EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2370
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:06 ChristianS wrote: I mean, that’s more or less the premise of civil disobedience, right? There’s an unjust law, so activists go peacefully violate that law and willingly go to jail for it. What’s powerful about it is that you’re morally unimpeachable; the only thing you’ve done “wrong” is whatever that law prohibited, and the reason it’s an unjust law is because doing that thing isn’t actually wrong. What I don’t know is how civil disobedience applies to unjust lawlessness. George Floyd wasn’t convicted under some unjust statute, allowed his day in court, and given the death penalty; he was murdered in the street. It’s less like “move to the back of the bus” and more like a lynching. So what unjust law is there to civilly disobey? You could break curfew, and get arrested for breaking curfew, but curfew isn’t the injustice, killing is. I’d like to read more about what MLK prescribed for protesting lynching, I don’t know enough about it myself. I’m not necessarily opposed to calling on all supposedly-sympathetic “violence isn’t the answer” types to go break curfew and let themselves get arrested, but is that the prescription? I’m not doing anything this Friday, I’d consider it. Injustice is what people are supposed to be protesting. This sharp one of the murder of Floyd and the larger systemic ones that don't go away even if his accomplices are arrested and they are all convicted and serve a full sentence (still far from certain). For me they could pick their personal preference of disobedience that gets them arrested. The idea that curfew laws aren't what they are protesting so breaking that rule invalidates their cause is not something I accept as reasonable. On June 03 2020 03:14 Artisreal wrote: what you're really saying is that if enough decent cops are around, the problem wouldnt exist. Though not only are bad cops the problem, but racism pervading society allowing them to commit capital crimes in front of cameras and not just get off scot free, but also alter the lives of those who dare speak out against them to the worst. Bringing out a singluar instance of things supposedly "working out fine" is as oversimplified and anecdotal as it gets as well. They know what they're doing. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
If we are rallied behind a clear defined cause or a leader, with clear demands some that can be implemented immediately, some later with an illuminated process then I think what you suggested is a terrific solution. But I think change can never work without these, I think they are an important component. I don't want to be another example of a failed peaceful protest that radicals use to justify escalating the situation. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On June 03 2020 02:53 puppykiller wrote: Since we are thinking outside the box, let's have members of the BLM movement join the police, so that they can handle police calls in a more just manner. Wasn't that the point of having more PoC in the police ? I wonder if we could find any kind of statistics on the % of poc in the forces compared to the number of reports of police brutality | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21373 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:11 Danglars wrote: We both know that the 'extra-constitutional exercise of power' is because Congress is failing to act.I disagree with executive orders & how Trump relates to the Republican Party. The last thing people should want is someone like Trump empowered to do things that affect police across the country by fiat. That should stay. The trend of unilateral extra-constitutional exercise of power needs to end, even if it serves expediency. And Trumps more a symptom of an unacknowledged voting constituency, or maybe the beta test of a cure for previously unaddressed problems with American politics. The military equipment transfer program was instituted by legislative act, and should end in the same way if that’s what citizens (through their legislators) desire. I’m sure some really want that to happen, but the military did not sell the knee that knelt on George Floyd’s neck, or give him confidence to do so in full view of cameraphones without thinking of repercussions. Both in stopping the doing their job so that the President doesn't have to do it and in stopping the President from doing it. Its just like in an ordinary business. If someone is not doing his job another who shouldn't be doing it ends up having to do it because the work still needs to get done. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:19 puppykiller wrote: White. I'll show solidarity. But I think we need to both go to jail in your scenario. That is my personal offer, not everyone's but mine, take it or leave it, you might not like it, but that's where i stand. If we are rallied behind a clear defined cause or a leader, with clear demands some that can be implemented immediately, some later with an illuminated process then I think what you suggested is a terrific solution. But I think change can never work without these, I think they are an important component. I don't want to be another example of a failed peaceful protest that radicals use to justify escalating the situation. Leave it. It says all it needs to. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9234 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:19 puppykiller wrote: White. I'll show solidarity. But I think we need to both go to jail in your scenario. That is my personal offer, not everyone's but mine, take it or leave it, you might not like it, but that's where i stand. If we are rallied behind a clear defined cause or a leader, with clear demands some that can be implemented immediately, some later with an illuminated process then I think what you suggested is a terrific solution. But I think change can never work without these, I think they are an important component. I don't want to be another example of a failed peaceful protest that radicals use to justify escalating the situation. That offer possibly would be fair if both of you had the same % of dying while being arrested for peacefully protesting or while in a police ward. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
Radical does not equal progressive.There are a lot of people who want to change the system. So basically you are trying to use public shame tactics to make sure your specific solution is the solution. I'm interested in solidarity, I won't succumb to this gas-lighting though. I can be other people's ally, I don't think I can be yours. If you think that makes me not an ally, then you think your perspective is the objective perspective. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21373 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:29 puppykiller wrote: Hm, some protest that everyone can get behind, peaceful, respectful and solidarity without fear.Basically what I'm seeing is the most radical black's are the only who have voices right now in the movement. Tons of black people speaking up against the radical solution, but whites are afraid of supporting anyone besides the most radical black voices because if they do... both radical whites and blacks publicly shame them. Radical does not equal progressive.There are a lot of people who want to change the system. So basically you are trying to use public shame tactics to make sure your specific solution is the solution. I'm interested in solidarity, I won't succumb to this gas-lighting though. I can be other people's ally, I don't think I can be yours. If you think that makes me not an ally, then you think your perspective is the objective perspective. I know, lets kneel during the national anthem.... | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:32 Gorsameth wrote: Hm, some protest that everyone can get behind, peaceful, respectful and solidarity without fear. I know, lets kneel during the national anthem.... Guess I can't be your ally either? Sorry for having standards. Hopefully some other people can be brave enough to have standards too. Totally for change, just think a few of you guys are wrong. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:29 puppykiller wrote: Basically what I'm seeing is the most radical black's are the only who have voices right now in the movement. Tons of black people speaking up against the radical solution, but whites are afraid of supporting anyone besides the most radical black voices because if they do... both radical whites and blacks publicly shame them. Radical does not equal progressive.There are a lot of people who want to change the system. So basically you are trying to use public shame tactics to make sure your specific solution is the solution. What you're seeing and what is happening are two different things. Notice there's plenty of support in media, politicians, and among folks like Danglars for the self-policing of protesters, insistence on keeping things peaceful, and a detailed plan (as if they haven't been provided and ignored/rejected for decades). Shame is a personal thing, I'm merely pointing out that if white people want to demonstrate that they support Black people's civil rights they could make the minor sacrifice of overwhelming the jail system (should be many millions more people than needed). It's easy for people to say the systemic violence is unacceptable to them, but the reticence/indignance at a simple and effective way to demonstrate it says everything. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
If I see another post about how the movement against police violence does not have clear demands I might resort to violence against my eyeballs. Please just go look them up. It’s not hard. Or just use your imagination. It’s not hard to come to the conclusion that police are institutionalized violent oppressors and probably can’t be saved at this point. The whole body camera thing and training in de escalation and all this other bs has clearly done nothing. Here in Portland we made a big show of hiring unarmed peace officers and had a big photo op with the mayor and half of them just moved to being regular police officers shortly after. And of course we are using tear gas and the like on peaceful protestors all the same. It’s all bullshit. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
And if you don't think that shows at all if we are being heard. Then please tell me something quantifiable and immediate politicians can do to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt we are being heard. Then lets talk about rallying around crying that out. Otherwise I think you are just interested in breaking things, not trying to fix things. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15401 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:29 puppykiller wrote: Basically what I'm seeing is the most radical black's are the only who have voices right now in the movement. Tons of black people speaking up against the radical solution, but whites are afraid of supporting anyone besides the most radical black voices because if they do... both radical whites and blacks publicly shame them. Radical does not equal progressive.There are a lot of people who want to change the system. So basically you are trying to use public shame tactics to make sure your specific solution is the solution. I'm interested in solidarity, I won't succumb to this gas-lighting though. I can be other people's ally, I don't think I can be yours. If you think that makes me not an ally, then you think your perspective is the objective perspective. I don't think anyone is worried about you thinking that or not having you in the movement. People are presenting a situation that is 100% intolerable: police executions of Black People, and then reacting as is appropriate in intolerable situations. You get to decide how tolerable a situation is. If I am working from home, showering isn't urgent. If I am actively on fire, it is urgent and I need to just dive in some water. Similarly, Black People being executed by police, then police being tried differently than normal citizens, is urgent. Again, if you disagree with the urgency, you may act that way. No one is stopping you, but we will label you how we see fit based on that. But you need to understand that there are situations with varying degrees of urgency and require differing amounts of action. We see the issue as amazingly urgent that requires kicking the door down. If you see it as gas lighting, you will find people aren't really bothered by that. I think you are assuming a certain level of desirability that just isn't there. You aren't some kinda representative. You are an individual. On June 03 2020 03:52 puppykiller wrote: So kinda where I'm coming from with the whole demands thing isnt that theyve been laid out. It's that they need to be what people are posting about and demanding politicians address in their speeches. That is the only way we can see if we are being heard. The demand is for all police officers to never be treated any differently from an every day citizen based on the violence they conduct. All 4 cops need to be arrested yesterday. When cops are afraid of the law, they will act differently. Currently, it is mostly fine when cops kill someone because they are cops. That is bad and people are asking for that to change. I'm not going to spend any more time spoon feeding you information. You are your own person and you owe it to yourself to be educated. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22736 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:52 puppykiller wrote: So kinda where I'm coming from with the whole demands thing isnt that theyve been laid out. It's that they need to be what people are posting about and demanding politicians address in their speeches. That is the only way we can see if we are being heard. And if you don't think that shows at all if we are being heard. Then please tell me something quantifiable and immediate politicians can do to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt we are being heard. Then lets talk about rallying around crying that out. Otherwise I think you are just interested in breaking things, not trying to fix things. No they aren't. If people aren't aware of what politicians can do it is because they have willfully ignored it. What should be discussed is how to force politicians to do them. Think my overwhelming the jail system has been the best presented thus far, but I'm open to others. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:37 BlueBird. wrote: The clear demands were laid out years ago in the last election cycle, there is nothing new here. They probably existed long before then but I remember greenhorizons Specifically laying out the demands for the BLM movement some time around when those young women took bernies mic in protest in WA. This conversation has happened multiple times in this very thread. If I see another post about how the movement against police violence does not have clear demands I might resort to violence against my eyeballs. Please just go look them up. It’s not hard. Or just use your imagination. It’s not hard to come to the conclusion that police are institutionalized violent oppressors and probably can’t be saved at this point. The whole body camera thing and training in de escalation and all this other bs has clearly done nothing. Here in Portland we made a big show of hiring unarmed peace officers and had a big photo op with the mayor and half of them just moved to being regular police officers shortly after. And of course we are using tear gas and the like on peaceful protestors all the same. It’s all bullshit. There wasn't anybody tear gassed last night in Portland? I know there was arrests, but those arrests also retrieved guns. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote: No they aren't. If people aren't aware of what politicians can do it is because they have willfully ignored it. What should be discussed is how to force politicians to do them. Think my overwhelming the jail system has been the best presented thus far, but I'm open to others. Responding to this and yesterday's conversation: I'll admit that I'm starting to come around to your side of the argument as far as viewing recent events in a historical context and recognizing the motivations and raw human emotion behind them. I still don't condone some of what I've seen.. but I'm starting to understand it more. In the spirit of yesterdays conversation I was trying to think of alternate ways I would go about trying to effect change, and I've gotta admit I kinda like your idea. If the idea is to overwhelm the jail systems to highlight racism in the justice system in this country, I'm still not gonna shatter some innocent business owner's windows to get myself arrested, but smoking weed in front of a police station or something like that sounds good | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On June 03 2020 03:57 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Seems like, at the moment, there's a disconnect between understanding the issues at hand and the methods wanted to address the issues at hand. I think some here understand where the other is coming from and simply ignoring it, while others seem to not understand and aren't willing to. The method of getting voices/demands heard is what I believe puppykiller wants to talk about and how those methods can be effectively initiated without the wanton violence. Others claim everything has been tried and ignored so therefore, wanton violence in the guise of protests are the only way forward. Wanted to highlight the last part of your post here, as I was in spirited debates in here on this exact topic yesterday. I still have my issues with the violence that I lived through first hand quite recently, and I don't think that they are the way forward because we've tried everything already. As I said before, I don't have all the answers but I don't think that violence is it, and I appreciate initiatives to look for them elsewhere. Just out of curiosity, whats your stance? | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On June 03 2020 04:04 ShoCkeyy wrote: There wasn't anybody tear gassed last night in Portland? I know there was arrests, but those arrests also retrieved guns. I didn’t say anything about last night ? | ||
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