Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
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On June 03 2020 06:57 StalkerTL wrote: The last time politicians were made to care was when the police started beating up on actual children. That was a step too far for white America.
It is interesting to wonder how things would change if young white children occupied the space between the police and the most antagonistic protesters.
Particularly if it couldn't be blamed on their parents, so something in the vein of the school climate strikes.
We’re still in the stage where they all claim that they hear the protests and want the status quo to come back in the meantime.
The demand to vote for them anyway will get louder as we get closer to the election. Ridden this ride too many times before.
On June 03 2020 06:57 StalkerTL wrote: The last time politicians were made to care was when the police started beating up on actual children. That was a step too far for white America.
We’re still in the stage where they all claim that they hear the protests and want the status quo to come back in the meantime.
I can't agree with this. It seems to me that the "status quo" has been years and years of racial injustice in this country, and nobody wants to go back to that. I think we are all collectively searching for the way forward.
On June 03 2020 06:57 StalkerTL wrote: The last time politicians were made to care was when the police started beating up on actual children. That was a step too far for white America.
We’re still in the stage where they all claim that they hear the protests and want the status quo to come back in the meantime.
I can't agree with this. It seems to me that the "status quo" has been years and years of racial injustice in this country, and nobody wants to go back to that. I think we are all collectively searching for the way forward.
That line was old when people told it to MLK and Baldwin
On June 03 2020 06:57 StalkerTL wrote: The last time politicians were made to care was when the police started beating up on actual children. That was a step too far for white America.
We’re still in the stage where they all claim that they hear the protests and want the status quo to come back in the meantime.
I can't agree with this. It seems to me that the "status quo" has been years and years of racial injustice in this country, and nobody wants to go back to that. I think we are all collectively searching for the way forward.
Do you think all the people complaining about the kneeling NFL players being disrespectful where not fine with the status quo of racial injustice?
Look back at the changes the GOP went through when (part of) the right lost their minds because a black man was elected President and tell me with a strait face that a significant part of America is not happy with racial injustice.
My personal experiences seem to differ with many of those on here. I can say anecdotally that there are still people who think that George Floyd deserved what he got because he resisted arrest, and that the police are too soft on protesters.
On June 03 2020 07:12 farvacola wrote: My personal experiences seem to differ with many of those on here. I can say anecdotally that there are still people who think that George Floyd deserved what he got because he resisted arrest, and that the police are too soft on protesters.
With who does that experience differ? I thought most people here agreed that there are a bunch of crazy hard-right people in the US who are totally fine with killing uppity blacks?
On June 03 2020 07:12 farvacola wrote: My personal experiences seem to differ with many of those on here. I can say anecdotally that there are still people who think that George Floyd deserved what he got because he resisted arrest, and that the police are too soft on protesters.
With who does that experience differ? I thought most people here agreed that there are a bunch of crazy hard-right people in the US who are totally fine with killing uppity blacks?
I think it is easy to spot on the far-right, people have a harder time seeing that centrists and liberals are pushing a lot of the same stuff with more strategic language. Variations of "Go back to doing the stuff we could ignore. Believe our platitudes again. Vote!".
On June 03 2020 06:57 StalkerTL wrote: The last time politicians were made to care was when the police started beating up on actual children. That was a step too far for white America.
We’re still in the stage where they all claim that they hear the protests and want the status quo to come back in the meantime.
I can't agree with this. It seems to me that the "status quo" has been years and years of racial injustice in this country, and nobody wants to go back to that. I think we are all collectively searching for the way forward.
That line was old when people told it to MLK and Baldwin
C'mon man what else do we have? There has to be a way forward in here somewhere.
I agree that the line was old 50 years ago, and its even older today. But what else are we going to do, give up and torch the whole thing?
Maybe its because I'm only 27 but I'm just not ready to give up. Sometimes I get the sense that you're ready to.
On June 03 2020 06:57 StalkerTL wrote: The last time politicians were made to care was when the police started beating up on actual children. That was a step too far for white America.
We’re still in the stage where they all claim that they hear the protests and want the status quo to come back in the meantime.
I can't agree with this. It seems to me that the "status quo" has been years and years of racial injustice in this country, and nobody wants to go back to that. I think we are all collectively searching for the way forward.
That line was old when people told it to MLK and Baldwin
C'mon man what else do we have? There has to be a way forward in here somewhere.
I agree that the line was old 50 years ago, and its even older today. But what else are we going to do, give up and torch the whole thing?
Maybe its because I'm only 27 but I'm just not ready to give up. Sometimes I get the sense that you're ready to.
I'm with Baldwin and what he said 30+ years ago. We need a white history week because the answers you seek are in your history, not in me.
On June 03 2020 07:12 farvacola wrote: My personal experiences seem to differ with many of those on here. I can say anecdotally that there are still people who think that George Floyd deserved what he got because he resisted arrest, and that the police are too soft on protesters.
What I've got a lot of are people who basically say:
"Protest, I support, and I agree police reform is needed. But please do it in a way that I don't actually need to pay attention to and without impacting a single aspect of my life"
As if that wasn't everything that was happening before the protests. It is maddening.
I'm not quite sure where to post this or what to say about it, except that if the protests had been armed, this would not have been allowed or the body count would have been much, much higher. There are videos of protests in Hollywood getting larger and some groups trapped against a hill being massed and tear gassed. You can scroll down this thread to see more if you'd like. Placed in spoiler. + Show Spoiler +
On June 03 2020 07:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I'm not quite sure where to post this or what to say about it, except that if the protests had been armed, this would not have been allowed or the body count would have been much, much higher. There are videos of protests in Hollywood getting larger and some groups trapped against a hill being massed and tear gassed. You can scroll down this thread to see more if you'd like. Placed in spoiler. + Show Spoiler +
On June 03 2020 02:49 GreenHorizons wrote: I know some people prefer peaceful protests, others more radical action as expressions of unheard masses, but I have an idea.
Why not have the millions of white americans that find this violence unacceptable all get arrested (as peacefully as they prefer)?
Seems like a pretty practical way to stress the system to a breaking point and takes very little effort from people supportive of Black people's civil rights.
I mean, that’s more or less the premise of civil disobedience, right? There’s an unjust law, so activists go peacefully violate that law and willingly go to jail for it. What’s powerful about it is that you’re morally unimpeachable; the only thing you’ve done “wrong” is whatever that law prohibited, and the reason it’s an unjust law is because doing that thing isn’t actually wrong.
What I don’t know is how civil disobedience applies to unjust lawlessness. George Floyd wasn’t convicted under some unjust statute, allowed his day in court, and given the death penalty; he was murdered in the street. It’s less like “move to the back of the bus” and more like a lynching. So what unjust law is there to civilly disobey? You could break curfew, and get arrested for breaking curfew, but curfew isn’t the injustice, killing is.
I’d like to read more about what MLK prescribed for protesting lynching, I don’t know enough about it myself. I’m not necessarily opposed to calling on all supposedly-sympathetic “violence isn’t the answer” types to go break curfew and let themselves get arrested, but is that the prescription? I’m not doing anything this Friday, I’d consider it.
Injustice is what people are supposed to be protesting. This sharp one of the murder of Floyd and the larger systemic ones that don't go away even if his accomplices are arrested and they are all convicted and serve a full sentence (still far from certain).
For me they could pick their personal preference of disobedience that gets them arrested. The idea that curfew laws aren't what they are protesting so breaking that rule invalidates their cause is not something I accept as reasonable.
You’re right, it’s about broader injustice in the criminal justice system, not just about this particularly heinous instance. Might not want to make it as broad as “any and all injustice in the world;” does something like “the systematic denial of civil rights and due process in the criminal justice system, especially to minority groups” sound like a reasonable summary of the injustice we’re protesting?
I think you’re maybe interpreting my questions as hostile or rhetorical. They’re not! If me and a few of my friends want to protest the injustice, but aren’t comfortable with violence, is the “right” way to do it to drive down to El Cajon after curfew and let the cops arrest us?
What precautions should I take? Should I record the interactions with the cops? Tell friends/family to check in on me if they don’t hear from me? Should I wait until I don’t have work the next day? I’m not really trying to lose my job over this, but maybe that’s a silly fear.
I think you and a few other smart allies should discuss that here and now.
“the systematic denial of civil rights and due process in the criminal justice system, especially to minority groups”
is narrow enough to have my support. But we might want to frontload the critical distinction between the general practice of denying people their rights and why it is happening to disproportionately Black and Indigenous peoples.
The handful of people that take this opportunity up could end up inflaming a national action that leads to significant changes if they are thoughtful about it. Rather than rushing down to the police station bong in hand I'd suggest thinking along the lines of
"Maybe this is something the large/well-resources/well-positioned organizations like NORML, LEAFLY, etc. could get behind?
Do I know of any existing organizations I or people I know have established professional relationships with, or personal avenues of influence that could get on board? Perhaps they are more tangential and can't support something officially but can provide other forms of support?
How can I get more people to ask themselves these questions so that we progress towards both presenting this idea to people and getting their support/participation?"
From my perspective this can stand on its own as well. We could use a time machine and make the murder of George Floyd not happen and this is still a legitimate cause/effort.
I’m gonna stop asking a bunch of hyper-specific questions because it feels like me trying to turn the thread into you giving me advice on how to protest injustice. But I’ll just say I reached out to my wife and best friend, and they were both independently planning to talk to me about getting involved in some sort of protest. We’re still working out the details, but I’m gonna try to write a blog about it. I can’t promise we’ll wind up doing anything as radical as you’d advocate, but we have to do something.
If I wind up changing my mind and staying home, I’m chickenshit and you should tell me so.
On June 03 2020 05:26 GreenHorizons wrote: Bronx Congressman was caught on a hot mic saying that if it weren't for getting primaried he "wouldn't care". A blatant and concise refutation of puppykillers argument.
LOLOL that supports my argument. He just said he only cares cause of (peaceful) voting! Wow that is embarrassing for you!
If anything all the violence is just gonna make right wing people wanna vote for more police protection cuz their scared shitless.
They’re already doing that. An NFL player taking the knee was too much for many of them.
They’ll say they’re turned off by this violence when they were already long ago turned off the cause by their own worldview.
Now, as to what proportion of the population they actually are is another thing entirely.
I’m sure they exist but the cohort of pro police reform people who changed their tune with the looting can’t be that large. At least based on my social media it’s split between people who support the cause, find the rioting regrettable and people who go ‘what about black crime statistics’ and were never remotely receptive to the cause.
I think when people say "Well why not be polite about protesting", they are highlighting the fact that they have not been paying attention to activism for the last 20 years. There are so many instances of being more polite and that's kind of the whole point. No one remembers that. No one gave a shit. It is only when people get rowdy that people pay attention.
Buzzfeed found documents that the DEA has been given special powers to conduct covert surveillance on protestors and do investigations and make arrests.
The Drug Enforcement Administration has been granted sweeping new authority to “conduct covert surveillance” and collect intelligence on people participating in protests over the police killing of George Floyd, according to a two-page memorandum obtained by BuzzFeed News.
Floyd’s death “has spawned widespread protests across the nation, which, in some instances, have included violence and looting,” the DEA memo says. “Police agencies in certain areas of the country have struggled to maintain and/or restore order.” The memo requests the extraordinary powers on a temporary basis, and on Sunday afternoon a senior Justice Department official signed off.
The DEA is limited by statute to enforcing drug-related federal crimes. But on Sunday, Timothy Shea, a former US attorney and close confidant of Barr's who was named acting administrator of the DEA last month, received approval from Associate Deputy Attorney General Bradley Weinsheimer to go beyond the agency’s mandate “to perform other law enforcement duties” that Barr may “deem appropriate.”
Citing the protests, Shea lays out an argument for why the agency should be granted extraordinary latitude.
“In order for DEA to assist to the maximum extent possible in the federal law enforcement response to protests which devolve into violations of federal law, DEA requests that it be designated to enforce any federal crime committed as a result of protests over the death of George Floyd,” Shea wrote in the memo. “DEA requests this authority on a nationwide basis for a period of fourteen days.”
On June 03 2020 05:26 GreenHorizons wrote: Bronx Congressman was caught on a hot mic saying that if it weren't for getting primaried he "wouldn't care". A blatant and concise refutation of puppykillers argument.
LOLOL that supports my argument. He just said he only cares cause of (peaceful) voting! Wow that is embarrassing for you!
If anything all the violence is just gonna make right wing people wanna vote for more police protection cuz their scared shitless.
How is that a support of your argument?
Are you really so new to this that you don't know that 'peaceful voting' has been tried for years and got no results? You really think politicians - whose job it is to know things like this - have no idea what the manifesto of the reform the cops brigade is?
The main argument is that the politicians don't give a shit, are proven to not give a shit, and this is the last resort. And here we have a politician admitting he doesn't give a shit.
People are sick and tired of politicians pretending to care because its an election season, where they'll promise whatever they have to in order to get some votes, intending from the start to do nothing.
But hey, if that's your idea of support for your argument, you do you.
I'm arguing for a peaceful solution, GH is arguing peaceful solutions won't work.
This is a politicians admitting the only reason he is involving himself in this is because he cares about votes (a peaceful solution), not because he cares about rioting (a violent solution).
Thus the politician is being incentivized to be an ally for change by peaceful solutions rather than violent solutions.
If he didn't make any real change during his term, you can not reelect him, since votes is something he seems to care about.
EPT
