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Uldridge
Belgium4764 Posts
Not everyone can be as aligned to your cause as you deem necessary, but they can still be an ally imo. For example, you'd have to understand the coal miner fighting for health care being just a little bit less passionate about BLM. Because fighting for health care is his fight. And fighting takes a lot of energy. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On June 05 2020 00:11 Uldridge wrote: But the common class interests aren't inextricably tied to racial justice. For the majority group its just justice and some kind of subset of justice that needs to be served. Not everyone can be as aligned to your cause as you deem necessary, but they can still be an ally imo. For example, you'd have to understand the coal miner fighting for health care being just a little bit less passionate about BLM. Because fighting for health care is his fight. And fighting takes a lot of energy. They invariably are. Race is a construct explicitly designed as an incarnation of "the other". This otherization is intrinsic to dehumanization. That dehumanization is inextricably connected to the exploitation that maintains the illusion of peace and prosperity among the bourgeoisie (also characterized as "negative peace"). The inhumanity of maintaining that illusion is constantly brought to our attention by our material conditions beyond superficial materialistic possessions/comforts. Opiate epidemic, Crack epidemic, riots, wars, climate change and a whole lot more are this manifesting. As should be clear with at least war and climate change, the consequences of inaction and fence-sitting aren't limited to the borders of the most egregiously offending individuals/guilty parties and nations. This isn't to disregard research on empathy in relation to social proximity but to embrace it and integrate it into a larger framework of social understanding. This is where I would segue to Freire and being more fully human if I believed people were with me up to this point. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 04 2020 21:44 MWY wrote: It's so weird seeing discussions about slogans/hashtags and their interpretations (which apparently are still different for each person) having such a high value and such agressive responses. I could be so simple: - A black man got killed again. We need to change something. I think black lives matter. - I think so too, just don't forget that this is not only an issue for black people and try to go for a solution that helps all people who are getting treated badly by the police. - Yeah cool. Lets go. All lifes matter without it's attempted framing/meaning by certain groups is factually the best way to look at the issue, isn't it? So maybe it would be clever to just use both hashtags instead of antagonizing and attacking everyone who possibly means well, but doesn't know or doesn't care that right-wing-groups are using it as an argument not to do anything. If All lifes matter would be connected to a call to action equal to black lives matter, couldn't it be more inclusive and powerful? Afterall, it's just a slogan/hashtag and people define it's meaning. You’re partially right here. The matter of historical injustice and who were the rallying cries at the BLM start made it take shape. Wishing for a different birth of a movement or thrust for the movement at this point isn’t productive. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8982 Posts
On June 05 2020 00:11 Uldridge wrote: But the common class interests aren't inextricably tied to racial justice. For the majority group its just justice and some kind of subset of justice that needs to be served. Not everyone can be as aligned to your cause as you deem necessary, but they can still be an ally imo. For example, you'd have to understand the coal miner fighting for health care being just a little bit less passionate about BLM. Because fighting for health care is his fight. And fighting takes a lot of energy. I agree. While you can care and want substantial change for one group, doesn't mean you abandon your fight for healthcare reform. You have your priority and that should be okay for people. I just wouldn't opine on the topic of BLM by saying "I agree BLM, but I need healthcare more so I'm gonna sit this one out." You can achieve both through thoughtful engagement. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4764 Posts
I'm disenfranchized from other social groups because I don't get their inside jokes or humor or sex ratio's or whatever. I'm inherently disenfranchized from the deaf community because I can hear. There will always be this division of social groups, because that's what we as humans do. We tend to sort and file and divide because that's how we create structure and thats what we need for things to make sense. It's an innate ancient mental structure that just exists and needs VERY hard work to be eroded even just a little bit. I agree that otherness has been exploited in history and currently as well, but that's a symptom of the way we structures our economy, where human lives can be leveraged for maximum profit. | ||
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Trainrunnef
United States599 Posts
On June 05 2020 00:42 Uldridge wrote: Otherness (or in- and outgroups) can literally be found in family and friend groups as well though. I'm disenfranchized from other social groups because I don't get their inside jokes or humor or sex ratio's or whatever. I'm inherently disenfranchized from the deaf community because I can hear. There will always be this division of social groups, because that's what we as humans do. We tend to sort and file and divide because that's how we create structure and thats what we need for things to make sense. It's an innate ancient mental structure that just exists and needs VERY hard work to be eroded even just a little bit. I agree that otherness has been exploited in history and currently as well. It's that very hard work that we have avoided doing, which has led to the situation we have today. We can't keep avoiding it and rationalizing it with all lives matter, and blue lives matter. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On June 05 2020 00:42 Uldridge wrote: Otherness (or in- and outgroups) can literally be found in family and friend groups as well though. I'm disenfranchized from other social groups because I don't get their inside jokes or humor or sex ratio's or whatever. I'm inherently disenfranchized from the deaf community because I can hear. There will always be this division of social groups, because that's what we as humans do. We tend to sort and file and divide because that's how we create structure and thats what we need for things to make sense. It's an innate ancient mental structure that just exists and needs VERY hard work to be eroded even just a little bit. I agree that otherness has been exploited in history and currently as well. Then your dispute isn't that they aren't intrinsically intertwined but the plausibility and thoroughness of addressing it. Part of that is sociologically determining whether it is problematic. Another part is how much effort should be expended to address it if we determine it is problematic. You claim to agree that you at least see some problematic aspects of this behavior (like other undesirable behaviors) but your points of contention seem more focused on a futility you perceive in correcting it. This is often based in two primary factors: 1. A belief in an immutable (or nearly so) "human nature" construct very loosely based in any scientific rigor if at all. 2.That mediating the problematic aspect of that nature is always being done as well or nearly as well as can be reasonably expected. Which is comparably based in ahistorical and willfully ignorant descriptions of current and historical material conditions. EDIT: I should add "human nature" has often been used itself to otherize/dehumanize groups of people that didn't adhere to dominant notions of "human nature". That's kinda the point of Avatar. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25215 Posts
On June 04 2020 22:35 Biff The Understudy wrote: I am not sure that telling people how "people like you" will guide "people like them" to the light until they say the right, "elegantly simple" thing is the best way to go if you want to be listened to. If that's really what you think, you at least could avoid saying it openly. I think most folks in the West are aware of institutionalized and systemic racism in the US. Folks are aware in general on some kind of surface level, what generally is considerably rarer is people taking a step into considering that they are part of this system and what role they are choosing to play within it. Hence you get crossed wires and people posting ‘All Lives Matter’ from a neutral or benevolent mindset who don’t realise how that message can be seen as one that seeks to erase the grievances of one segment of society. I’ve been historically rather guilty of ‘can we not just pursue general neutral egalitarianism?’ in the past, in regards to race issues and feminism in particular, and advocated for less inflammatory rhetoric in order to not turn off potential converts. I’ve largely changed position on these matters, a general egalitarianism is a noble end goal, like Star Trek’s pseudo post-scarcity society, there are more transitionary stages that need to be crossed. Partly because I realised a lot of bad actors, either intentional or just inured to inequity couch things in calls for general equality, non-violence or free speech zealously to actively impede progress in reaching those very goals. GH can be a bit spiky sometimes sure, and I personally came to evolve positions more through personal introspection but he is punching through the same barriers and arguments that aren’t that hard to move around if one actively tries, so I’d be a little spiky too. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25215 Posts
On June 05 2020 00:11 Uldridge wrote: But the common class interests aren't inextricably tied to racial justice. For the majority group its just justice and some kind of subset of justice that needs to be served. Not everyone can be as aligned to your cause as you deem necessary, but they can still be an ally imo. For example, you'd have to understand the coal miner fighting for health care being just a little bit less passionate about BLM. Because fighting for health care is his fight. And fighting takes a lot of energy. I’d agree that people will feel this way, it’s why there is such a conscious effort to divert the white working class’ anger with race or immigrant baiting, or anti-union stuff. A less fractured working class is far less threatening to the status quo after all. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4764 Posts
Coming to a consensus on when experience of otherness crosses a line is not that easy because different things apply to different groups. This is where cultural relativism comes heavily into play. Also, I don't see a futility in correcting some of it, those where the experience of otherness crosses the line into exploitation. You don't think human nature is immutable. Neither do I. For instance, opinions can change, religious beliefs can change and even political opinions. However, they often need strong changes in a person's life. I strongly believe in a biological basis for many of our opinions. Why do you think there are people with a polar opposite view of yours? Sure it's shaped through experiences, but inherent aspects of yourself (agreeableness, openness, industriousness, ..) impact this tremendously. They've got that down to a pretty hard science and with that I mean on a genetic basis. Changing someones way of thinking requires massive amounts of energy of the person changing. Its definitely not impossible, but it's more difficult than you might think to do consistently. Humans are resilient creatures. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On June 05 2020 01:32 Uldridge wrote: Yeah, there is a need. That's the point of Black Lives Matter and why the rallying call isn't "Lives Matter"No because I am addressing it. I'm saying that otherness is found everywhere and that fighting for common class interests isn't inextricably tied to racial justice. It's tied justice, no need to slap an adjective there on it. Coming to a consensus on when experience of otherness crosses a line is not that easy because different things apply to different groups. This is where cultural relativism comes heavily into play. To me this is "getting the white western world to concede it's global domination will be difficult" which, tell me about it lol.Also, I don't see a futility in correcting some of it, those where the experience of otherness crosses the line into exploitation. This is good.You don't think human nature is immutable. Neither do I. For instance, opinions can change, religious beliefs can change and even political opinions. However, they often need strong changes in a person's life. I strongly believe in a biological basis for many of our opinions. Why do you think there are people with a polar opposite view of yours? Sure it's shaped through experiences, but inherent aspects of yourself (agreeableness, openness, industriousness, ..) impact this tremendously. They've got that down to a pretty hard science and with that I mean on a genetic basis. Changing someones way of thinking requires massive amounts of energy of the person changing. Its definitely not impossible, but it's more difficult than you might think to do consistently. Humans are resilient creatures. This is what I meant by "human nature" construct very loosely based in any scientific rigor if at all. You're simply using words like "genetics" and "biological basis" to describe your feelings about anecdotal experiences inappropriately. There has been research done into things like empathy and the biological influences, particularly around psychopath serial killers. One somewhat unrelated one I remember with wider potential applicability was manipulating behavior/beliefs (temporarily) through applying magnetic fields to the brain. Though the one I specifically remember was focused on empathy rather than political and religious beliefs. That's to say we understand the emotions and our behavior patterns more every day but the application of that information in your construct is irreparably flawed imo. The issues you/others credit to human nature are almost always more likely borne of hegemonic nurturing than an intrinsic trait of humanity. The failure to distinguish the two and their overlapping roles is at the core of a lot of discord on these issues. EDIT: To more clearly lay out the point: While othering/in-group dynamics may be a sociological phenomena that extends to all living creatures to some degree, an important function of the prefrontal cortex is for us to reach beyond our most base biological imperatives and do things like determine our in-group parameters. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On June 04 2020 23:15 GreenHorizons wrote: Ideally we could get past this so we could attack the root issues of capitalism that necessitates a society where that stockroom clerk in OK, the cashier that called the police on George Floyd, the coal miner fighting for healthcare, and the people in the streets see themselves as enemies or of disparate interests. Instead see our common class interests as inextricably tied to racial justice. That there is no peace without justice. Instead we have to explain why kneeling during the anthem at a football game isn't bad (EDIT) and saying "All Lives Matter" is actually. I don't see the cashier calling cops on Floyd for a counterfeit bill in itself as an issue by the way. It's a state policy, and not an problem imo, i believe we have more or less the same here. The issue is (i saw several twitters from disgusted whites that got out scot free and it's common sense), that your color shouldn't determine if you get a warning and please use another bill, or a chokehold. Your previous history with justice and general attitude should. Other cases though, like that bitch in Central Park..... No comment. (And most French police issues have to do with suspects fleeing and causing issues) | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4764 Posts
And as for your comment about what I've said about human nature: But that's literally where you're wrong. I've seen the lectures given by Robert Sapolsky (it's on Youtube and a must watch) and I know what (epi)genetics does. People can not only estimate relatively well how long you'll live by looking at your (epi)genetics profile, but also know if your prone to addiction and in which political spectrum you fall. And this knowledge I'm talking about isn't that recent either. Edit: goddamn I keep using PoE as acronym because Path of exile is abbreviated that way, but I don't even play it.. huge brain fart, sincere apologies. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8982 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
Make it clear to the All lives matter folk that you see them as allies, because they care about all lives including yours. Or BLM can just stay pissed off at them and have yet another hurdle to jump over to make change. Now there's something new in the way, a battleground that could have been sidestepped... Some of you are too obsessed with waging war to consider that war breeds enemies. Doesn't sound like "by any means necessary." Sounds more like, "I just want to fight people I don't like." Some of you are mentally trapped in a world of war and think it's all about war, forgetting that the war was supposed to be a means to an end. I bet 50 years later if your still alive you will still be in this mental state, weather our society heals or not. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On June 05 2020 02:00 Uldridge wrote: Yes GH, I get it. BLM is a necessity for PoE, but that's not what we were discussing and using that as an example is disingenious. And as for your comment about what I've said about human nature: But that's literally where you're wrong. I've seen the lectures given by Robert Sapolsky (it's on Youtube and a must watch) and I know what (epi)genetics does. People can not only estimate relatively well how long you'll live by looking at your (epi)genetics profile, but also know if your prone to addiction and in which political spectrum you fall. And this knowledge I'm talking about isn't that recent either. I don't know what you saw but I know him to argue something more akin to what I am than you are presenting. + Show Spoiler + Biology alone isn’t enough, he explains, to understand the roots of cooperation, empathy and altruism (our best side), and violence, aggression and competition (our worst). Sapolsky, a professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University, California, brings in psychology and culture too, for all are “utterly intertwined” in our behaviour. And everywhere the writing is informed by his vast, world-leading knowledge of baboon behaviour. + Show Spoiler + Having mastered his lessons, you will find, as you chat with friends, a new sensibility to the inner question, “Why did I just say that?” This sensibility reaches through the tiny biases and physiological states that made one sentence pop out rather than another, through the inner tremblings of fear and anxiety, right back to an understanding of the primate roots of our obsession with rank and hierarchy. It takes in the status differences we detect in a blink of an eye, our ever-shifting groupings of “us” and “them”, and why some two-thirds of our daily speech is gossip (“with the vast majority of it being negative”, Sapolsky reminds us). You can then breeze through the book’s second half, in which you zoom in and out of levels of explanation, examining big questions about the best and worst of our behaviour. Hierarchy, obedience, morality, the hidden perils of empathy, free will, evil and criminality, war and peace are all here. Sapolsky explores at length our inescapable and terrible tendency to create us/them dichotomies. The process is not only quite automatic but also easy to manipulate, altering our sense of who belongs to “us” and “them”. We readily forgive “us”; if “we” screw up, it is because of special circumstances. If “they” do, it is because that is how “they”are. Sapolsky’s liberal bent is everywhere apparent. He is passionate about the terrible things that childhood deprivation and inequality can do to people’s brains and health. He is also disturbed that people living in unequal societies become less kind and more likely to displace their anger on to those lower down in the pecking order: “Giving ulcers can help you avoid getting them,” he writes. This summed up what I see as our mutual point on hegemonic nurturing being mistaken for "human nature" well. You may view testosterone, for example, as the male hormone that boosts aggression. Wrong, says Sapolsky. Rising testosterone levels do prompt behaviours aimed at maintaining social status. But if that requires people to be nice, extra testosterone makes them more generous. “In our world riddled with male violence, the problem isn’t that testosterone can increase levels of aggression. The problem is the frequency with which we reward aggression,” he writes. Also definitely 'stealing' with credit this line to describe a point I've long made about why working customer service sucks in an exploitative capitalist society. He is also disturbed that people living in unequal societies become less kind and more likely to displace their anger on to those lower down in the pecking order: “Giving ulcers can help you avoid getting them,” he writes. www.newscientist.com @Iamdave, farv, others. I'm not optimistic that moment of reflection is coming any time soon for our friend. TLDR: You're making the handshake customs are human nature argument. Rather than handshakes are a method by which we access our deeper psychological tendencies of discrimination. The prima facie evidence of this is the handshake vs the bow and how it's cultural not biological factors that allow people to decode one, both, or neither while they both act as a tool to access those biological (and behavioral/nurture influenced) systems of discrimination. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25215 Posts
On June 05 2020 02:11 puppykiller wrote: This All Lives Matter vs Black Lives Matter shit is a petty waste of time. Accept the ALM crowd and tell them to put their money where their mouth is by attending protests and standing up for Black lives (since they are part of all lives). Make it clear to the All lives matter folk that you see them as allies, because they care about all lives including yours. Or BLM can just stay pissed off at them and have yet another hurdle to jump over to make change. Now there's something new in the way, a battleground that could have been sidestepped... Some of you are too obsessed with waging war to consider that war breeds enemies. Doesn't sound like "by any means necessary." Sounds more like, "I just want to fight people I don't like." Some of you are mentally trapped in a world of war and think it's all about war, forgetting that the war was supposed to be a means to an end. I bet 50 years later if your still alive you will still be in this mental state, weather our society heals or not. BLM do this, people just don’t want to listen, or are ignorant of some of what they do. I’ve seen enough attempts at ‘why didn’t BLM say anything about x white guy?’ get squashed immediately by people linking to statements about said incidents on Twitter and Facebook the last week to do me a lifetime. Nothing is as symptomatic of fragile white sensibilities that they can’t get on board a black-driven movement without changes to the branding being made. Like it or not all lives matter and blue lives matter have been commandeered by groups who are already enemies and hostile to the movement, as has been pointed out before in this thread. Yes in an ideal world I’d agree with your sentiment but we’re far from an ideal world currently. | ||
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Trainrunnef
United States599 Posts
On June 05 2020 02:11 puppykiller wrote: This All Lives Matter vs Black Lives Matter shit is a petty waste of time. Accept the ALM crowd and tell them to put their money where their mouth is by attending protests and standing up for Black lives (since they are part of all lives). Make it clear to the All lives matter folk that you see them as allies, because they care about all lives including yours. Or BLM can just stay pissed off at them and have yet another hurdle to jump over to make change. Now there's something new in the way, a battleground that could have been sidestepped... Some of you are too obsessed with waging war to consider that war breeds enemies. Doesn't sound like "by any means necessary." Sounds more like, "I just want to fight people I don't like." Some of you are mentally trapped in a world of war and think it's all about war, forgetting that the war was supposed to be a means to an end. I bet 50 years later if your still alive you will still be in this mental state, weather our society heals or not. Re-read the last 3-4 pages, it pretty clearly explains why ALM people will not put their money where their mouth is. They either dont care enough to understand, or dont want to understand. They are either trying to play Switzerland, or are already opposed to the BLM movement. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4764 Posts
Testosterone causes to act a certain way. Certain gene profiles with certain expression patterns cause a certain 'default' behavior. Edit: you act like I didnt mention cultural relativism. How can I use such a term if I think the handshake custom is human nature? Let me ask you a few questions: Why do you think people are conservative? Do you think they can even adhere to your view? Do you think you can come to a synthesis with these people that make up such a large chunk of society? | ||
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Trainrunnef
United States599 Posts
On June 05 2020 02:00 Uldridge wrote: Yes GH, I get it. BLM is a necessity for PoC, but that's not what we were discussing and using that as an example is disingenious. And as for your comment about what I've said about human nature: But that's literally where you're wrong. I've seen the lectures given by Robert Sapolsky (it's on Youtube and a must watch) and I know what (epi)genetics does. People can not only estimate relatively well how long you'll live by looking at your (epi)genetics profile, but also know if your prone to addiction and in which political spectrum you fall. And this knowledge I'm talking about isn't that recent either. Edit: goddamn I keep using PoE as acronym because Path of exile is abbreviated that way, but I don't even play it.. huge brain fart, sincere apologies. Isn't that completely opposed to your comment about human nature NOT being immutable? EDIT: sounds an aweful lot like eugenics btw, so i would be careful on how anyone promoting that is trying to frame the conversation. | ||
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