EPTJust making sure, the nights prior yea, they gassed them, but last night shows more will power of the police not becoming violent. Isn't that the change we're asking for??
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2371
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
Just making sure, the nights prior yea, they gassed them, but last night shows more will power of the police not becoming violent. Isn't that the change we're asking for?? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On June 03 2020 04:06 Aveng3r wrote: Responding to this and yesterday's conversation: I'll admit that I'm starting to come around to your side of the argument as far as viewing recent events in a historical context and recognizing the motivations and raw human emotion behind them. I still don't condone some of what I've seen.. but I'm starting to understand it more. In the spirit of yesterdays conversation I was trying to think of alternate ways I would go about trying to effect change, and I've gotta admit I kinda like your idea. If the idea is to overwhelm the jail systems to highlight racism in the justice system in this country, I'm still not gonna shatter some innocent business owner's windows to get myself arrested, but smoking weed in front of a police station or something like that sounds good Appreciate it and also understand your perspective. People think being abrasive is ineffective but people that are genuinely on your side and self-reflective eventually walk a similar path as you describe. Yours is pretty quick imo, so kudos. Exactly. Now you'll find some people more critical of the idea and say something like a bunch of white people smoking weed at their local police stations or whatever sullies the memory of Floyd or doesn't address systemic racism. In some ways they are right. But in recognition of the oft repeated argument about the collateral damage of things like looting and rioting (I would argue Wall St and the state are the real looters and rioters in their pejorative sense), I think smoking weed at police stations across the US overwhelming the system is not the worst thing we could do. Pretty low bar that if we can't clear we might as well pack it up and accept systemic racism as unable to be disentangled from the US as a country. If they did actually do this, chances are the police just let them get away with it and they would have to strategically escalate but that should wake up a new batch of people when they try to imagine 2 million black people organizing to smoke at police stations across the country and the police/social reaction. On June 03 2020 04:26 ShoCkeyy wrote: Just making sure, the nights prior yea, they gassed them, but last night shows more will power of the police not becoming violent. Isn't that the change we're asking for?? Still ended up using "crowd control munitions" so not quite bruh | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
On June 03 2020 04:11 Aveng3r wrote: Wanted to highlight the last part of your post here, as I was in spirited debates in here on this exact topic yesterday. I still have my issues with the violence that I lived through first hand quite recently, and I don't think that they are the way forward because we've tried everything already. As I said before, I don't have all the answers but I don't think that violence is it, and I appreciate initiatives to look for them elsewhere. Just out of curiosity, whats your stance? To survive the encounter. To plan, strategize, mobilize, and win. To hold every person that is elected accountable and forced into special elections should they continue to ignore and dismiss the evidence of what we are seeing exposed today. To unite with allies who are for substantial change and against unnecessary violence to be heard. Typing on phone atm but I can expand on anything you have questions about. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:22 Gorsameth wrote: We both know that the 'extra-constitutional exercise of power' is because Congress is failing to act. Both in stopping the doing their job so that the President doesn't have to do it and in stopping the President from doing it. Its just like in an ordinary business. If someone is not doing his job another who shouldn't be doing it ends up having to do it because the work still needs to get done. Rephrased, neither part is getting what they want. Which can be a good thing, if they’re both bad ideas. The lack of legislative bills passed is not an excuse to invent the ability to bypass them. And looking at the record from 2000 to now, less bills passed looks like net benefit for society to me. And Trumps should give people pause before saying legislative deadlock means executive empowerment. Like, seriously, y’all. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9234 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:29 puppykiller wrote: Basically what I'm seeing is the most radical black's are the only who have voices right now in the movement. Tons of black people speaking up against the radical solution, but whites are afraid of supporting anyone besides the most radical black voices because if they do... both radical whites and blacks publicly shame them. Radical does not equal progressive.There are a lot of people who want to change the system. So basically you are trying to use public shame tactics to make sure your specific solution is the solution. I'm interested in solidarity, I won't succumb to this gas-lighting though. I can be other people's ally, I don't think I can be yours. If you think that makes me not an ally, then you think your perspective is the objective perspective. How do you come to this conclusion. Which voices did you hear? Where are their manifestos which you deem radical? | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:54 Mohdoo wrote: I don't think anyone is worried about you thinking that or not having you in the movement. People are presenting a situation that is 100% intolerable: police executions of Black People, and then reacting as is appropriate in intolerable situations. You get to decide how tolerable a situation is. If I am working from home, showering isn't urgent. If I am actively on fire, it is urgent and I need to just dive in some water. Similarly, Black People being executed by police, then police being tried differently than normal citizens, is urgent. Again, if you disagree with the urgency, you may act that way. No one is stopping you, but we will label you how we see fit based on that. But you need to understand that there are situations with varying degrees of urgency and require differing amounts of action. We see the issue as amazingly urgent that requires kicking the door down. If you see it as gas lighting, you will find people aren't really bothered by that. I think you are assuming a certain level of desirability that just isn't there. You aren't some kinda representative. You are an individual. The demand is for all police officers to never be treated any differently from an every day citizen based on the violence they conduct. All 4 cops need to be arrested yesterday. When cops are afraid of the law, they will act differently. Currently, it is mostly fine when cops kill someone because they are cops. That is bad and people are asking for that to change. I'm not going to spend any more time spoon feeding you information. You are your own person and you owe it to yourself to be educated. Thank you for posting your demands. Please post and encourage others to post them in the public eye to make it as ABUNDANTLY obvious as possible what we are fighting for and why. It isn't your duty to spoon feed me information. I think it is your duty to spoon feed politicians the details of your cause. At the very least.. would it hurt? If not, please do this, and do not assume that they are aware of your cause. They may be confused and think your cause is different because it is being misrepresented by the media. Some people in our movement may be confused and think the cause is different because it is being misrepresented in the media. It needs to become the focus more than anything else. That is solidarity. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:15 GreenHorizons wrote: Injustice is what people are supposed to be protesting. This sharp one of the murder of Floyd and the larger systemic ones that don't go away even if his accomplices are arrested and they are all convicted and serve a full sentence (still far from certain). For me they could pick their personal preference of disobedience that gets them arrested. The idea that curfew laws aren't what they are protesting so breaking that rule invalidates their cause is not something I accept as reasonable. You’re right, it’s about broader injustice in the criminal justice system, not just about this particularly heinous instance. Might not want to make it as broad as “any and all injustice in the world;” does something like “the systematic denial of civil rights and due process in the criminal justice system, especially to minority groups” sound like a reasonable summary of the injustice we’re protesting? I think you’re maybe interpreting my questions as hostile or rhetorical. They’re not! If me and a few of my friends want to protest the injustice, but aren’t comfortable with violence, is the “right” way to do it to drive down to El Cajon after curfew and let the cops arrest us? What precautions should I take? Should I record the interactions with the cops? Tell friends/family to check in on me if they don’t hear from me? Should I wait until I don’t have work the next day? I’m not really trying to lose my job over this, but maybe that’s a silly fear. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7124 Posts
This uprising should be targeting these sorts of people's offices and the like if property damage if the goal, make it about them, directly impact them so that they have to give a shit. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
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Emnjay808
United States10641 Posts
WHY would I WANT to do dishes?! Anyways, Hawaii is having peaceful protests but honestly no one gives a shit. The amount of virtue signaling from it is fucking blinding. Don’t get me started with people posting black screens on social media. The point is to let voices be heard, not make it a repost challenge. I took time off from work today cause everything is just so stressing, excuse my rant. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
On June 03 2020 04:47 Artisreal wrote: How do you come to this conclusion. Which voices did you hear? Where are their manifestos which you deem radical? Great question. I came to it from observing my news feed on Facebook, filled with Minneapolis and surrounding metro area activists of all color. Here is one of many examples of a post that is being shared ad nauseam (by you guessed it... mostly white people) telling people to shame those that try to distance us from the bad parts of the movement. https://i.postimg.cc/DyqF75q2/100929460-10163459829615705-1141239550044012544-n.jpg Here is George Floyd's brother giving this "white privilege" opinion https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/s-not-going-bring-my-brother-back-george-floyd-s-n1221306?fbclid=IwAR1NpHEMkbRXVzwjvIL9QiCs5e5kP3wkskQSrGA2J9tVuRdrIJz36AjQ3ZA Clearly this man does not have white privilege. In my circle, white voices are silenced if they try to distance the movement from the violence. Thus the combined black and white voices that overlook the violence (which tend to be young, millennials who have honestly spent the least time amount of time living in this corrupt social environment and learning how the system works) drown out the older black and white voices against the violence (since all whites who speak up are discounted and since older people tend to be less present on social media). This is my first hand source as someone who grew up in Minneapolis and lived their almost all of my life... in uptown. My friends are mostly left wing, and all come from the metro and suburban areas around the city. Don't get caught up on the word "radical'. I mean it to distinguish those that address the destructive aspects of the movement and want to 'nip them in the bud'.. and those that think the ones addressing them and trying to 'nip them in the bud' are liars who aren't down for the cause. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 03 2020 05:26 GreenHorizons wrote: Bronx Congressman was caught on a hot mic saying that if it weren't for getting primaried he "wouldn't care". A blatant and concise refutation of puppykillers argument. https://twitter.com/emilyngo/status/1267873270218600448 This guy is out. Now and forever, OUT. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
On June 03 2020 05:26 GreenHorizons wrote: Bronx Congressman was caught on a hot mic saying that if it weren't for getting primaried he "wouldn't care". A blatant and concise refutation of puppykillers argument. https://twitter.com/emilyngo/status/1267873270218600448 LOLOL that supports my argument. He just said he only cares cause of (peaceful) voting! Wow that is embarrassing for you! If anything all the violence is just gonna make right wing people wanna vote for more police protection cuz their scared shitless. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9234 Posts
On June 03 2020 05:35 puppykiller wrote: Great question. I came to it from observing my news feed on Facebook, filled with Minneapolis and surrounding metro area activists of all color. Here is one of many examples of a post that is being shared ad nauseam (by you guessed it... mostly white people) telling people to shame those that try to distance us from the bad parts of the movement. https://i.postimg.cc/DyqF75q2/100929460-10163459829615705-1141239550044012544-n.jpg Here is George Floyd's brother giving this "white privilege" opinion https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/s-not-going-bring-my-brother-back-george-floyd-s-n1221306?fbclid=IwAR1NpHEMkbRXVzwjvIL9QiCs5e5kP3wkskQSrGA2J9tVuRdrIJz36AjQ3ZA Clearly this man does not have white privilege. In my circle, white voices are silenced if they try to distance the movement from the violence. Thus the combined black and white voices that overlook the violence (which tend to be young, millennials who have honestly spent the least time amount of time living in this corrupt social environment and learning how the system works) drown out the older black and white voices against the violence (since all whites who speak up are discounted and since older people tend to be less present on social media). This is my first hand source as someone who grew up in Minneapolis and lived their almost all of my life... in uptown. My friends are mostly left wing, and all come from the metro and suburban areas around the city. Don't get caught up on the word "radical'. I mean it to distinguish from those that address the destructive aspects of the movement and want to 'nip them in the bud'.. and those that think the ones addressing them and trying to 'nip them in the bud' are liars who aren't down for the cause. Thank you for answering. I have used facebook and have not had an account since I deleted the one colleagues made for me in... let me think... early 2010s? So this kind of voicing and silencing is completely out of my own personal sphere and I have trouble understandin what being on FB/twitter entails, especially regarding voicing opinions. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On June 03 2020 05:23 ChristianS wrote: You’re right, it’s about broader injustice in the criminal justice system, not just about this particularly heinous instance. Might not want to make it as broad as “any and all injustice in the world;” does something like “the systematic denial of civil rights and due process in the criminal justice system, especially to minority groups” sound like a reasonable summary of the injustice we’re protesting? I think you’re maybe interpreting my questions as hostile or rhetorical. They’re not! If me and a few of my friends want to protest the injustice, but aren’t comfortable with violence, is the “right” way to do it to drive down to El Cajon after curfew and let the cops arrest us? What precautions should I take? Should I record the interactions with the cops? Tell friends/family to check in on me if they don’t hear from me? Should I wait until I don’t have work the next day? I’m not really trying to lose my job over this, but maybe that’s a silly fear. I think you and a few other smart allies should discuss that here and now. “the systematic denial of civil rights and due process in the criminal justice system, especially to minority groups” is narrow enough to have my support. But we might want to frontload the critical distinction between the general practice of denying people their rights and why it is happening to disproportionately Black and Indigenous peoples. The handful of people that take this opportunity up could end up inflaming a national action that leads to significant changes if they are thoughtful about it. Rather than rushing down to the police station bong in hand I'd suggest thinking along the lines of "Maybe this is something the large/well-resources/well-positioned organizations like NORML, LEAFLY, etc. could get behind? Do I know of any existing organizations I or people I know have established professional relationships with, or personal avenues of influence that could get on board? Perhaps they are more tangential and can't support something officially but can provide other forms of support? How can I get more people to ask themselves these questions so that we progress towards both presenting this idea to people and getting their support/participation?" From my perspective this can stand on its own as well. We could use a time machine and make the murder of George Floyd not happen and this is still a legitimate cause/effort. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
On June 03 2020 05:45 Artisreal wrote: Thank you for answering. I have used facebook and have not had an account since I deleted the one colleagues made for me in... let me think... early 2010s? So this kind of voicing and silencing is completely out of my own personal sphere and I have trouble understandin what being on FB/twitter entails, especially regarding voicing opinions. Cool man I'm happy we found common ground in this tough time. Lets keep figuring it out together and try to focus on finding the best possible solution. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 03 2020 05:37 puppykiller wrote: LOLOL that supports my argument. He just said he only cares cause of (peaceful) voting! Wow that is embarrassing for you! If anything all the violence is just gonna make right wing people wanna vote for more police protection cuz their scared shitless. How is that a support of your argument? Are you really so new to this that you don't know that 'peaceful voting' has been tried for years and got no results? You really think politicians - whose job it is to know things like this - have no idea what the manifesto of the reform the cops brigade is? The main argument is that the politicians don't give a shit, are proven to not give a shit, and this is the last resort. And here we have a politician admitting he doesn't give a shit. People are sick and tired of politicians pretending to care because its an election season, where they'll promise whatever they have to in order to get some votes, intending from the start to do nothing. But hey, if that's your idea of support for your argument, you do you. | ||
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StalkerTL
212 Posts
We’re still in the stage where they all claim that they hear the protests and want the status quo to come back in the meantime. | ||
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