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 18:52 Sr18 wrote:On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration. I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now. First of all, I don't know why this has to be a white vs black thing. There are other groups in the country and nobody is spared from the problem. Second of all -You're correct - BLM doesn't say black lives are above white lives. Here is what they do believe, though: "We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people." https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/They are putting blacks above others in the discussion of police brutality. I do not believe in their philosophy. I do not believe that fighting only for black people by extension helps all people. This is the same group that bullied Bernie Sanders, we are talking a man who protested on the streets for black people when things were very bad for them, for saying "all lives matter." I do not believe in aggressively ignoring everyone else under the assumption that "things will simply just get better for them too." It leads to marginalization. For example, you will NEVER hear about police brutality against Native Americans, who suffer from police brutality at a rate higher than every single other race in the country, including blacks. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/native-lives-matter/index.htmlThe idea that working ONLY for justice for black people leads to justice for everyone is a baseless assumption. As for "it's not the focus right now" - I don't agree. Injustice against everyone should be the focus at all times. This makes little sense to me. Its like attacking a charity set up to help poor immigrants for not also helping poor Americans. Some things are better compartmentalised, when a problem has different qualities or outcomes for different groups of people. I'm sure there are movements or causes which are focusing on general police brutality, but the one that captured the imagination was BLM because justice system outcomes are so much worse for black people. BLM is not like a charity. Charities don't seek to exert political influence and policy change. A charity that helps poor immigrants won't tell charities that help poor American's that those charities are bigots and should instead join their cause, because helping poor immigrants will by extension help poor Americans. I don't think think the issue of Police corruption and police brutality should be compartmentalized by race. When talking about the rights of individuals, I don't believe there is any merit in bringing race up. I don't see why me saying "All lives matter" rather than "black lives matter" is bad. Both say black lives matter, but one includes non-blacks as well who are suffering.
I mean, just look at how 'all lives matter' arose.
It was a reaction AGAINST BLM. The phrase has much more meaning in context than simply 'all lives matter'. It basically says black lives don't matter - it is a call to arms for the status quo and an admonishment to those who would continually insist that black lives do matter.
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On June 04 2020 19:50 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 19:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2020 19:20 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 18:52 Sr18 wrote:On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration. I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now. First of all, I don't know why this has to be a white vs black thing. There are other groups in the country and nobody is spared from the problem. Second of all -You're correct - BLM doesn't say black lives are above white lives. Here is what they do believe, though: "We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people." https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/They are putting blacks above others in the discussion of police brutality. I do not believe in their philosophy. I do not believe that fighting only for black people by extension helps all people. This is the same group that bullied Bernie Sanders, we are talking a man who protested on the streets for black people when things were very bad for them, for saying "all lives matter." I do not believe in aggressively ignoring everyone else under the assumption that "things will simply just get better for them too." It leads to marginalization. For example, you will NEVER hear about police brutality against Native Americans, who suffer from police brutality at a rate higher than every single other race in the country, including blacks. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/native-lives-matter/index.htmlThe idea that working ONLY for justice for black people leads to justice for everyone is a baseless assumption. As for "it's not the focus right now" - I don't agree. Injustice against everyone should be the focus at all times. This makes little sense to me. Its like attacking a charity set up to help poor immigrants for not also helping poor Americans. Some things are better compartmentalised, when a problem has different qualities or outcomes for different groups of people. I'm sure there are movements or causes which are focusing on general police brutality, but the one that captured the imagination was BLM because justice system outcomes are so much worse for black people. Charities don't seek to exert political influence and policy change.
The idea that charities don't seek to exert political influence or push for policy change is absolutely ridiculous. Charities do both those things all the goddamn time.
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The flag, ALM, Obama in the WH, etc. the common thread is lashing out at Black people refusing to accept our place in US society is not meant to be one of equity.
It's irrefutable that we don't live an equitable society and the old Jane Elliot clip+ Show Spoiler + demonstrates white society has long known. I'm with Baldwin and his "moral monsters" critique and Kwame Ture on his US social critique+ Show Spoiler + at this point.
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On June 04 2020 20:11 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 19:50 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 19:37 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 04 2020 19:20 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 18:52 Sr18 wrote:On June 04 2020 18:09 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 17:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 04 2020 17:10 BerserkSword wrote:On June 04 2020 16:14 ChristianS wrote:
And if the problem really is mere ignorance, how are these people still sufficiently aware to have visceral partisan reactions directly opposing reforming this injustice? Slogans like “stop and frisk,” “blue lives matter,” “boycott the NFL” each in their own way indicate an awareness of, and explicit support for, the exact systems we’re pretending they’re merely ignorant of.
So before you accuse me of ill will or lack of empathy or something again, why don’t you try to describe why you think these people tolerate this injustice and react against calls to reform it (since I apparently lack the empathy and good will to intuit their motivations on my own)? "Stop and frisk" is a slogan? Where? Last I remember, the biggest champion of stop and frisk in the 21st century America just got blown out of the water in an election. "Blue lives matter" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. It's nothing more than a slogan that implicates cop lives matter and I guess that killing a cop should be considered a hate crime. Any assumption one makes about it supporting police brutality is....nothing more than than that - an assumption. "Boycott the NFL" does not indicate an explicit support for police brutality. You can boycott the NFL and still be against police brutality. I don't know if you realize, but disrespecting the flag is unpalatable to MANY Americans, and in their eyes, the flag does not represent police brutality. Sorry that not everyone feels the same way about the American flag the way Kap does. Personally, I think ignorance of the general electorate is a huge problem, and not in just this issue and not just within certain demographics. Going back to stop and risk and bloomberg - Bloomberg was able to win in NYC, a city in which more than half the population is either Black or Hispanic, an unprecedented THREE TIMES. Let that sink in. There is a general ignorance and dissonance when it comes to the American electorate. Quite hard to know if you are serious. All lives matter or Blue lives matter implies there is no discrimination against black folks and that it's not a racial problem. Cops are not the ones that need to be defended here. The flag represents the country. The country is not giving many of its citizens the most basic rights: equal treatment, dignity, justice. Its own officers, the police, are humiliating, beating, killing black people and don't even get prosecuted for it. I get it, you guys care more about your misplaced patriotism and the well being of businesses than the most elementary rights of people with a browner skin than you. But don't be such a hypocrite and admit that boycott the NFL, Blue lives matter and so on are just a fuck you to BLM and people who fight for this charade to end. All lives matter and blue lives matter do not imply that there is no discrimination against black people. Thinking that they do is just mental gymnastics. There are many ways to look at a flag. The Constitution doesnt sanction any discriminatory PD practices, and the Constitution is the law of the country represented by the flag. No matter what way you want to spin it, someone boycotting the NFL because he/she doesn't view the flag the same way Kap does NOT necessarily make him against police brutality. I don't know what you mean by "you guys" since libertarians place liberty for all above everything. Sorry it doesnt fit in with your narrative, the same narrative that will drive most of the African Americans in this country to vote for the white politician trying to hand out black cards. Personally, I am an All Lives Matter guy and don't believe in any movement that places one race above the rest like BLM. As a brown man, I don't want to pretend that police brutality is a black ONLY problem and I don't want other groups to be marginalized. The idea of working only for the betterment of black people, and that it will somehow spill over to everyone, is flawed and baseless. I care for defending the rights of ALL, and that includes the rights of individuals to their property. I don't believe innocent people should have their rights violated just because another person/group has had theirs violated by a completely different party. I will never be for tolerating the violation of rights against innocent people, not even as an outlet for frustration. I assume BLM doesn't presume to place black lives above white lives, but rather the goal is to have black lives mean just as much as white lives. It is entirely possible to focus on stopping excessive police violence against black people without condoning the same violence against whites. I'd think very few BLM protesters are okay with excessive police violence against white people, it's just not the focus right now. First of all, I don't know why this has to be a white vs black thing. There are other groups in the country and nobody is spared from the problem. Second of all -You're correct - BLM doesn't say black lives are above white lives. Here is what they do believe, though: "We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people." https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/They are putting blacks above others in the discussion of police brutality. I do not believe in their philosophy. I do not believe that fighting only for black people by extension helps all people. This is the same group that bullied Bernie Sanders, we are talking a man who protested on the streets for black people when things were very bad for them, for saying "all lives matter." I do not believe in aggressively ignoring everyone else under the assumption that "things will simply just get better for them too." It leads to marginalization. For example, you will NEVER hear about police brutality against Native Americans, who suffer from police brutality at a rate higher than every single other race in the country, including blacks. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/10/us/native-lives-matter/index.htmlThe idea that working ONLY for justice for black people leads to justice for everyone is a baseless assumption. As for "it's not the focus right now" - I don't agree. Injustice against everyone should be the focus at all times. This makes little sense to me. Its like attacking a charity set up to help poor immigrants for not also helping poor Americans. Some things are better compartmentalised, when a problem has different qualities or outcomes for different groups of people. I'm sure there are movements or causes which are focusing on general police brutality, but the one that captured the imagination was BLM because justice system outcomes are so much worse for black people. BLM is not like a charity. Charities don't seek to exert political influence and policy change. A charity that helps poor immigrants won't tell charities that help poor American's that those charities are bigots and should instead join their cause, because helping poor immigrants will by extension help poor Americans. I don't think think the issue of Police corruption and police brutality should be compartmentalized by race. When talking about the rights of individuals, I don't believe there is any merit in bringing race up. I don't see why me saying "All lives matter" rather than "black lives matter" is bad. Both say black lives matter, but one includes non-blacks as well who are suffering. I mean, just look at how 'all lives matter' arose. It was a reaction AGAINST BLM. The phrase has much more meaning in context than simply 'all lives matter'. It basically says black lives don't matter - it is a call to arms for the status quo and an admonishment to those who would continually insist that black lives do matter.
All Lives Matter is a quintessential example of reactionary politics, it's startling how neatly it fits the mold.
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EPT
