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On May 31 2020 19:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
That’s me as a white guy across the Atlantic, I can only imagine how minorities in the US who’ve put up with such a state of affairs for far too long feel, can’t blame people for rioting hell wish people took the riot option more often
Well as a minority in the U.S. - one whose parents were born in Afghanistan, who was born in Jackson Heights, Queens (AOC's district), grew up in South Jamaica, Queens (black neighborhood in NYC - think 50 cent), went to high school in the Bronx, and did much of my medical training in the bronx, and a brown person who has lived in NYC post 9/11 and has even been to jail - I don't think you can imagine. I'm not trying to insult you - it's just that America is such an outlier in the developed world, and US ghettos are probably the worst aspect of the developed world, and are something most American have no clue about.
What I can tell you, however, is that rioting like this is doing nothing good for the black community, minority community, whatever you want to call it. There ARE other ways to escape and change things. I'll give you an example - My city, which is over 50% black and hispanic, voted for MIKE BLOOMBERG (the guy who got slaughtered in the dem primaries large in part because of his racist PD policies) an unprecedented THREE TIMES. The problem runs deep. The answer to police brutality and corruption is not to be solved by destroying and alienating innocent people.
I understand the sense of nihilism that those of inner cities feel, but I will never condone the or rationalize the destruction of innocent people's lives.
I would bet the farm that the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. This is devastating in all senses. And it affects people from many walks of life.
Anybody who thinks these riots are a good thing for change, and represent even a modicum of progress, is delusional. Innocent lives on all sides are ruined, people on all sides are demonized, small businesses are wrecked, the country becomes fractured, the government gets excuses to exert more and more power, and some people actually think this is a good thing? I bet the Elites are shaking in their boots.....NOT
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the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either.
Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they purportedly represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity.
It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived.
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On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived.
What do you think of the reports from Detroit etc. that the protests themselves are having tensions, with the black people getting pissed at white people coopting the issue to 'live out their riot fantasies'?
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On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they purportedly represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived.
Maybe leaders is not the right word. I'm not talking about the "leaders" involved in politics, many of which failed/sold out - agreed.
I'm talking about the community figures - the boys club leaders, teachers, local preachers, coaches - anyone who tries to mentor kids in the hood but are fighting a losing battle. The ones who actually care.
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On May 31 2020 20:31 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 19:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
That’s me as a white guy across the Atlantic, I can only imagine how minorities in the US who’ve put up with such a state of affairs for far too long feel, can’t blame people for rioting hell wish people took the riot option more often Well as a minority in the U.S. - one whose parents were born in Afghanistan, who was born in Jackson Heights, Queens (AOC's district), grew up in South Jamaica, Queens (black neighborhood in NYC - think 50 cent), went to high school in the Bronx, and did much of my medical training in the bronx, and a brown person who has lived in NYC post 9/11 and has even been to jail - I don't think you can imagine. I'm not trying to insult you - it's just that America is such an outlier in the developed world, and US ghettos are probably the worst aspect of the developed world, and are something most American have no clue about. What I can tell you, however, is that rioting like this is doing nothing good for the black community, minority community, whatever you want to call it. There ARE other ways to escape and change things. I'll give you an example - My city, which is over 50% black and hispanic, voted for MIKE BLOOMBERG (the guy who got slaughtered in the dem primaries large in part because of his racist PD policies) an unprecedented THREE TIMES. The problem runs deep. The answer to police brutality and corruption is not to be solved by destroying and alienating innocent people. I understand the sense of nihilism that those of inner cities feel, but I will never condone the or rationalize the destruction of innocent people's lives. I would bet the farm that the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. This is devastating in all senses. And it affects people from many walks of life. Anybody who thinks these riots are a good thing for change, and represent even a modicum of progress, is delusional. Innocent lives on all sides are ruined, people on all sides are demonized, small businesses are wrecked, the country becomes fractured, the government gets excuses to exert more and more power, and some people actually think this is a good thing? I bet the Elites are shaking in their boots.....NOT
My grandparents are from Jackson Heights, it's where my dad grew up. I've heard it's the most diverse neighborhood in all of New York.
I think a real good portion of people who are supporting the arson and looting don't live in the areas actually being burned and looted. My parents still live in uptown Minneapolis, the place I spent the first 20~ years of my life. They said the whole community is traumatized. Everyone in the neighborhood is realling in shock from the destruction. Those videos of Minneapolis circulating on YouTube... I know everyone of those locations. And often when we grieve outside of our community, we just get someone telling us that all of this is justice. Well if you think it's justice burn your own house down. Drive your car in front of a camera crew and set it on fire to send your message. I won't accept this justice argument till I see one of you posting about it throw your own community under the bus.
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On May 31 2020 20:47 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived. What do you think of the reports from Detroit etc. that the protests themselves are having tensions, with the black people getting pissed at white people coopting the issue to 'live out their riot fantasies'?
I can picture this happening, 100%
There is no way teachers, clergy, coaches, etc of black communities - the people who fight to bring the community up every single day - are approving of destroying people's lives and belligerence towards police.
Nobody who works day in and day out for the community to come up cheers for this nonsense. Anyone who has lived in these communities knows that's not what they want. I can see people who actually care about the community supporting peaceful protests having tensions with agitators who show up all of a sudden after a big media event.
Very disheartening.
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On May 31 2020 20:56 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they purportedly represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived. Maybe leaders is not the right word. I'm not talking about the "leaders" involved in politics, many of which failed/sold out - agreed. I'm talking about the community figures - the boys club leaders, teachers, local preachers, coaches - anyone who tries to mentor kids in the hood but are fighting a losing battle. The ones who actually care.
That's typically divided along class lines and people that are worried about when they go back to work with the white authorities in those systems taking retribution on them and their efforts.
Alternatively it's just survival instinct, which is really just a separation between people that would rather die on their feet than live on their knees imo.
That said there's a strain of choose your battles wisely with some substance but only from those with some familiarity with the underlying revolutionary theory, not blind appeasement to fascists.
EDIT: To be clear, I think we'd all just like if america got it's shit together without riots or even protests this many decades into this issue.
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On May 31 2020 21:04 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 20:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived. What do you think of the reports from Detroit etc. that the protests themselves are having tensions, with the black people getting pissed at white people coopting the issue to 'live out their riot fantasies'? I can picture this happening, 100% There is no way teachers, clergy, coaches, etc of black communities - the people who fight to bring the community up every single day - are approving of destroying people's lives and belligerence towards police. Nobody who works day in and day out for the community to come up cheers for this nonsense. Anyone who has lived in these communities knows that's not what they want. I can see people who actually care about the community supporting peaceful protests having tensions with agitators who show up all of a sudden after a big media event. Very disheartening.
Generally I'm supportive of the riots in as far as they are frustration at this issue being ignored.
You have to accept that there's organized groups here who only want to make the riots worse, but from the outside its difficult to know where I stand on it.
Overall though, I think the issue of rioting is extremely minor compared to the issue of police brutality and the ongoing totalitarian response to the protests.
I would rather be wrong supporting what appears to be mostly riots borne out of frustration than support the justice system which even now appears to be mostly concerned with protecting itself against change and using violence to do so..
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Northern Ireland23845 Posts
On May 31 2020 20:11 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 19:39 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 31 2020 19:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2020 18:57 puppykiller wrote:
This all feels like a Black Mirror episode on how social media escalates conflicts. Anytime an idiot protester does something stupid (anywhere in our huge country), it gets posted. Anytime an idiot cop does something stupid (anywhere in our huge country) it gets posted. Whatever narrative people already believe gets validated by their news feed and the opposing sides get depicted as violent, irrational, boogeymen. Rumors with very little evidence circulate, and are accepted with little hesitation (so long as they fit the narrative) and people become radical, narrow-minded, and unable to reflect critically with their own nuanced viewpoint. Polarity is exacerbated. Popular influencers teach you through tweets how to rationalize the world around you, tell you what role you play in it and give you the very words to use to condemn those who oppose you. This has been going on for a long time, but this is the first time I've seen it get this bad.
All you on the Left consider this. What do you think the Right is seeing at this moment? Probably posts glorifying 'hero' cops and vilifying rioters. Probably lieing tweets telling them that the protesters and looters are the same because the protesters aren't stopping the arsonists. How do you think this is gonna all end? If people stay wrapped up their mob-mentality depictions of those that oppose them, it will only end in violence. It is bizarre to me you think folks haven't considered that. The notion that "it will only end in violence" implies that the uprising wasn't a response to incessant and unaccountable violence in the first place. Plus it’s not as if the right doesn’t incessantly do those things anyway. Any time a black man is shot, however patently unjustifiably they’ll get digging to portray the victim as a criminal if he has a record, or dig up whatever other dirt they can find to deflect. Hell I saw a post that George Floyd had done pornography. No idea if it’s true, it would be immaterial to my feelings about his horrific death but it’s patently obvious that the dog whistles are out in full force. The far right have shown their tactical hand over many years, it’s hiding behind non-violence to spread their wings into other nooks and crannies. The free speech zealots and the ‘just facts’ crowd have let the far right cosy up to them and use their platforms precisely because they have this huge blind spot over what even constitutes violence. Said neighbouring groups also give Antifa a real disproportionate amount of space in their discourse on various platforms, which makes a lot of sense given who is sidling into their various territories. it is pretty regrettable that the far right was able to drag in so many people by using free speech as a political weapon. Unfortunately, the left shot itself in the foot by making itself look weak on the issue. It kind of reminds of the terrorist strategy where they try to agitate countries into making foreign policy blunders so that they can attract more recruits who are radicalized by the foreign policy blunders, and the process begets itself. The far right has been able to act in such a depraved manner that left wing people feel forced to censor them out of respect for common decency and that has brought people who hold free speech as sacred but otherwise were not far right into the fold. Of course, anyone with sense knows free speech is very important and the far right is also morally bankrupt but unfortunately, a lot of people like to view the world in a tribal manner.
Indeed, it’s a very tricky balancing act to try to counteract, and one that has not always been navigated with much alacrity by segments of the left.
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On May 31 2020 21:02 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 20:31 BerserkSword wrote:On May 31 2020 19:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
That’s me as a white guy across the Atlantic, I can only imagine how minorities in the US who’ve put up with such a state of affairs for far too long feel, can’t blame people for rioting hell wish people took the riot option more often Well as a minority in the U.S. - one whose parents were born in Afghanistan, who was born in Jackson Heights, Queens (AOC's district), grew up in South Jamaica, Queens (black neighborhood in NYC - think 50 cent), went to high school in the Bronx, and did much of my medical training in the bronx, and a brown person who has lived in NYC post 9/11 and has even been to jail - I don't think you can imagine. I'm not trying to insult you - it's just that America is such an outlier in the developed world, and US ghettos are probably the worst aspect of the developed world, and are something most American have no clue about. What I can tell you, however, is that rioting like this is doing nothing good for the black community, minority community, whatever you want to call it. There ARE other ways to escape and change things. I'll give you an example - My city, which is over 50% black and hispanic, voted for MIKE BLOOMBERG (the guy who got slaughtered in the dem primaries large in part because of his racist PD policies) an unprecedented THREE TIMES. The problem runs deep. The answer to police brutality and corruption is not to be solved by destroying and alienating innocent people. I understand the sense of nihilism that those of inner cities feel, but I will never condone the or rationalize the destruction of innocent people's lives. I would bet the farm that the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. This is devastating in all senses. And it affects people from many walks of life. Anybody who thinks these riots are a good thing for change, and represent even a modicum of progress, is delusional. Innocent lives on all sides are ruined, people on all sides are demonized, small businesses are wrecked, the country becomes fractured, the government gets excuses to exert more and more power, and some people actually think this is a good thing? I bet the Elites are shaking in their boots.....NOT My grandparents are from Jackson Heights, it's where my dad grew up. I've heard it's the most diverse neighborhood in all of New York. I think a real good portion of people who are supporting the arson and looting don't live in the areas actually being burned and looted. My parents still live in uptown Minneapolis, the place I spent the first 20~ years of my life. They said the whole community is traumatized. Those videos of Minneapolis circulating on YouTube... I know everyone of those locations. And often when we grieve outside of our community, we just get someone telling us that all of this is justice. Well if you think it's justice burn your own house down. Drive your car in front of a camera crew and set it on fire to send your message. I won't accept this justice argument till I see one of you posting about it throw your own community under the bus.
Yup, jackson heights is extremely diverse. Many brown (indian, pakistani, bangladeshi, afghan) people, many hispanics, and still a good number of asians and whites. It's as multicultural as you can get in the most diverse locality (queens) on the planet.
I agree 100% with you. The people who are cheering for these riots are clueless and are borderline ivory tower folk imo, or at least looking from the outside. They have no idea of the consequences for ALL parties involved. They have no idea about life in such places, what will happen going forward. No idea what it means for people who have been striving to bring themselves and the community up to lose everything.
There is nothing good about this.
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Northern Ireland23845 Posts
On May 31 2020 20:31 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 19:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
That’s me as a white guy across the Atlantic, I can only imagine how minorities in the US who’ve put up with such a state of affairs for far too long feel, can’t blame people for rioting hell wish people took the riot option more often Well as a minority in the U.S. - one whose parents were born in Afghanistan, who was born in Jackson Heights, Queens (AOC's district), grew up in South Jamaica, Queens (black neighborhood in NYC - think 50 cent), went to high school in the Bronx, and did much of my medical training in the bronx, and a brown person who has lived in NYC post 9/11 and has even been to jail - I don't think you can imagine. I'm not trying to insult you - it's just that America is such an outlier in the developed world, and US ghettos are probably the worst aspect of the developed world, and are something most American have no clue about. What I can tell you, however, is that rioting like this is doing nothing good for the black community, minority community, whatever you want to call it. There ARE other ways to escape and change things. I'll give you an example - My city, which is over 50% black and hispanic, voted for MIKE BLOOMBERG (the guy who got slaughtered in the dem primaries large in part because of his racist PD policies) an unprecedented THREE TIMES. The problem runs deep. The answer to police brutality and corruption is not to be solved by destroying and alienating innocent people. I understand the sense of nihilism that those of inner cities feel, but I will never condone the or rationalize the destruction of innocent people's lives. I would bet the farm that the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. This is devastating in all senses. And it affects people from many walks of life. Anybody who thinks these riots are a good thing for change, and represent even a modicum of progress, is delusional. Innocent lives on all sides are ruined, people on all sides are demonized, small businesses are wrecked, the country becomes fractured, the government gets excuses to exert more and more power, and some people actually think this is a good thing? I bet the Elites are shaking in their boots.....NOT
Not taken as an insult, was what I meant anyway albeit badly worded.
The riots could be a fantastic thing or a terrible thing, or somewhere between those extremes. People individually are hard enough to predict, never mind whole collective societies.
Maybe people shit themselves, or recognise the desperation and the boiling undercurrent of dangerous resentment and make meaningful changes, maybe it’s counter-productive, there’s an even more militaristic police crackdown and wider society is turned against the overall cause.
It’s not purely this issue either it’s a whole smorgasbord of grievance with police brutality being a catalyst.
Sadly a riot tends not to be too discerning once it gets going, plenty of places looted are quite happy to fuck over the innocent via entirely legitimate means.
Quaking in the boots would be a stretch perhaps, the more privileged in society are generally so against any form of protest that is even vaguely disruptive to their day, never mind destructive and violent because they do fear the gender of civility breaking down.
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The extent to which people let the violence predominate over or excuse ignorance of the grievances raised by protestors is where the rub is. Time will tell. It is important to remember that significant numbers of people in the US do not believe that we have a race problem at all.
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On May 31 2020 21:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 20:56 BerserkSword wrote:On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they purportedly represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived. Maybe leaders is not the right word. I'm not talking about the "leaders" involved in politics, many of which failed/sold out - agreed. I'm talking about the community figures - the boys club leaders, teachers, local preachers, coaches - anyone who tries to mentor kids in the hood but are fighting a losing battle. The ones who actually care. That's typically divided along class lines and people that are worried about when they go back to work with the white authorities in those systems taking retribution on them and their efforts. Alternatively it's just survival instinct, which is really just a separation between people that would rather die on their feet than live on their knees imo. That said there's a strain of choose your battles wisely with some substance but only from those with some familiarity with the underlying revolutionary theory, not blind appeasement to fascists. EDIT: To be clear, I think we'd all just like if america got it's shit together without riots or even protests this many decades into this issue.
What youre saying isn't incorrect, but I think the problem needs to be addressed starting at a deeper level.
Like I mentioned - NYC, which is over 50% blackand hispanic, voted Bloomberg in an unprecedented 3x.
I've been to two events in which I have heard Schumer speak off the record, and both times I've heard him TRASH minorities (he was more or less saying thank god for black and spanish workers from queens and the bronx who were willing to commute to NYCs top hospitals to work as cleaners in a condescending way)
These cats are voted in over and over. And guys like Biden, who actually came out and tried to administer the "black card" , freely get the majority of the black vote. There are some major problems, and many are due to the failure/selling out of the african american "leaders" you first referred to.
I don't see how rioting, and, in the process, ruining innocent lives and possibly antagonizing certain groups.
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On May 31 2020 21:08 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 21:04 BerserkSword wrote:On May 31 2020 20:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived. What do you think of the reports from Detroit etc. that the protests themselves are having tensions, with the black people getting pissed at white people coopting the issue to 'live out their riot fantasies'? I can picture this happening, 100% There is no way teachers, clergy, coaches, etc of black communities - the people who fight to bring the community up every single day - are approving of destroying people's lives and belligerence towards police. Nobody who works day in and day out for the community to come up cheers for this nonsense. Anyone who has lived in these communities knows that's not what they want. I can see people who actually care about the community supporting peaceful protests having tensions with agitators who show up all of a sudden after a big media event. Very disheartening. Generally I'm supportive of the riots in as far as they are frustration at this issue being ignored. You have to accept that there's organized groups here who only want to make the riots worse, but from the outside its difficult to know where I stand on it. Overall though, I think the issue of rioting is extremely minor compared to the issue of police brutality and the ongoing totalitarian response to the protests. I would rather be wrong supporting what appears to be mostly riots borne out of frustration than support the justice system which even now appears to be mostly concerned with protecting itself against change and using violence to do so..
Really it's much bigger than that. We know it is the state instigating this violence, so it boils down to the people decrying the destruction of property in response as simply trying to disarm the people and stop them from defending themselves.
Decades of work demonstrates that infiltration, subversion, distraction, shallow placation, appeals to peace, forgiveness, "what about the innocent victims" etc. are all weaponized by agents of racism/the state to perpetuate the conditions that create the riots by deflecting the blame for the consequences of the responsible parties of the state onto the victims of it.
You'll notice this trend throughout US politics, one of victim blaming, no matter how absurd. Some victim blaming narratives are still more hegemonic than people realize.
Similarly you'll find these positions are shallow and incoherent and offer no insight of an alternative. They serve not to refine an effort to address the systemic and horrific issues that spawned their critique of people taking action, they serve (knowingly or not) to impede them insidiously.
On May 31 2020 21:29 farvacola wrote:
The extent to which people let the violence predominate over or excuse ignorance of the grievances raised by protestors is where the rub is. Time will tell. It is important to remember that significant numbers of people in the US do not believe that we have a race problem at all.
'gon learn today
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The worst part is if the rioting IS the protesting... it wont stop. Cops are gonna keep shooting rioters, Rioters are gonna keep rioting to antagonize cops. Rioters are gonna say they will stop when the cops stop shooting them. Cops are gonna say they will stop shooting when the rioting and curfew violation stops. I don't care who is the bigger evil, I don't care who is being a hypocrite, I don't care who started it. Why, cause guess who pays the price? Whoever is caught in the middle.
You know who lost the Iraq war? The civilian. This is tiny compared to the atrocity that was the Iraq war but I think I have a hunch who's gonna lose this war.
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On May 31 2020 21:48 puppykiller wrote:
The worst part is if the rioting IS the protesting... it wont stop. Cops are gonna keep shooting rioters, Rioters are gonna keep rioting to antagonize cops. Rioters are gonna say they will stop when the cops stop shooting them. Cops are gonna say they will stop shooting when the rioting and curfew violation stops. I don't care who is the bigger evil, I don't care who is being a hypocrite, I don't care who started it. Why, cause guess who pays the price? Whoever is caught in the middle.
You know who lost the Iraq war? The civilian. This is tiny compared to the atrocity that was the Iraq war but I think I have a hunch who's gonna lose this war.
In this example you're complaining that Iraqi's didn't just submit to the will of an imperialist US, which is appropriately descriptive of your position imo.
Blaming the countless dead civilians and disbanded military for resisting reckless US imperialist aggression. This is some "Look at how she was dressed, she was asking for it" logic imo.
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On May 31 2020 21:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 21:48 puppykiller wrote:
The worst part is if the rioting IS the protesting... it wont stop. Cops are gonna keep shooting rioters, Rioters are gonna keep rioting to antagonize cops. Rioters are gonna say they will stop when the cops stop shooting them. Cops are gonna say they will stop shooting when the rioting and curfew violation stops. I don't care who is the bigger evil, I don't care who is being a hypocrite, I don't care who started it. Why, cause guess who pays the price? Whoever is caught in the middle.
You know who lost the Iraq war? The civilian. This is tiny compared to the atrocity that was the Iraq war but I think I have a hunch who's gonna lose this war. In this example you're complaining that Iraqi's didn't just submit to the will of an imperialist US, which is appropriately descriptive of your position imo. Blaming the countless dead civilians and disbanded military for resisting reckless US imperialist aggression
No I'm actually saying that a lot of civilians got caught between two tyrannical agendas. That's your interpretation of the Iraq war based on how you see the police and the rioters and how you think they relate to what happened in Iraq. I'm really not saying all that.
Please man. We try to speak up, you guys twist it into something you can disagree with so you can dismiss it, and our neighborhoods keep burning.
And really you should reflect on what you just did. I told you what it's like with a metaphor. You turned it into what you thought the analogy meant and then used that to characterize me as an imperialist in an effort to disregard my whole statement and reframe me as a rapist??? Am I talking to a left wing version of Ben Shapiro?
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On May 31 2020 21:29 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 21:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2020 20:56 BerserkSword wrote:On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they purportedly represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived. Maybe leaders is not the right word. I'm not talking about the "leaders" involved in politics, many of which failed/sold out - agreed. I'm talking about the community figures - the boys club leaders, teachers, local preachers, coaches - anyone who tries to mentor kids in the hood but are fighting a losing battle. The ones who actually care. That's typically divided along class lines and people that are worried about when they go back to work with the white authorities in those systems taking retribution on them and their efforts. Alternatively it's just survival instinct, which is really just a separation between people that would rather die on their feet than live on their knees imo. That said there's a strain of choose your battles wisely with some substance but only from those with some familiarity with the underlying revolutionary theory, not blind appeasement to fascists. EDIT: To be clear, I think we'd all just like if america got it's shit together without riots or even protests this many decades into this issue. What youre saying isn't incorrect, but I think the problem needs to be addressed starting at a deeper level. Like I mentioned - NYC, which is over 50% blackand hispanic, voted Bloomberg in an unprecedented 3x. I've been to two events in which I have heard Schumer speak off the record, and both times I've heard him TRASH minorities (he was more or less saying thank god for black and spanish workers from queens and the bronx who were willing to commute to NYCs top hospitals to work as cleaners in a condescending way) These cats are voted in over and over. And guys like Biden, who actually came out and tried to administer the "black card" , freely get the majority of the black vote. There are some major problems, and many are due to the failure/selling out of the african american "leaders" you first referred to. I don't see how rioting, and, in the process, ruining innocent lives and possibly antagonizing certain groups.
Maybe unwittingly, but you're neatly summarising GH's point about how the ballot box doesn't work. Despite appearances, minorities don't have anyone to vote for. The Republicans actively hate them and the Democrats treat them with paternalistic condescension.
People saying 'rioting isn't the answer' are just hiding from the fact that every other option has been tried, and tried for decades.
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On May 31 2020 21:57 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 21:29 BerserkSword wrote:On May 31 2020 21:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2020 20:56 BerserkSword wrote:On May 31 2020 20:45 GreenHorizons wrote:the vast majority of African American community leaders do not condone any of this nonsense either. Worth noting that it wouldn't really make sense for leaders to endorse a demonstration to their failure to secure basic human dignity for the people they purportedly represent after decades of those people putting their trust in said leaders to secure that dignity. It would be those leaders abandoning the system from which their authority in such matters is derived. Maybe leaders is not the right word. I'm not talking about the "leaders" involved in politics, many of which failed/sold out - agreed. I'm talking about the community figures - the boys club leaders, teachers, local preachers, coaches - anyone who tries to mentor kids in the hood but are fighting a losing battle. The ones who actually care. That's typically divided along class lines and people that are worried about when they go back to work with the white authorities in those systems taking retribution on them and their efforts. Alternatively it's just survival instinct, which is really just a separation between people that would rather die on their feet than live on their knees imo. That said there's a strain of choose your battles wisely with some substance but only from those with some familiarity with the underlying revolutionary theory, not blind appeasement to fascists. EDIT: To be clear, I think we'd all just like if america got it's shit together without riots or even protests this many decades into this issue. What youre saying isn't incorrect, but I think the problem needs to be addressed starting at a deeper level. Like I mentioned - NYC, which is over 50% blackand hispanic, voted Bloomberg in an unprecedented 3x. I've been to two events in which I have heard Schumer speak off the record, and both times I've heard him TRASH minorities (he was more or less saying thank god for black and spanish workers from queens and the bronx who were willing to commute to NYCs top hospitals to work as cleaners in a condescending way) These cats are voted in over and over. And guys like Biden, who actually came out and tried to administer the "black card" , freely get the majority of the black vote. There are some major problems, and many are due to the failure/selling out of the african american "leaders" you first referred to. I don't see how rioting, and, in the process, ruining innocent lives and possibly antagonizing certain groups. Maybe unwittingly, but you're neatly summarising GH's point about how the ballot box doesn't work. Despite appearances, minorities don't have anyone to vote for. The Republicans actively hate them and the Democrats treat them with paternalistic condescension. People saying 'rioting isn't the answer' are just hiding from the fact that every other option has been tried, and tried for decades.
Moreover it ignores that uprisings aren't intended to be the solution they are meant to be the impetus to finally enact the solutions the government has been violently resisting for decades.
It's remarkable to me how people's contextual awareness is so insular when they want it to be.
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Guys I don't know what to say. You think destroying our communities is the way to get change, and your dead set on it. Your not gonna convince me I mean... I live there. No one I know who actually lives in the targeted areas is into it... no one. And that is a broad array of race and class.
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EPT
