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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1871

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4756 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-31 00:20:28
October 31 2019 00:12 GMT
#37401
One should recall that Democrats have no love for Bolton, so I think that he has an equally strong desire to avoid giving people who hate him any ammo whatsoever. He might even get into it with them, he's no shrinking violet. Democrats might hate him more than conservatives love him (especially in the Trump era). But Bolton has always been his own man, and the article below emphasizes that fact.


I haven't fact checked everything in this article, but it's about this very topic from just a few days ago. It seems fair enough besides the standard bias we assume from mainstream outlets. I've posted the whole thing.


Don’t Bet on John Bolton to Be an Impeachment Hero

The president’s former national security adviser might have opposed the Ukraine scheme. But he also spent his career fighting for the power of the presidency and the limits of congressional inquiry.

After decades of ostracizing much of Washington with his hardline views and sharp elbows, John Bolton now finds himself more popular than ever.

Everyone wants to talk to Bolton amid the inquiry into President Donald Trump and his associates’ pressure campaign against Ukraine, a scheme Bolton, then the national security adviser, reportedly likened to a “drug deal.” On Twitter, some already have welcomed him to the “resistance”; others speculate he’ll end up one of the “heroes” of the impeachment story, a star witness. High-profile agents want to sell his book. And now, it appears Congress wants to hear from Bolton, too—his lawyers are reportedly arranging a deposition.

But no one should get too excited about what Bolton will ultimately say. If he testifies before the congressional inquiry, Bolton will bring more to the hearing room than recollections about the Trump White House. A look at his career—which has been animated by the fight for a strong presidency, especially on matters of foreign policy—suggests his testimony is unlikely to be everything the resistance wants to hear.

Like many in his generation of Republican foreign policy operatives, Bolton began developing his views about the power of the presidency at its nadir. After serving as an intern in Richard Nixon’s White House and graduating from Yale Law School, Bolton opted not to return to an administration mired in Watergate and instead headed into private practice. In his first days as an associate at Covington & Burling, Bolton watched as Nixon was “forced to resign in disgrace,” as he later put it in a memoir.

Bolton’s phrasing was purposeful: In the Watergate era, he saw how an “overreacting” Congress, as he later called it, could limit the president’s authority—for example, with the War Powers Act and independent counsel statute. On campaign finance in particular, Bolton soon made a name for himself and (a decent living) during Jimmy Carter’s administration, litigating against some of the perceived congressional overreach.

Bolton continued that fight when he joined Ronald Reagan’s Justice Department. As assistant attorney general for legislative affairs, Bolton handled some of Congress’ investigations into the Iran-Contra affair, in which some White House aides sold weapons to Iran and then illegally funneled the proceeds to the so-called Contras battling the socialist government in Nicaragua. A decade after Watergate, the scandal set off a firestorm of investigations and questions about the power of the presidency.

Even though the president took responsibility for the mess and did not invoke executive privilege during it, Bolton considered the whole inquiry an “assault on the Reagan presidency,” he later wrote. At the time, he accused special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh, a former judge appointed to investigate Iran-Contra, of using a “wacko theory” of law and spending too much money.

Bolton was not alone: Then-Congressman Dick Cheney opposed the investigation and any attempts to interfere with presidential foreign policy prerogatives. To Cheney and Bolton, Iran-Contra became an important front in the bigger war to rebuild the power of the presidency. In testimony before the Senate Governmental Affairs subcommittee, Bolton called the post-Watergate Ethics in Government Act, which included appointments of independent counsels, “unconstitutional.” He argued in the hearing that, “under the constitutional system of separation of powers, the president or his delegate, must retain the unfettered ability to direct and supervise all executive officials.”

Bolton did not even believe Congress should investigate an actual drug deal. Upon reports that allies of the Contras were also involved in drug running, then-Senator John Kerry sought to get to the bottom of it, only to run into resistance from Bolton. The assistant attorney general stalled requests for information. Then, according to reports by journalist David Corn and others, Bolton worked with Republican members of the committee to end the investigation. One Senate staffer claimed Bolton had “tried to torpedo” the attempt at oversight.

After the Reagan presidency, Bolton, Cheney and their allies continued a long, patient crusade to strengthen the presidency, especially with regard to foreign policy. During the George W. Bush administration, they “supported vigorous executive authority to protect our national security after the 9/11 attacks,” as Bolton and a fellow lawyer later wrote. That included Bolton’s own ambassadorship at the United Nations, which was only achieved through a recess appointment Bush made after Senate Democrats had blocked the nomination in Congress.

As a result of intellectual, administrative and legislative efforts by Bolton and other conservative lawyers, lobbyists and scholars, the presidency recovered much of the authority it had lost after Watergate and Iran-Contra, arguably becoming even more powerful during the post-9/11 wars. Bolton’s long-term belief in the power of the presidency, in fact, is one reason he could work for Trump in the first place, despite his resistance to several Trump policies, on North Korea, Iran and Afghanistan: Bolton could defer, however grudgingly, because he has long believed the president gets the ultimate say.

Although Bolton is now free from Trump, having left the White House in September after 17 months on the job, he faces a similar challenge in the Ukraine investigation, which is shaping up to be in part about the president’s authority over foreign policy. Bolton again has to decide whether to give up on long-held beliefs—this time about the power of the presidency—to be popular in Washington. Of course, subpoenas have a way of making decisions easier. Bolton could just go along to get along, deciding to exact some revenge on Trump with a deposition filled with a detailed litany of any presidential crimes and misdemeanors.

But subpoenas rarely change anyone’s mind, let alone one as disciplined and devoted as Bolton’s. The power of the modern presidency is Bolton’s career legacy, a project he has been working on longer than North Korea, Iran or any one issue. When Trump and his defenders question the legitimacy of today’s inquiry, they’re not just speaking Bolton’s language—they’re using his talking points. Even if Bolton soured on Trump or disagreed with his Ukraine scheme, the current resident of the White House is unlikely to have changed the former national security adviser’s belief that the United States needs a strong commander in chief.

For that reason, Bolton’s decision to consider providing a deposition is as momentous as it surely was tortured. His testimony will likely be the same. Such discomfort might be the reason for the awkwardness of the leaked line that so elated Twitter last week. According to reports about former National Security Council staffer Fiona Hill’s private congressional testimony, Bolton, her boss, apparently wanted it clear, “I am not part of whatever drug deal [U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon] Sondland and [White House chief of staff Mick] Mulvaney are cooking up” in Ukraine. Again, the phrasing matters: If Sondland and Mulvaney were doing the cooking, the president wasn’t.

We should expect more of those sorts of phrases, distinctions and qualifications from Bolton if he testifies. As he did during his tenure as national security adviser, Bolton will seek to keep his hands clean and stay true to his principles, even if he is participating in something that challenges them. Ultimately, Bolton might be willing to undermine a president for pursuing an operation that would appear to violate Bolton’s policy preferences and view of the law. But he is unlikely to undermine the presidency—and principles like executive privilege—any more than he has to.

Toward the end of the Bush administration, in response to a decision about North Korea that Bolton opposed, he wrote, “Nothing can erase the ineffable sadness of an American presidency, like this one, in total intellectual collapse.” Whenever Bolton finally has his say about Trump’s Ukraine scandal, it is likely to be uttered not in anger but in sorrow, not gaily but grudgingly, and in the narrowest way possible. For Bolton, there is something sadder than a presidency’s decline: the collapse of the office itself.

Politico Magazine
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-31 00:53:23
October 31 2019 00:52 GMT
#37402
Oh for sure. Bolton has been someone viewed as dangerous by the Democrats since he returned to government, and through the years has not been someone they've been a fan of to say the least. I imagine if he does end up going along with testifying, it will be somewhat different. As with several of the witnesses, I imagine his testimony would primarily be used to confirm the testimony of other witnesses like Fiona Hill and help fill in gaps in information. He's unlikely to have new information similar to that of Bill Taylor or Alexander Vindman or others who had more first-hand details to provide.

And of course, the media jumped the gun as usual, and now Bolton's lawyer says he will only testify if issued a subpoena. The committees have been subpoenaing people, but there are specific cases where they haven't been, like certain advisors.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-31 14:21:58
October 31 2019 13:29 GMT
#37403
At this point any testimony from anyone is primarily for confirmation/contradiction reasons. The statements that have been publicly released make it clear that multiple diplomatic staff believe that Trump was directing them to condition meetings and/or security aid on an investigation into a political opponent's child (or a conspiracy theory related to the opposing political party). Many of these accounts were documented contemporaneously, as well. The closest thing to an "exonerating" message happened after Trump was notified of the whistleblower at Trump's direction.

The central defense will continue to be "these people are secret Democrats and are lying to you except the parts of their story that support Trump and it's totally not illegal anyway even though we said it would be and would expel a Democrat for it" because that's really all Trump has, especially since he foolishly set the quid pro quo goalposts even though a quid is sufficiently illegal. They can't produce any tapes or even the full transcript of the Ukraine call, because the tapes don't exist and the real transcript would make it clear that the "perfect and complete" memo "transcript" was edited for content.

Because of this, the only thing additional witnesses can add is to be people that those who doubt the story trust. And the state of the Republican party is such that none of those people exist except for Trump. The man and his "totally not state" media will make anyone into a secret Democrat or RINO, even Bolton, and his supporters will eat it up. Even if Guiliani came forward and admitted to coordinating a tit for tat, he would suddenly become a secret Democrat.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
October 31 2019 14:44 GMT
#37404
Trump in one of his tweets already admit it was all true. He's not playing the angle that people testifying against him are secret Democrats, but that they are traitors and that he has every right to do so.
redlightdistrict
Profile Joined October 2018
382 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-31 15:16:55
October 31 2019 15:16 GMT
#37405
Why is news cycle picking up the Epstien thing again? They already told us what happened, ruled the cause of death a suicide, and closed the criminal case. The dudes been dead for 3 months. Now they are taking about opening it back up because somebody working for the Epstein's wants to file a civil suit based on a conspiracy that happened inside the jail? I don't what the endgame is by bringing this case back into the public eye.
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8080 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-31 15:28:34
October 31 2019 15:27 GMT
#37406
On November 01 2019 00:16 redlightdistrict wrote:
Why is news cycle picking up the Epstien thing again? They already told us what happened, ruled the cause of death a suicide, and closed the criminal case. The dudes been dead for 3 months. Now they are taking about opening it back up because somebody working for the Epstein's wants to file a civil suit based on a conspiracy that happened inside the jail? I don't what the endgame is by bringing this case back into the public eye.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr_C076NRFQ


It's not a conspiracy theory when most of the evidence just doesn't add up. Whether it was a suicide or not remains to be seen, but you absolutely can not make that conclusion based on the evidence which has been presented to the public so far.

Dude's been dead for 3 months, yes, and that's 3 months way too long without a proper investigation. The fact that we have not had one is absolutely disgusting. This isn't an episode of The Punisher. When people die in their jail cells with inconsistent strangulation marks, and all cameras die while the guards simultaneously forget to make their usual rounds for 3 hours, you don't just laugh it off as a suicide. There doesn't have to be any other endgame than to get to the truth.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-31 15:28:34
October 31 2019 15:27 GMT
#37407
On November 01 2019 00:16 redlightdistrict wrote:

You honestly can't think why investigating how an influential and powerful man who blackmailed other influential and powerful people in pedophile parties, dying in very suspicious circumstances would be in the public interest?

Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
October 31 2019 15:40 GMT
#37408
On November 01 2019 00:27 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 01 2019 00:16 redlightdistrict wrote:

You honestly can't think why investigating how an influential and powerful man who blackmailed other influential and powerful people in pedophile parties, dying in very suspicious circumstances would be in the public interest?



Beat me to it. This shit stinks to high heaven, and just a week ago I thought the possibility of murder was laughable.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
October 31 2019 15:46 GMT
#37409
Even if it was a suicide, it's quite bad to have a inmate die in such a high security prison. The number of system failures happening at once is concerning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-31 15:51:30
October 31 2019 15:49 GMT
#37410
The thing that baffles me about this new buzz is that the fact that some of the neck fractures were inconsistent with hanging was already known. The only "new" thing I see is that the actual medical examiner said "inconsistent, but possible" and the MD observer paid by Epstein's brother is saying "inconsistent, and impossible" publicly.

Is that really enough to change anyone's appraisal of the situation? Maybe if the actual coroner had changed their report or the provider of the second opinion wasn't paid by Epstein's family, it would change mine, but as is I don't really give it the enormous earth-shattering "now we know he was murdered!" weight others seem to.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
October 31 2019 15:55 GMT
#37411
The status of the hyoid bone as a basis for determining manner of death is not the prominent indicator that many are making it out to be, particularly in older folks given the likelihood that an older individual will have a calcified, weaker hyoid that can break regardless of the circumstances of the asphyxia in question.

There is other circumstantial evidence indicating strangulation, but the medical evidence seems fairly ambivalent. Dr. Baden, who is the forensic pathologist championing the “medical evidence proves he was murdered” theory, is an exposure whore who does not have an especially good reputation among the forensic pathologist community.

All that said, I definitely still think foul play was involved.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-31 16:03:45
October 31 2019 16:02 GMT
#37412
Impeachment inquiry proceedings have now been confirmed by house vote, 232 to 196 against.

After all their complaints about not formalizing the ruleset, now all republicans voted against the formalization anyway. Not a single one with a spine while some keep anonymously telling press how awful they feel for having to defend the president. What a pathetic bunch.

Like just look at this:

Neosteel Enthusiast
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8080 Posts
October 31 2019 16:04 GMT
#37413
I thought these people were in favour of the soviet style, considering how deep in the Russian pockets they must be to behave the way they are..
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35150 Posts
October 31 2019 17:08 GMT
#37414
This is the GOP though.

Gaslight
Obstruct
Project
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21688 Posts
October 31 2019 17:15 GMT
#37415
So Republicans are still busy trying to pretend that they didn't have access to the hearings or the ability to ask questions to any witness?
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1944 Posts
October 31 2019 17:28 GMT
#37416
In regards to epstein, in Germany a similar case is warming up again. An inmate was neglected for a few hours and then, according to the guards, must have somehow managed to burn the bed he was, for some reason, shackled too. Turns out, 15 years later, that he might have been almost clubbed to death before he decided to burn himself alive to death. Surely in your case everything was just a coincidence though.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15689 Posts
October 31 2019 17:55 GMT
#37417
One thing I think is funny about Trump is that the term "witch hunt" won't be used anymore. Instead of meaning "illegitimate hunt", it will now mean "entirely valid hunt". So people won't use it as a douchey politico buzz word. yay!
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
October 31 2019 18:24 GMT
#37418
Could also start sayin which hunt cause it's not entirely clear which crime this hunt for justice is about.
passive quaranstream fan
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
October 31 2019 19:24 GMT
#37419
On November 01 2019 00:55 farvacola wrote:
The status of the hyoid bone as a basis for determining manner of death is not the prominent indicator that many are making it out to be, particularly in older folks given the likelihood that an older individual will have a calcified, weaker hyoid that can break regardless of the circumstances of the asphyxia in question.

There is other circumstantial evidence indicating strangulation, but the medical evidence seems fairly ambivalent. Dr. Baden, who is the forensic pathologist championing the “medical evidence proves he was murdered” theory, is an exposure whore who does not have an especially good reputation among the forensic pathologist community.

All that said, I definitely still think foul play was involved.


You hit the nail on the head. I'm an RN with hospital and prison experience. I work in a prison now actually. One of the two fatalities this facility has had involved a guy strangling another guy, as well as many attempted strangulations during fights. I personally find it hard to believe that Epstein, despite his advanced age, broke his hyoid bone from kneeling/sitting to cut off blood supply to his brain. His noose would have likely been higher up on his neck, to avoid any anatomical structures from preventing occlusion of his carotid arteries. Which would have put the ligature right over his hyoid bone. But the lack of intense or a snapping kind of pressure should not have caused any exceptional trauma. It's possible, but like above poster, I find it highly unlikely.

And that doesn't even address the procedural and policy issues with his death that make no sense to me as someone who works in the industry.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25354 Posts
October 31 2019 19:48 GMT
#37420
There should have been a thorough investigation, the lack of one is rather odd. Even if he wasn’t particularly high profile there seems to be many systemic failures here.

Hypothetically even if Epstein 100% did commit suicide and any further investigation found this to be the case, the lag period I feel means few would believe it anyway.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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