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On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests.
When your country violates the social contract you made, what value should the flag have to someone?
People behave and the government treats you decently. That's the deal. When the state fails to protect you from murder by police, as is the case for Black People in America, the contract is already broken. Respecting something that broke a contract makes no sense. The flag doesn't deserve respect.
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On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh.
You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc.
Now try saying to someone that the flag they're fighting and dying for only symbolizes the extent to which we've failed to live up to our ideals. Is that the flag's fault? Are you running under the banner of every foreign policy disaster and civil conflict that happened under it's watch? That would make a great military marching song, we're fighting to preserve shitty public education and a terrible civil service.
So the aspirational aspects are really the thing being neglected in this debate, and probably people with left-centric thinking style will never come to terms with the full societal meaning behind it. Kind of like, telling your kid to be honest and loving, instead of saying to them they're probably going to achieve the average of society, an unempathetic, selfish, liar. Maybe the reality of the latter shouldn't diminish the teaching of the former. In that case, the framing is that the failures of living up to ideals amount to stains on the flag, rather than the flag itself. Anyways ...
Reframing your post to maybe shed some light on the thinking: "Why would they be in conflict? It's only what the flag stands for that guarantees their right to protest peacefully. It's in the fucking first amendment! The extent that peaceful assemblies are abridged is disrespect of that flag, and why I support your peaceful protest. So respect it if you value your rights, because other countries can't appeal to such a flag."
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It sounds like you're describing an ahistorical cult to me.
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That’s all fine and all but people protesting kneeling are often the same people who wear American flag underwear.
If there was a sacred respect for the flag, then it would be applied to everything and the flag code would be followed religiously. Instead it is just like religion in the United States where people pick and choose the rules most convenient to them.
You might truly believe kneeling to be antithetical to the flag and what it stands for and I respect that. Unfortunately I can’t give the same benefit of doubt to the majority of people who complained about the kneeling. They’re not angry because it’s against what the flag stands for, they’re angry because a black man is making them uncomfortable at a football game.
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The focus on the flag is so weird when it seems to be ONLY about the flag, and not about the whole ideals which should stand behind it.
Without context, a flax is just a piece of cloth.
If you think that flag is so important, then make sure your country tries to live up to the ideals the flag represents to you. Equality of people, freedom from oppression and such are almost surely amongst those ideals?
It feels kind of hollow to have this cultlike flag-following, while on the other hand having a "average is also kind of fine" approach to the abuses of power and racism within your country.
Instead of worshipping a flag, try to actually live these ideals. Be disgusted at the abuses against minorities. Fight against police brutality. The police represents the country and the flag far more than any average citizen, and thus they should be the best of you, and embody the principles that you attribute to that flag. Be tolerant of differences. If gay people want to marry, that is within the spirit of equality that you think that flag represents. Take a clear stand against racism.
If you really believe in the ideals rather than worship a piece of cloth, then you should be utterly up in arms about this situation. You should demand complete police reform, and a lot of other changes.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
Former SecDef and USMC "legend" Jim Mattis has launched quite a scathing and unprecedented (for a former general and SecDef) attack on Trump
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/
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On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc.
This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting?
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Mattis (Trump's former defense secretary) just dropped a pretty fiery condemnation of Trump. He resigned over Syria in 2018 and has said basically nothing since then. Important for two reasons - 1, optics. 2, because it gives an idea of what some senior military officers are thinking. Which is sadly rapidly becoming something we have to be concerned about in domestic matters.
edit :
Ahwstini already got it. My thoughts above.
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You know the response was about how respecting the flag by standing during the anthem jives with also supporting the peaceful protests? Think again why helping America live up to the ideals (symbolized in the flag for some proportion of America) also means not wanting to help America live up to the ideals.
Half of this insane partisan hatred and cultural divide is just misunderstanding, I swear.
EDIT: adding some quoted posts because this thread moves so fast, so you don't really respond to the quote above
+ Show Spoiler +On June 04 2020 07:38 Simberto wrote:
The focus on the flag is so weird when it seems to be ONLY about the flag, and not about the whole ideals which should stand behind it.
Without context, a flax is just a piece of cloth.
If you think that flag is so important, then make sure your country tries to live up to the ideals the flag represents to you. Equality of people, freedom from oppression and such are almost surely amongst those ideals?
It feels kind of hollow to have this cultlike flag-following, while on the other hand having a "average is also kind of fine" approach to the abuses of power and racism within your country.
Instead of worshipping a flag, try to actually live these ideals. Be disgusted at the abuses against minorities. Fight against police brutality. The police represents the country and the flag far more than any average citizen, and thus they should be the best of you, and embody the principles that you attribute to that flag. Be tolerant of differences. If gay people want to marry, that is within the spirit of equality that you think that flag represents. Take a clear stand against racism.
If you really believe in the ideals rather than worship a piece of cloth, then you should be utterly up in arms about this situation. You should demand complete police reform, and a lot of other changes.
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On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting?
That too. I remember Chris Webber saying on an episode of Open Court that he never seriously celebrated the 4th of July because he never felt reason to given the amount of pain and suffering black America had gone through and what the day represented was clearly for white America.
I imagine there are a lot of black Americans that hold similar views on what are traditionally symbols of American freedom. They don’t respect them because there’s no real reason for them to respect them, which is not a unique viewpoint in America. This type of sentiment is not uncommon in a lot of countries with oppressed indigenous groups.
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On June 04 2020 07:48 Danglars wrote:
You know the response was about how respecting the flag by standing during the anthem jives with also supporting the peaceful protests? Think again why helping America live up to the ideals (symbolized in the flag for some proportion of America) also means not wanting to help America live up to the ideals.
Half of this insane partisan hatred and cultural divide is just misunderstanding, I swear.
Can you elaborate so I can better understand?
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On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting?
Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you.
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On June 04 2020 07:48 Danglars wrote:
You know the response was about how respecting the flag by standing during the anthem jives with also supporting the peaceful protests? Think again why helping America live up to the ideals (symbolized in the flag for some proportion of America) also means not wanting to help America live up to the ideals.
Half of this insane partisan hatred and cultural divide is just misunderstanding, I swear.
Well, obviously. It's fairly clear a lot of people don't understand why kneeling for the anthem became a thing.
You can't say 'I support your right to peaceful protest' and then immediately turn around and say 'but you're not allowed to protest peacefully like that'. Unless it's literally illegal, of course, which it's not.
It isn't so much that the 'you shouldn't kneel for the flag' argument is hard to understand, it's just that the outrage over the kneeling misses the point so far it sails over the horizon and invades another country. A black man found an actual effective peaceful protest that got people talking, and that was considered going too far.
People just want 'the protests' to take a form they can ignore. Not a good protest if you can ignore it.
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On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you.
What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding.
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On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding.
What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement.
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Do you see the inherent contradiction in the anti-kneeling position? You have laid it out yourself.
The flag is a symbol. Two groups of people view that symbol as a representation of different things.
People kneeling consider the flag to represent oppression. When they kneel, they are saying "I oppose oppression".
A different group see the flag as representing opportunity. When they see people kneeling, they say "you oppose opportunity."
One of those groups is speaking for itself, about its own interpretation. The other is projecting its interpretation.
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On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement.
I think I understand better. You are saying there is an aspiration portion of the country that goes beyond the government. When all 3 branches each individually fail to uphold a a crucial component of the social contract between a citizen and the government, it does not impact the flag? There is an immortal part of the country that isn't impacted by current policy?
I can understand that, but when I think how long this has been going on, I think that expires. Civil rights act was 1968 and here we are today. Whatever the flag is supposed to represent, that meaning has not impacted our government. It is hard to argue it still represents that. Where we disagree is to what extent the supposed morals that the flag represents still exist. I think that ship sailed a long time ago. But I understand your belief better now.
Also, if the flag does represent that, I think it would include the right to also protest the flag itself.
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There's also the nagging aspect of kneeling not even being a disrespectful way to protest the flag (the oppression and hubris it represents). It'd seem a lot less weird if they were upset about a trend in TD dances desecrating/burning flags they pulled from their jocks
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On June 04 2020 08:13 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2020 08:04 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:56 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 07:43 Mohdoo wrote:On June 04 2020 07:25 Danglars wrote:On June 04 2020 06:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 04 2020 06:50 Danglars wrote:
The whole symbolism debate about the flag doesn't change depending on one's position about Floyd protests. I think 'I support their right to protest peacefully but not to riot and loot' and 'they shouldn't kneel during the anthem, that's disrespectful' are difficult to hold in tandem, tbh. You're still conflating important concepts in American society that are perhaps difficult to articulate to this kind of audience. The flag, to many people, symbolizes the best of us. Call it the ideals to which we aspire. The first amendment, rule of law, role in the world wars, defense of democratic governance against communism, humanitarian relief, etc. This doesn't apply to Black America. And because it doesn't apply to them, I can't respect the flag. We are a country that does not fulfill its obligations to its citizens. How can I respect that? What should I still be respecting? Did you even read the part when I acknowledged not everybody views the flag as a set of aspirational American ideals? Go reread it. If you have any sense that there are owed "obligation", then maybe you can think your way through to understanding something might represent that obligation that doesn't do the same to you. What I am saying is that after reading your original post, I did not walk away with a proper understanding. Since you said most of this is misunderstanding, I asked if you could elaborate on your original post in pursuit of understanding. What don't you understand about the original post, or what didn't you understand about my response? Two different groups (or more) view the flag in different ways, and the last posts from you showed you were in one camp and can't acknowledge that the other one exists. Everything you've said views the flag as the everchanging moral balance of the US domestically and abroad, instead of a set of ideals that may not be well achieved currently, but preserves the capacity to change. See: right to peacefully assemble, the vote. Now, I was a little shocked that you were into the whole "you're not really Black if Biden actually has to win your vote over Trump," so we may be seven layers apart on issues of race and we will never come to agreement. If the flag represents a set of ideals that may not be achieved currently, then surely it makes sense for a peaceful and respectful protest to remind people that those ideals have not been achieved and that everyone should continue to work towards those ideals?
On June 04 2020 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
There's also the nagging aspect of kneeling not even being a disrespectful way to protest the flag (the oppression and hubris it represents). It'd seem a lot less weird if they were upset about a trend in TD dances desecrating flags they pulled from their jocks The notion that kneeling, which is every single culture that I know of it a sign of respect or submission is somehow disrespectful is completely alien to me. I tend to ignore that part of the discussion because I simply don't get it.
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It's weird how our flag has become almost a quasi religious symbol. I remember as a kid if you did flag duty (putting it up on the pole) you were told it must NEVER touch the ground. And of course we recited our pledge of allegiance to it each morning. I never questioned it as a child, and it seems some people never do even as adults.
Thinking about it more, the pledge of allegiance is first "to the flag", and only afterwards "to the republic for which it stands". Odd.
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