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Plenty of Iraq war lovers are coming out in favor of Trump withdrawing from the agreement with Iran...imagine that.
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On May 12 2018 06:23 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2018 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:14 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 02:36 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 02:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 12 2018 01:55 Plansix wrote:
The striking part of this article is that 41% of the goverment workforce is able to retire in the next 5 years. They need a lot more workers to fill that gap. And the fact that they are suggesting working for the goverment for 30 years shouldn't mean you can get "life long retirement". Do they really want people to stay in those jobs until they are 75?
This whole thing just seems like another attempt to reign in goverment spending by doing anything but cutting the military budget. By the way, military retirement will likely be unchanged. They are just a bigger, better lobby. I would think that employee benefits are a rounding error to the Federal budget. You are likely right, but it is red meat for budget hawks. Those budget hawks never go after military spending, which spends close to 300 billion on personnel and "operations and maintenance." And like fixing your car, the majority of the costs for maintenance on military equipment is labor. And lets not forget the $125 billion is waste that the Washington Post found in 2016. That story died on the vine. Really, what needs to happen is we need a PR budget for goverment employees. We will call it "recruitment for civil service". They will get deep into advertising on the NBA. We will have all the players come out every game and, depending on the venue, talk about the importance the census, EPA, FDA, government research grants and the national park service. We also need civil service bases to make sure there are entrenched communities of voters that are supported by these goverment employees. Government employees could learn a lot from how the military operates. Pretty sure the pentagon has 'adjusted' away enough money to pay for free college and universal healthcare for a few decades . We could do all sorts of things we claim not to have funding for, it's always been a matter of priorities not resources. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2017/12/08/has-our-government-spent-21-trillion-of-our-money-without-telling-us It is also the largest government employer in the country, with bases in several states that make up a reasonable portion of that state’s economy. And it funds several industries making the basic equipment for the armed services. We love the war machine because it employs so many voters. It's the largest employer in the entire world. The next closest is China’s People’s Liberation Army (with almost 1,000,000 less employees), followed closely by Walmart (~2.1m) as of 2015 anyway. www.marketwatch.comThe US military-industrial complex is the largest employment agency in the world and it reflects in our political actions. Just look at what happened to 'defense' contractors when NK peace talks took a good turn. This is why fighting the war machine is impossible. That is too many people are in that system. We need to learn from the war machine’s tactics and advocate on equal measure for other government agencies. Advocate for the SEC the same way the military advocates as the defenders of American values. The FDA needs to have such a massive budget that it advertises on the super bowl. Give Americans some context for how messed up it is that the NFL has a deal with the US army. Something tells me it would be a little tougher to generate the type of excitement military displays do with the SEC. Maybe if we were publicly executing bankers/brokers? We would run out of bankers real quick and then we have the French Revolution’s problem, executions are crowd pleasers. We can just go full post 2000 Brave New World where our government agencies all push for voter support. They help fund sporting events, bring back Firefly and arrest web designers who make sites with auto playing videos. I think you underestimate the culture of wealth addiction we've cultivated in this country. We could execute several a day and it would still be a growing industry. Though I think gladiator style games would be more attractive. "Want to have a fast paced career saving humanity by killing people? Forget the military, become a SEC Gladiator!" But seriously, neither party has any intentions of actually addressing this mess. They are so hopelessly addicted wealth and power they make Rob Ford look like Scruff McGruff
China has more billionaires than we do.
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On May 12 2018 10:34 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2018 06:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:14 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 02:36 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 02:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
I would think that employee benefits are a rounding error to the Federal budget. You are likely right, but it is red meat for budget hawks. Those budget hawks never go after military spending, which spends close to 300 billion on personnel and "operations and maintenance." And like fixing your car, the majority of the costs for maintenance on military equipment is labor. And lets not forget the $125 billion is waste that the Washington Post found in 2016. That story died on the vine. Really, what needs to happen is we need a PR budget for goverment employees. We will call it "recruitment for civil service". They will get deep into advertising on the NBA. We will have all the players come out every game and, depending on the venue, talk about the importance the census, EPA, FDA, government research grants and the national park service. We also need civil service bases to make sure there are entrenched communities of voters that are supported by these goverment employees. Government employees could learn a lot from how the military operates. Pretty sure the pentagon has 'adjusted' away enough money to pay for free college and universal healthcare for a few decades . We could do all sorts of things we claim not to have funding for, it's always been a matter of priorities not resources. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2017/12/08/has-our-government-spent-21-trillion-of-our-money-without-telling-us It is also the largest government employer in the country, with bases in several states that make up a reasonable portion of that state’s economy. And it funds several industries making the basic equipment for the armed services. We love the war machine because it employs so many voters. It's the largest employer in the entire world. The next closest is China’s People’s Liberation Army (with almost 1,000,000 less employees), followed closely by Walmart (~2.1m) as of 2015 anyway. www.marketwatch.comThe US military-industrial complex is the largest employment agency in the world and it reflects in our political actions. Just look at what happened to 'defense' contractors when NK peace talks took a good turn. This is why fighting the war machine is impossible. That is too many people are in that system. We need to learn from the war machine’s tactics and advocate on equal measure for other government agencies. Advocate for the SEC the same way the military advocates as the defenders of American values. The FDA needs to have such a massive budget that it advertises on the super bowl. Give Americans some context for how messed up it is that the NFL has a deal with the US army. Something tells me it would be a little tougher to generate the type of excitement military displays do with the SEC. Maybe if we were publicly executing bankers/brokers? We would run out of bankers real quick and then we have the French Revolution’s problem, executions are crowd pleasers. We can just go full post 2000 Brave New World where our government agencies all push for voter support. They help fund sporting events, bring back Firefly and arrest web designers who make sites with auto playing videos. I think you underestimate the culture of wealth addiction we've cultivated in this country. We could execute several a day and it would still be a growing industry. Though I think gladiator style games would be more attractive. "Want to have a fast paced career saving humanity by killing people? Forget the military, become a SEC Gladiator!" But seriously, neither party has any intentions of actually addressing this mess. They are so hopelessly addicted wealth and power they make Rob Ford look like Scruff McGruff China has more billionaires than we do.
That's true, but that's partially due to the more equitable distribution of wealth, even among billionaires.
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At this point I'm not sure how I feel about China. I'm obviously not a Chinese citizen and can't speak from experience, but their system seems to be superior just from what I've heard. They seem to be honest about what they censor, and their government officials seem to genuinely have China's best interests in mind as opposed to rich individuals (I admit I could be completely wrong about this, I just don't know that much about the country's internal workings).
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On May 12 2018 11:53 mierin wrote:
At this point I'm not sure how I feel about China. I'm obviously not a Chinese citizen and can't speak from experience, but their system seems to be superior just from what I've heard. They seem to be honest about what they censor, and their government officials seem to genuinely have China's best interests in mind as opposed to rich individuals (I admit I could be completely wrong about this, I just don't know that much about the country's internal workings).
You are, in fact, completely wrong.
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2018 11:53 mierin wrote:
At this point I'm not sure how I feel about China. I'm obviously not a Chinese citizen and can't speak from experience, but their system seems to be superior just from what I've heard. They seem to be honest about what they censor, and their government officials seem to genuinely have China's best interests in mind as opposed to rich individuals (I admit I could be completely wrong about this, I just don't know that much about the country's internal workings).
Well it's a little of both. China's rapid growth has seen avg incomes rise significantly (aiming for 100% increase compared to 2010), but it's come at the cost of more capitalistic influence. So while they are enjoying increased wages across the board most gains have been realized at the top as well, though again, more equitably distributed than the US.
At some point it's gotta make people wonder a little bit... if places like Russia are run by oligarchs, China a domineering government, what does that make the US when we have comparable wealth and income inequality?
We basically have oligarchs that don't mind/will tolerate if people have gay sex and then talk about it on TV.
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On May 12 2018 12:47 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2018 11:53 mierin wrote:
At this point I'm not sure how I feel about China. I'm obviously not a Chinese citizen and can't speak from experience, but their system seems to be superior just from what I've heard. They seem to be honest about what they censor, and their government officials seem to genuinely have China's best interests in mind as opposed to rich individuals (I admit I could be completely wrong about this, I just don't know that much about the country's internal workings). You are, in fact, completely wrong.
Thanks for this enlightening take.
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On May 12 2018 12:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2018 11:53 mierin wrote:
At this point I'm not sure how I feel about China. I'm obviously not a Chinese citizen and can't speak from experience, but their system seems to be superior just from what I've heard. They seem to be honest about what they censor, and their government officials seem to genuinely have China's best interests in mind as opposed to rich individuals (I admit I could be completely wrong about this, I just don't know that much about the country's internal workings). Well it's a little of both. China's rapid growth has seen avg incomes rise significantly (aiming for 100% increase compared to 2010), but it's come at the cost of more capitalistic influence. So while they are enjoying increased wages across the board most gains have been realized at the top as well, though again, more equitably distributed than the US. At some point it's gotta make people wonder a little bit... if places like Russia are run by oligarchs, China a domineering government, what does that make the US when we have comparable wealth and income inequality? We basically have oligarchs that don't mind/will tolerate if people have gay sex and then talk about it on TV.
I think that's the crux of understanding American politics and why nobody seems to understand us. Oligarchs are everywhere, yet somehow the Russian ones are more nefarious than the US ones.
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On May 12 2018 10:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2018 10:34 IgnE wrote:On May 12 2018 06:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:14 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 02:36 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
You are likely right, but it is red meat for budget hawks. Those budget hawks never go after military spending, which spends close to 300 billion on personnel and "operations and maintenance." And like fixing your car, the majority of the costs for maintenance on military equipment is labor. And lets not forget the $125 billion is waste that the Washington Post found in 2016. That story died on the vine.
Really, what needs to happen is we need a PR budget for goverment employees. We will call it "recruitment for civil service". They will get deep into advertising on the NBA. We will have all the players come out every game and, depending on the venue, talk about the importance the census, EPA, FDA, government research grants and the national park service.
We also need civil service bases to make sure there are entrenched communities of voters that are supported by these goverment employees. Government employees could learn a lot from how the military operates. Pretty sure the pentagon has 'adjusted' away enough money to pay for free college and universal healthcare for a few decades . We could do all sorts of things we claim not to have funding for, it's always been a matter of priorities not resources. https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2017/12/08/has-our-government-spent-21-trillion-of-our-money-without-telling-us It is also the largest government employer in the country, with bases in several states that make up a reasonable portion of that state’s economy. And it funds several industries making the basic equipment for the armed services. We love the war machine because it employs so many voters. It's the largest employer in the entire world. The next closest is China’s People’s Liberation Army (with almost 1,000,000 less employees), followed closely by Walmart (~2.1m) as of 2015 anyway. www.marketwatch.comThe US military-industrial complex is the largest employment agency in the world and it reflects in our political actions. Just look at what happened to 'defense' contractors when NK peace talks took a good turn. This is why fighting the war machine is impossible. That is too many people are in that system. We need to learn from the war machine’s tactics and advocate on equal measure for other government agencies. Advocate for the SEC the same way the military advocates as the defenders of American values. The FDA needs to have such a massive budget that it advertises on the super bowl. Give Americans some context for how messed up it is that the NFL has a deal with the US army. Something tells me it would be a little tougher to generate the type of excitement military displays do with the SEC. Maybe if we were publicly executing bankers/brokers? We would run out of bankers real quick and then we have the French Revolution’s problem, executions are crowd pleasers. We can just go full post 2000 Brave New World where our government agencies all push for voter support. They help fund sporting events, bring back Firefly and arrest web designers who make sites with auto playing videos. I think you underestimate the culture of wealth addiction we've cultivated in this country. We could execute several a day and it would still be a growing industry. Though I think gladiator style games would be more attractive. "Want to have a fast paced career saving humanity by killing people? Forget the military, become a SEC Gladiator!" But seriously, neither party has any intentions of actually addressing this mess. They are so hopelessly addicted wealth and power they make Rob Ford look like Scruff McGruff China has more billionaires than we do. That's true, but that's partially due to the more equitable distribution of wealth, even among billionaires.
Chinese per capita GDP in 2016 was roughly $7,000. How can you call a large cohort of billionaires in a country with a per capita GDP of $7000 "more equitable?"
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On May 12 2018 13:53 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2018 10:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 10:34 IgnE wrote:On May 12 2018 06:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:14 Plansix wrote:It is also the largest government employer in the country, with bases in several states that make up a reasonable portion of that state’s economy. And it funds several industries making the basic equipment for the armed services. We love the war machine because it employs so many voters. It's the largest employer in the entire world. The next closest is China’s People’s Liberation Army (with almost 1,000,000 less employees), followed closely by Walmart (~2.1m) as of 2015 anyway. www.marketwatch.comThe US military-industrial complex is the largest employment agency in the world and it reflects in our political actions. Just look at what happened to 'defense' contractors when NK peace talks took a good turn. This is why fighting the war machine is impossible. That is too many people are in that system. We need to learn from the war machine’s tactics and advocate on equal measure for other government agencies. Advocate for the SEC the same way the military advocates as the defenders of American values. The FDA needs to have such a massive budget that it advertises on the super bowl. Give Americans some context for how messed up it is that the NFL has a deal with the US army. Something tells me it would be a little tougher to generate the type of excitement military displays do with the SEC. Maybe if we were publicly executing bankers/brokers? We would run out of bankers real quick and then we have the French Revolution’s problem, executions are crowd pleasers. We can just go full post 2000 Brave New World where our government agencies all push for voter support. They help fund sporting events, bring back Firefly and arrest web designers who make sites with auto playing videos. I think you underestimate the culture of wealth addiction we've cultivated in this country. We could execute several a day and it would still be a growing industry. Though I think gladiator style games would be more attractive. "Want to have a fast paced career saving humanity by killing people? Forget the military, become a SEC Gladiator!" But seriously, neither party has any intentions of actually addressing this mess. They are so hopelessly addicted wealth and power they make Rob Ford look like Scruff McGruff China has more billionaires than we do. That's true, but that's partially due to the more equitable distribution of wealth, even among billionaires. Chinese per capita GDP in 2016 was roughly $7,000. How can you call a large cohort of billionaires in a country with a per capita GDP of $7000 "more equitable?"
*grabs popcorn* I'm REALLY interested in hearing the answer to this question.
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On May 12 2018 13:53 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2018 10:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 10:34 IgnE wrote:On May 12 2018 06:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 06:11 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2018 05:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2018 05:14 Plansix wrote:It is also the largest government employer in the country, with bases in several states that make up a reasonable portion of that state’s economy. And it funds several industries making the basic equipment for the armed services. We love the war machine because it employs so many voters. It's the largest employer in the entire world. The next closest is China’s People’s Liberation Army (with almost 1,000,000 less employees), followed closely by Walmart (~2.1m) as of 2015 anyway. www.marketwatch.comThe US military-industrial complex is the largest employment agency in the world and it reflects in our political actions. Just look at what happened to 'defense' contractors when NK peace talks took a good turn. This is why fighting the war machine is impossible. That is too many people are in that system. We need to learn from the war machine’s tactics and advocate on equal measure for other government agencies. Advocate for the SEC the same way the military advocates as the defenders of American values. The FDA needs to have such a massive budget that it advertises on the super bowl. Give Americans some context for how messed up it is that the NFL has a deal with the US army. Something tells me it would be a little tougher to generate the type of excitement military displays do with the SEC. Maybe if we were publicly executing bankers/brokers? We would run out of bankers real quick and then we have the French Revolution’s problem, executions are crowd pleasers. We can just go full post 2000 Brave New World where our government agencies all push for voter support. They help fund sporting events, bring back Firefly and arrest web designers who make sites with auto playing videos. I think you underestimate the culture of wealth addiction we've cultivated in this country. We could execute several a day and it would still be a growing industry. Though I think gladiator style games would be more attractive. "Want to have a fast paced career saving humanity by killing people? Forget the military, become a SEC Gladiator!" But seriously, neither party has any intentions of actually addressing this mess. They are so hopelessly addicted wealth and power they make Rob Ford look like Scruff McGruff China has more billionaires than we do. That's true, but that's partially due to the more equitable distribution of wealth, even among billionaires. Chinese per capita GDP in 2016 was roughly $7,000. How can you call a large cohort of billionaires in a country with a per capita GDP of $7000 "more equitable?"
Well there's:
The Gini coefficient, a gauge ranging between zero and one that measures income equality, increased slightly to 0.465 last year, from 0.462 in 2015, according to data released by the National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) this week.
A reading of zero would mean everyone’s income was equal, while a reading of one would indicate that all the income was going to one person.
The United Nations considers a Gini coefficient higher than 0.4 a sign of severe income inequality.
The most recent figure for the US was 0.479. In term of cities, Hong Kong recorded an all-time high of 0.539 last year, behind only New York at 0.551.
and
A study from Peking University last year found that the poorest 25 per cent of mainland households owned just 1 per cent of the country’s aggregate wealth, while the richest 1 per cent owned a third of the wealth.
www.scmp.com
But in the US:
America's top 1% now control 38.6% of the nation's wealth, a historic high, according to a new Federal Reserve Report.
www.cnbc.com
and
That leaves just 1% of the total pie for the entire bottom half of the population.
money.cnn.com
That's how I got there.
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Ok but why not just use the gini coefficient to compare US to China?
![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/2014_Gini_Index_World_Map%2C_income_inequality_distribution_by_country_per_World_Bank.svg/863px-2014_Gini_Index_World_Map%2C_income_inequality_distribution_by_country_per_World_Bank.svg.png)
Data from 2014
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On May 12 2018 14:43 IgnE wrote:Ok but why not just use the gini coefficient to compare US to China? Data from 2014
I mean I thought I was reaching with "more equitable" but my data seems to support that and to be more recent and conflict with your data indicating that China is less equitable.
I'm not really trying to cape for China though so if you have more information on the source data and if they have more current information I'd be willing to believe it's merely comparable (though I do see Russia as the same shade as the US  ).
EDIT: Plus I'm Merican, you expect me to be able to ID countries on a map without labels?!?
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You were mixing wealth data with income data.
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Gini coefficient is an estimate, you can find 7 different places with 7 different numbers for both China and the US. That image is not very useful for comparing the two since even a 0.1 difference in a given year from a given source could mean a different color. In the same wiki page that image is from there are two tables (one with data from the World Bank and one from the CIA), both have China with a lower coefficient. Then there's the 2016 UNDP report which has the US lower. And I can't be arsed to look further.
There's no point bothering to argue one way or the other, all we know for sure is that they are close and that both have an embarrassingly unequal income distribution. Though only one of them claims to strive for economic equality.
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On May 12 2018 15:01 IgnE wrote:
You were mixing wealth data with income data.
I included them both, but I don't think I mixed them up?
The gini score refers to income inequality, but our wealth equality is worse too. That's the second half?
I usually just assume you're right about something like this so I'm second guessing myself but I'm pretty sure I explained it right.
Both income and wealth inequality are worse in the US than in China according to the information I cited, are you reading something different?
I think I figured out what happened. I think you missed this part for comparing to the US in terms of income
The most recent figure for the US was 0.479. In term of cities, Hong Kong recorded an all-time high of 0.539 last year, behind only New York at 0.551.
And this part in terms of Chinese wealth distribution:
A study from Peking University last year found that the poorest 25 per cent of mainland households owned just 1 per cent of the country’s aggregate wealth, while the richest 1 per cent owned a third of the wealth.
EDIT: Stripped the data out of the text.
GINI (income inequality) score (0 is best score 1 is worst):
China 0.465
US 0.479
Wealth distribution:
China Top 1% = 33.3% Bottom 25%=1%
US Top 1%=38.5% Bottom 50%=1%
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Ok well maybe so. Although I would expect the wealth distribution to be better in China for various reasons, including the fact that I imagine it is much easier to carry a negative net worth in the US thanks to credit cards, student loans, etc.
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On May 12 2018 15:09 Dan HH wrote:
Gini coefficient is an estimate, you can find 7 different places with 7 different numbers for both China and the US. That image is not very useful for comparing the two since even a 0.1 difference in a given year from a given source could mean a different color. In the same wiki page that image is from there are two tables (one with data from the World Bank and one from the CIA), both have China with a lower coefficient. Then there's the 2016 UNDP report which has the US lower. And I can't be arsed to look further.
There's no point bothering to argue one way or the other, all we know for sure is that they are close and that both have an embarrassingly unequal income distribution. Though only one of them claims to strive for economic equality.
So the one that claims to strive for economic equality is China right?
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On May 12 2018 15:58 IgnE wrote:
Ok well maybe so. Although I would expect the wealth distribution to be better in China for various reasons, including the fact that I imagine it is much easier to carry a negative net worth in the US thanks to credit cards, student loans, etc.
Yeah, and the data is only so reliable. It's just clear that most people assume China is worse, but if you superimposed their income and wealth distribution (at least as documented) onto the US, US citizens (except billionaires) would see their incomes and wealth rise (or debt shrink as the case may be).
How people arrive at the conclusion they aren't getting hosed but those Chinese and Russian people are is beyond me.
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On May 12 2018 14:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Well there's: Show nested quote +The Gini coefficient, a gauge ranging between zero and one that measures income equality, increased slightly to 0.465 last year, from 0.462 in 2015, according to data released by the National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) this week.
A reading of zero would mean everyone’s income was equal, while a reading of one would indicate that all the income was going to one person.
The United Nations considers a Gini coefficient higher than 0.4 a sign of severe income inequality.
The most recent figure for the US was 0.479. In term of cities, Hong Kong recorded an all-time high of 0.539 last year, behind only New York at 0.551.
For the record, Hong Kong is not China. Both in that Hong Kong is not representative of all of China, and that Hong Kong is actually an autonomous region of China that is literally politically and economically separate from the mainland (alongside Macau). Hong Kong is basically the hub of money, trade and business, and Macau is essentially a bigger Las Vegas.
So speaking of economic disparity, most of China doesn't even come close to Hong Kong and Macau (they're the dark blue two in the south-east).
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EPT
