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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1942

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Ryzel
Profile Joined December 2012
United States529 Posts
December 11 2019 13:54 GMT
#38821
On December 11 2019 17:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2019 16:41 Introvert wrote:
On December 11 2019 16:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 11 2019 15:53 Introvert wrote:
On December 11 2019 15:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
On December 11 2019 15:39 Introvert wrote:
Matt Taibbi has a very quick rundown how the Horowitz IG report shatters the three long years we spent on Russiagate. While the report does say they didn't find any political motivation (laughable) the "serious" problems with the way the FBI handled the whole affair ought to make those who spent years pushing it as embarrassed as they should have been the day the Mueller report came out. Also, the Nunes memo was 10x closer to the truth than was Schiff's. If only xDaunt were here.

The Guardian headline reads: “DOJ Internal watchdog report clears FBI of illegal surveillance of Trump adviser.”

If the report released Monday by Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz constitutes a “clearing” of the FBI, never clear me of anything. Holy God, what a clown show the Trump-Russia investigation was.

Like the much-ballyhooed report by Special Counsel Robert Mueller, the Horowitz report is a Rorschach test, in which partisans will find what they want to find.

Much of the press is concentrating on Horowitz’s conclusion that there was no evidence of “political bias or improper motivation” in the FBI’s probe of Donald Trump’s Russia contacts, an investigation Horowitz says the bureau had “authorized purpose” to conduct.

Horowitz uses phrases like “serious performance failures,” describing his 416-page catalogue of errors and manipulations as incompetence rather than corruption. This throws water on the notion that the Trump investigation was a vast frame-up.

However, Horowitz describes at great length an FBI whose “serious” procedural problems and omissions of “significant information” in pursuit of surveillance authority all fell in the direction of expanding the unprecedented investigation of a presidential candidate (later, a president).

Officials on the “Crossfire Hurricane” Trump-Russia investigators went to extraordinary, almost comical lengths to seek surveillance authority of figures like Trump aide Carter Page. In one episode, an FBI attorney inserted the words “not a source” in an email he’d received from another government agency. This disguised the fact that Page had been an informant for that agency, and had dutifully told the government in real time about being approached by Russian intelligence. The attorney then passed on the email to an FBI supervisory special agent, who signed a FISA warrant application on Page that held those Russian contacts against Page, without disclosing his informant role.

Likewise, the use of reports by ex-spy/campaign researcher Christopher Steele in pursuit of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) authority had far-reaching ramifications.

Not only did obtaining a FISA warrant allow authorities a window into other Trump figures with whom Page communicated, they led to a slew of leaked “bombshell” news stories that advanced many public misconceptions, including that a court had ruled there was “probable cause” that a Trump figure was an “agent of a foreign power.”

There are too many to list in one column, but the Horowitz report show years of breathless headlines were wrong. Some key points:

The so-called “Steele dossier” was, actually, crucial to the FBI’s decision to seek secret surveillance of Page.


Press figures have derided the idea that Steele was crucial to the FISA application, with some insisting it was only a “small part” of the application. Horowitz is clear:

We determined that the Crossfire Hurricane team’s receipt of Steele’s election reporting on September 19, 2016 played a central and essential role in the FBI’s and Department’s decision to seek the FISA order.

The report describes how, prior to receiving Steele’s reports, the FBI General Counsel (OGC) and/or the National Security Division’s Office of Intelligence (OI) wouldn’t budge on seeking FISA authority. But after getting the reports, the OGC unit chief said, “receipt of the Steele reporting changed her mind on whether they could establish probable cause.”

Meanwhile, the OI unit chief said Steele’s reports were “what kind of pushed it over the line.” There’s no FISA warrant without Steele.

Horowitz ratifies the oft-denounced “Nunes memo.”

Democrats are not going to want to hear this, since conventional wisdom says former House Intelligence chief Devin Nunes is a conspiratorial evildoer, but the Horowitz report ratifies the major claims of the infamous “Nunes memo.”

As noted, Horowitz establishes that the Steele report was crucial to the FISA process, even using the same language Nunes used (“essential”). He also confirms the Nunes assertion that the FBI double-dipped in citing both Steele and a September 23, 2016 Yahoo! news story using Steele as an unnamed source. Horowitz listed the idea that Steele did not directly provide information to the press as one of seven significant “inaccuracies or omissions” in the first FISA application.

Horowitz also verifies the claim that Steele was “closed for cause” for talking to the media, i.e. officially cut off as a confidential human source to the FBI. He shows that Steele continued to talk to Justice Official Bruce Ohr before and after Steele’s formal relationship with the FBI ended. His report confirms that the Steele information had not been corroborated when the FISA application was submitted, another key Nunes point.

There was gnashing of teeth when Nunes first released his memo in January, 2018. The press universally crapped on his letter, with a Washington Post piece calling it a “joke” and a “sham.” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi slammed Nunes for the release of a “bogus” document, while New York Senator Chuck Schumer said the memo was intended to “sow conspiracy theories and attack the integrity of federal law enforcement.” Many called for his removal as Committee chair.

The Horowitz report says all of that caterwauling was off-base. It also undercuts many of the assertions made in a ballyhooed response letter by Nunes counterpart Adam Schiff, who described the FBI’s “reasonable basis” for deeming Steele credible. The report is especially hostile to Schiff’s claim that the FBI “provided additional information obtained through multiple independent sources that corroborated Steele’s reporting.”

In fact, far from confirming the Steele material, the FBI over time seems mainly to have uncovered more and more reasons to run screaming from Steele, to wit:

The “Steele dossier” was “Internet rumor,” and corroboration for the pee tape story was “zero.”

The Steele report reads like a pile of rumors surrounded by public information pulled off the Internet, and the Horowitz report does nothing to dispel this notion.

At the time the FBI submitted its first FISA application, Horowitz writes, it had “corroborated limited information in Steele’s election reporting, and most of that was publicly available information.” Horowitz says of Steele’s reports: “The CIA viewed it as ‘internet rumor.’”

Worse (and this part of the story should be tattooed on the heads of Russia truthers), the FBI’s interviews of Steele’s sources revealed Steele embellished the most explosive parts of his report.

The “pee tape” story, which inspired countless grave headlines (see this chin-scratching New York Times history of Russian “sexual blackmail”) and plunged the Trump presidency into crisis before it began, was, this source said, based a “conversation that [he/she] had over beers,” with the sexual allegations made… in “jest”!

Steele in his report said the story had been “confirmed” by senior, Western hotel staff, but the actual source said it was all “rumor and speculation,” never confirmed. In fact, charged by Steele to find corroboration, the source could not: corroboration was “zero,” writes Horowitz.

Meanwhile the Steele assertions that Russians had a kompromat file on Hillary Clinton, and that there was a “well-developed conspiracy of coordination” between the Trump campaign and Russians, relied on a source Steele himself disparaged as an “egoist” and “boaster” who “may engage in some embellishment.” This was known to the FBI at the start, yet they naturally failed to include this info in the warrant application, one of what Horowitz described as “17 significant errors or omissions” in the FISA application.

Finally, when the FBI conducted an investigation into Steele’s “work-related performance,” they heard from some that he was “smart,” and a “person of integrity,” and “if he reported it, he believed it.”

So far, so good. But Horowitz also wrote:

Their notes stated: “[d]emonstrates lack of self-awareness, poor judgment;” “[k]een to help” but “underpinned by poor judgment;” “Judgment: pursuing people with political risk but no intel value;” “[d]idn’t always exercise great judgment- sometimes [he] believes he knows best;” and “[r]eporting in good faith, but not clear what he would have done to validate.”

The Crossfire Hurricane team got all of this, but, again, didn’t pass it upstairs or include any of it in its warrant application.

I’ve written about how reporters used sleight of hand to get the Steele dossier into print without putting it through a vetting process. What Horowitz describes is worse: a story about bad journalism piled on bad journalism, balanced on a third layer of wrong reporting.

Steele in his “reports” embellished his sources’ quotes, played up nonexistent angles, invented attributions, and ignored inconsistencies. The FBI then transplanted this bad reporting in the form of a warrant application and an addendum to the Intelligence Assessment that included the Steele material, ignoring a new layer of inconsistencies and red flags its analysts uncovered in the review process.

Then, following a series of leaks, the news media essentially reported on the FBI’s wrong reporting of Steele’s wrong reporting.

The impact was greater than just securing a warrant to monitor Page. More significant were the years of headlines that grew out of this process, beginning with the leaking of the meeting with Trump about Steele’s blackmail allegations, the insertion of Steele’s conclusions in the Intelligence Assessment about Russian interference, and the leak of news about the approval of the Page FISA warrant.

As a result, a “well-developed conspiracy” theory based on a report that Comey described as “salacious and unverified material that a responsible journalist wouldn’t report without corroborating,” became the driving news story in a superpower nation for two years. Even the New York Times, which published a lot of these stories, is in the wake of the Horowitz report noting Steele’s role in “unleashing a flood of speculation in the news media about the new president’s relationship with Russia.”

No matter what people think the political meaning of the Horowitz report might be, reporters who read it will know: Anybody who touched this nonsense in print should be embarrassed.


I posted the whole thing, it's not that long and doesn't have a good halfway point.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/horowitz-report-steele-dossier-collusion-news-media-924944/


Any chance that those that thought the FBI weren't trash before they were investigating Trump ever had this moment of embarrassment?


Well I still don't think most of those people (myself included) are ready to label the entire agency as garbage, although I know you think it is. Certainly a black mark, and cause for concern and review (to use mild language) but I do think the exceptional hate on many of those in a high level of government have for Trump was a very large contributor. But of course, screwing up something like this raises serious questions about how they behave elsewhere. So I think you won't find many people who are going to end up where you are.


Ah yes, the old "anomaly" rather than part of a well established pattern of behavior in order to avoid confronting the contradictions of what is clearly a wildly cynical preservation of the very practices, institutions and people being decried now that they have been aimed at a perceived ally.

If any embarrassment was coming it would have prevented them from trusting the FBI in the first place.


Well I'll put it slightly differently. I think this episode has shown that the type of people who rise to the top of the organization are clearly not the morally upstanding citizens we wished they were, although that may have been obvious from the very first director. It doesn't have to be an anomaly of kind, but perhaps of scale. Still, most FBI work is not whatever the hell these people thought they were doing. I, and most others, are simply not going to go whole-hog on this with you.


I'm more speaking to how Democrats will explain it away as you are the history of the FBI assassinating civil rights leaders, spying on federal officials, and various other criminal domestic spying endeavors from inception right up until they started in on Trump, and as they conveniently forgot all that to put their faith in the FBI.

Neither group being embarrassed was really on the table throughout all this nonsense.


i.e. “We’re very disappointed that you’ve been targeting us (Republicans) with shady shit, but since you have a long history of targeting our enemies instead, we’ll let it slide. Don’t let it happen again though!”

vs

“I know you’ve been targeting some of us (Democrats) for a long time with shady shit, and that’s bad, but we’re glad you’re finally turning over a new leaf and targeting our enemies! We’ll support you as long as you continue!”
Hakuna Matata B*tches
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
December 11 2019 14:08 GMT
#38822
On December 11 2019 22:25 Simberto wrote:
Can someone explain a bit better how that is supposed to work? I am getting a bit confused here.

People are protesting against stuff Israel does, and Israel is already a nation. And usually it is okay to protest against stuff nations do?

Judaism is a religion, and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities.

If you declare that Judaism is a nation, doesn't that mean that it is okay to protest it, because you can already protest against nations? How does this actually prevent people from protesting against Israel?

Or is it the other way around, that you declare that the nation of Israel is actually a religion and not a nation (or both?), and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities?

Is this some weird kind of legalistic workaround where you manage to make it schroedingers nation, where Israel is always protected by being the religion of judaism when people want to protest against it, but judaism is still a religion and not the nation of israel, and israel is a nation whenever people are not protesting against it?

Also, of course it will also be interesting to see how the people championing free speech whenever it allows you to discriminate against gay people will react to this. They should be appalled by the idea of limiting free speech here, right?

Why is the Labour anti-Semitism story in Britain quite the story it is?

Seen in combination with this proposed move, the intent is pretty damn transparent.

Also how does Schrodinger’s Israel work if you’re a Jew who is opposed to Israeli behaviour? Are you discriminating against yourself or what?
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35159 Posts
December 11 2019 14:33 GMT
#38823
On December 11 2019 23:08 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2019 22:25 Simberto wrote:
Can someone explain a bit better how that is supposed to work? I am getting a bit confused here.

People are protesting against stuff Israel does, and Israel is already a nation. And usually it is okay to protest against stuff nations do?

Judaism is a religion, and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities.

If you declare that Judaism is a nation, doesn't that mean that it is okay to protest it, because you can already protest against nations? How does this actually prevent people from protesting against Israel?

Or is it the other way around, that you declare that the nation of Israel is actually a religion and not a nation (or both?), and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities?

Is this some weird kind of legalistic workaround where you manage to make it schroedingers nation, where Israel is always protected by being the religion of judaism when people want to protest against it, but judaism is still a religion and not the nation of israel, and israel is a nation whenever people are not protesting against it?

Also, of course it will also be interesting to see how the people championing free speech whenever it allows you to discriminate against gay people will react to this. They should be appalled by the idea of limiting free speech here, right?

Why is the Labour anti-Semitism story in Britain quite the story it is?

Seen in combination with this proposed move, the intent is pretty damn transparent.

Also how does Schrodinger’s Israel work if you’re a Jew who is opposed to Israeli behaviour? Are you discriminating against yourself or what?

"Internalized antisemitism" would be the term.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
December 11 2019 14:35 GMT
#38824
On December 11 2019 23:33 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2019 23:08 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 11 2019 22:25 Simberto wrote:
Can someone explain a bit better how that is supposed to work? I am getting a bit confused here.

People are protesting against stuff Israel does, and Israel is already a nation. And usually it is okay to protest against stuff nations do?

Judaism is a religion, and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities.

If you declare that Judaism is a nation, doesn't that mean that it is okay to protest it, because you can already protest against nations? How does this actually prevent people from protesting against Israel?

Or is it the other way around, that you declare that the nation of Israel is actually a religion and not a nation (or both?), and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities?

Is this some weird kind of legalistic workaround where you manage to make it schroedingers nation, where Israel is always protected by being the religion of judaism when people want to protest against it, but judaism is still a religion and not the nation of israel, and israel is a nation whenever people are not protesting against it?

Also, of course it will also be interesting to see how the people championing free speech whenever it allows you to discriminate against gay people will react to this. They should be appalled by the idea of limiting free speech here, right?

Why is the Labour anti-Semitism story in Britain quite the story it is?

Seen in combination with this proposed move, the intent is pretty damn transparent.

Also how does Schrodinger’s Israel work if you’re a Jew who is opposed to Israeli behaviour? Are you discriminating against yourself or what?

"Internalized antisemitism" would be the term.

Aye but legally? Granted this isn’t a particularly serious question.



'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12269 Posts
December 11 2019 14:46 GMT
#38825
On December 11 2019 23:33 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2019 23:08 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 11 2019 22:25 Simberto wrote:
Can someone explain a bit better how that is supposed to work? I am getting a bit confused here.

People are protesting against stuff Israel does, and Israel is already a nation. And usually it is okay to protest against stuff nations do?

Judaism is a religion, and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities.

If you declare that Judaism is a nation, doesn't that mean that it is okay to protest it, because you can already protest against nations? How does this actually prevent people from protesting against Israel?

Or is it the other way around, that you declare that the nation of Israel is actually a religion and not a nation (or both?), and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities?

Is this some weird kind of legalistic workaround where you manage to make it schroedingers nation, where Israel is always protected by being the religion of judaism when people want to protest against it, but judaism is still a religion and not the nation of israel, and israel is a nation whenever people are not protesting against it?

Also, of course it will also be interesting to see how the people championing free speech whenever it allows you to discriminate against gay people will react to this. They should be appalled by the idea of limiting free speech here, right?

Why is the Labour anti-Semitism story in Britain quite the story it is?

Seen in combination with this proposed move, the intent is pretty damn transparent.

Also how does Schrodinger’s Israel work if you’re a Jew who is opposed to Israeli behaviour? Are you discriminating against yourself or what?

"Internalized antisemitism" would be the term.


Happened to Chomsky a lot, I hear.
No will to live, no wish to die
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
December 11 2019 15:08 GMT
#38826
On December 11 2019 23:33 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2019 23:08 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 11 2019 22:25 Simberto wrote:
Can someone explain a bit better how that is supposed to work? I am getting a bit confused here.

People are protesting against stuff Israel does, and Israel is already a nation. And usually it is okay to protest against stuff nations do?

Judaism is a religion, and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities.

If you declare that Judaism is a nation, doesn't that mean that it is okay to protest it, because you can already protest against nations? How does this actually prevent people from protesting against Israel?

Or is it the other way around, that you declare that the nation of Israel is actually a religion and not a nation (or both?), and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities?

Is this some weird kind of legalistic workaround where you manage to make it schroedingers nation, where Israel is always protected by being the religion of judaism when people want to protest against it, but judaism is still a religion and not the nation of israel, and israel is a nation whenever people are not protesting against it?

Also, of course it will also be interesting to see how the people championing free speech whenever it allows you to discriminate against gay people will react to this. They should be appalled by the idea of limiting free speech here, right?

Why is the Labour anti-Semitism story in Britain quite the story it is?

Seen in combination with this proposed move, the intent is pretty damn transparent.

Also how does Schrodinger’s Israel work if you’re a Jew who is opposed to Israeli behaviour? Are you discriminating against yourself or what?

"Internalized antisemitism" would be the term.
I can't beleive this is a real term. this is some creepy lexicon. There is something simply wrong about this notion of Isreal the nation as a religious or ethnic identity and so those are ethnically Jewish or religiously Jewish can be described as antisemetic, if they oppose a policy of the nation of Isreal.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11564 Posts
December 11 2019 15:25 GMT
#38827
It is also incorrect.

It is possible to hold a negative view of yourself, or some aspect of your heritage. That is not really the problem here. In the same way that a black person can be racist against black people can a jewish person be an antisemite. I am almost certain that there are jewish persons out there who think that jews are greedy and all the other classic antisemite stereotypes.

That is not the problem here. The problem is the classical conflating of Israel and jews. I can be against something that Israel does, and not be prejudiced against jews in the same way that i can be against stuff that Saudi Arabia does, and not be prejudiced against muslims. I refuse to accept that a state, just by claiming to be a "x religious state" or being majority religion "x", automatically becomes synonymous with that religion. It is just an easy propaganda tool to deflect criticism of what you are doing by turning being against your actions into a flaw of the person who is against it.

It leaves no legitimate reason to ever criticize the nation, because any criticism can always be deflected as "antisemitic". I am against a bunch of stuff that Israel does, but i am not against jewish people or the jewish faith. This is possible because Israel and the jewish religion are not the same thing. One is a state, the other is a faith and/or possibly an ethnic group.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-11 15:30:04
December 11 2019 15:29 GMT
#38828
That's what I wrote in not so many words. Why did you say I am incorrect?
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9003 Posts
December 11 2019 15:33 GMT
#38829
I think he's debating the the term, not the description?
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11564 Posts
December 11 2019 15:39 GMT
#38830
Indeed. My point was that usage of that term here is incorrect, not that DMCD, who said the same thing, was saying an incorrect thing.

I then explained that i think that there are use cases for that term, but that just being a jew who is against stuff Israel does is not one of them.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12269 Posts
December 11 2019 16:14 GMT
#38831
On December 12 2019 00:25 Simberto wrote:
It is also incorrect.

It is possible to hold a negative view of yourself, or some aspect of your heritage. That is not really the problem here. In the same way that a black person can be racist against black people can a jewish person be an antisemite. I am almost certain that there are jewish persons out there who think that jews are greedy and all the other classic antisemite stereotypes.

That is not the problem here. The problem is the classical conflating of Israel and jews. I can be against something that Israel does, and not be prejudiced against jews in the same way that i can be against stuff that Saudi Arabia does, and not be prejudiced against muslims. I refuse to accept that a state, just by claiming to be a "x religious state" or being majority religion "x", automatically becomes synonymous with that religion. It is just an easy propaganda tool to deflect criticism of what you are doing by turning being against your actions into a flaw of the person who is against it.

It leaves no legitimate reason to ever criticize the nation, because any criticism can always be deflected as "antisemitic". I am against a bunch of stuff that Israel does, but i am not against jewish people or the jewish faith. This is possible because Israel and the jewish religion are not the same thing. One is a state, the other is a faith and/or possibly an ethnic group.


I mean, you're right, but you're also saying pretty obvious things. I don't think very many people need it explained to them that criticism of Israel doesn't have to be antisemitic. Conflating the two is a propaganda tool and it's used as such mostly by politicians and other dishonest people.

It's kind of like "Why are whites the only people who can't be proud of their heritage". Whiteness isn't your heritage, irish is your heritage, or german, or polish, or american, and obviously you can be proud of that if you want. Whiteness is something else. But you will rarely meet someone who truly doesn't understand that.
No will to live, no wish to die
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9003 Posts
December 11 2019 16:24 GMT
#38832
That's a large majority in the US who don't understand that.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
December 11 2019 16:24 GMT
#38833
On December 12 2019 01:14 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2019 00:25 Simberto wrote:
It is also incorrect.

It is possible to hold a negative view of yourself, or some aspect of your heritage. That is not really the problem here. In the same way that a black person can be racist against black people can a jewish person be an antisemite. I am almost certain that there are jewish persons out there who think that jews are greedy and all the other classic antisemite stereotypes.

That is not the problem here. The problem is the classical conflating of Israel and jews. I can be against something that Israel does, and not be prejudiced against jews in the same way that i can be against stuff that Saudi Arabia does, and not be prejudiced against muslims. I refuse to accept that a state, just by claiming to be a "x religious state" or being majority religion "x", automatically becomes synonymous with that religion. It is just an easy propaganda tool to deflect criticism of what you are doing by turning being against your actions into a flaw of the person who is against it.

It leaves no legitimate reason to ever criticize the nation, because any criticism can always be deflected as "antisemitic". I am against a bunch of stuff that Israel does, but i am not against jewish people or the jewish faith. This is possible because Israel and the jewish religion are not the same thing. One is a state, the other is a faith and/or possibly an ethnic group.


I mean, you're right, but you're also saying pretty obvious things. I don't think very many people need it explained to them that criticism of Israel doesn't have to be antisemitic. Conflating the two is a propaganda tool and it's used as such mostly by politicians and other dishonest people.

It's kind of like "Why are whites the only people who can't be proud of their heritage". Whiteness isn't your heritage, irish is your heritage, or german, or polish, or american, and obviously you can be proud of that if you want. Whiteness is something else. But you will rarely meet someone who truly doesn't understand that.

It’s an increasingly common view seemingly, perhaps some people do need it explained to them.

On your second point yeah 100%. One of the classic rhetorical tactics of white supremacists.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11564 Posts
December 11 2019 16:26 GMT
#38834
It is also obvious to me, but it does not seem to be that obvious, or we wouldn't have this constant thing going on where anyone who disagrees with Israel is described as an antisemite.

If it is treated like a sensible argument despite being obviously incorrect, it cannot be wrong to give a complete argument as to why i think it is wrong.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43005 Posts
December 11 2019 16:28 GMT
#38835
On December 12 2019 01:24 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
That's a large majority in the US who don't understand that.

Who willfully choose to not understand that because their self worth is tied to their sense of not being black.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11564 Posts
December 11 2019 16:39 GMT
#38836
On December 12 2019 01:28 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 12 2019 01:24 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
That's a large majority in the US who don't understand that.

Who willfully choose to not understand that because their self worth is tied to their sense of not being black.


It is kind of sad if the biggest positive thing you can say about yourself is "I managed to get born by parents with low melanin content in their skin"
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12269 Posts
December 11 2019 16:59 GMT
#38837
On December 12 2019 01:26 Simberto wrote:
It is also obvious to me, but it does not seem to be that obvious, or we wouldn't have this constant thing going on where anyone who disagrees with Israel is described as an antisemite.

If it is treated like a sensible argument despite being obviously incorrect, it cannot be wrong to give a complete argument as to why i think it is wrong.


I'm not saying it's wrong, like I said, you're right. I just don't think many people need to hear it. The people who say that kind of stuff mostly know that they're lying to cover for their loyalty to an apartheid state or to cover for their hatred of muslims, and the people who don't say it mostly can tell that it doesn't work.

The normie view of Israel-Palestine mostly survives because "It's complicated and I don't really know how it works; also it's far away and it doesn't impact me", and because terrorism looks worse on paper to normies than state violence does. It's never really been because "Oh I don't want to be an antisemite by criticizing Israel". I mean I guess that's true for Switzerland, maybe there is different normie discourse in other places.
No will to live, no wish to die
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35159 Posts
December 11 2019 18:18 GMT
#38838
On December 11 2019 23:35 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2019 23:33 Gahlo wrote:
On December 11 2019 23:08 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 11 2019 22:25 Simberto wrote:
Can someone explain a bit better how that is supposed to work? I am getting a bit confused here.

People are protesting against stuff Israel does, and Israel is already a nation. And usually it is okay to protest against stuff nations do?

Judaism is a religion, and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities.

If you declare that Judaism is a nation, doesn't that mean that it is okay to protest it, because you can already protest against nations? How does this actually prevent people from protesting against Israel?

Or is it the other way around, that you declare that the nation of Israel is actually a religion and not a nation (or both?), and thus protected by stuff protecting religious minorities?

Is this some weird kind of legalistic workaround where you manage to make it schroedingers nation, where Israel is always protected by being the religion of judaism when people want to protest against it, but judaism is still a religion and not the nation of israel, and israel is a nation whenever people are not protesting against it?

Also, of course it will also be interesting to see how the people championing free speech whenever it allows you to discriminate against gay people will react to this. They should be appalled by the idea of limiting free speech here, right?

Why is the Labour anti-Semitism story in Britain quite the story it is?

Seen in combination with this proposed move, the intent is pretty damn transparent.

Also how does Schrodinger’s Israel work if you’re a Jew who is opposed to Israeli behaviour? Are you discriminating against yourself or what?

"Internalized antisemitism" would be the term.

Aye but legally? Granted this isn’t a particularly serious question.




I mean, I think it's nonsense, but that's what they'd be labeled as.
redlightdistrict
Profile Joined October 2018
382 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-11 19:47:39
December 11 2019 19:44 GMT
#38839
On December 11 2019 20:30 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2019 20:27 Excludos wrote:
On December 11 2019 06:19 redlightdistrict wrote:
The Georgia reporter who is a rape survivor after being violently and sexually violated on Live TV, just gave he first interview. The original video has been viewed over 10+ times and is becoming a prominent piece of the #metoo movement happening in America

The violating abuser has been banned from further marathons in the US and rightfully so.


Not saying this is ok, it absolutely is not, the ban is deserved, but this seems very blown out of proportions. When you say "violently" and "sexually violated", I expected a lot more than a slap on the butt. As far as situations that should spur a MeToo response, this is pretty far down the list. Being a rape survivor doesn't really matter in this case either.

Also..10 views? Is that a typo? Not exactly a whole lot.

redlightdistrict does not know what rape is. Also, it should have been over ten million times. In addition, the ban was not from all marathons as far as I can tell, but specifically the events organized by the group that was running the one pictured.

https://statelaws.findlaw.com/california-law/california-rape-laws.html
Rape laws criminalize sexual intercourse that happens without the consent of at least one of the participants. Rape falls under the broader category of sexual assault (which includes offenses such as groping and other unwanted sexual contact).

How dare you accuse me i dont know what rape is when it is clearly defined in the letter of law. You just witnessed video of a girl being an unwilling participant in being unwantedly groped by a individual that was unknown to her. What this man did to that reporter is just as egregious as what epstien did on that island witch those young women, Rape is Rape.
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9222 Posts
December 11 2019 19:51 GMT
#38840
It's not funny redlight, it's cringey.
You're now breathing manually
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