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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On September 06 2019 11:41 GreenHorizons wrote: Our military is in ~150 countries and our citizens couldn't find most of them on a map. Ah, interesting point. Do you think if they could that would change anything? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22962 Posts
On September 06 2019 11:46 IgnE wrote: Ah, interesting point. Do you think if they could that would change anything? If there was a requirement we couldn't be in any country that couldn't be readily identified on a map by 85%+ of our population it would. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17902 Posts
On September 06 2019 11:48 GreenHorizons wrote: If there was a requirement we couldn't be in any country that couldn't be readily identified on a map by 85%+ of our population it would. Would it really? I learned to memorize the names of a lot of countries and their capitals in elementary school geography. Didn't learn anything else about most of them. Even now, I might confuse Liberia with one of its neighbours, but I will point to the right general area at least. How would such superficial memorization help? I mean, I suspect that the pedagogy behind it is that learning the name and location of other places makes you are of their existence and might work curiosity to learn more about these places with weird names? I don't know. I doubt rote memorization of placenames is still taught, but maybe? | ||
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Simberto
Germany11402 Posts
However, i also agree with the more general idea that it would be good if people actually knew where the troops are, and especially why. The military is supposed to be an extension of the democratic will of the people. And how can it be that if the people have no idea what it is doing, or why? I don't know if it is realistic to expect every single layperson to know all of the reasons why you have troops in so many countries (though that might already be a sign that maybe you don't actually need troops in that many countries?), but i think it would be fun to randomly ask politicians (and especially presidents, whose job it is to know these things) to explain things like that in interviews. "Could you quickly explain why we have troops in Hungary, and what they are doing there?". Not necessarily only focused on military either. Dunno if that is productive or vindictive, but it sounds fun. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22962 Posts
On September 06 2019 18:23 Acrofales wrote: Would it really? I learned to memorize the names of a lot of countries and their capitals in elementary school geography. Didn't learn anything else about most of them. Even now, I might confuse Liberia with one of its neighbours, but I will point to the right general area at least. How would such superficial memorization help? I mean, I suspect that the pedagogy behind it is that learning the name and location of other places makes you are of their existence and might work curiosity to learn more about these places with weird names? I don't know. I doubt rote memorization of placenames is still taught, but maybe? We're exchanging flippant remarks. I don't think literal wrote memorization is an insurmountable hurdle for the military industrial machine combined with our political system. Even our unfortunate public education system could probably muster that with such a premium placed on the outcome. More that it's emblematic of our remarkable insularity as I've articulated it. While we're not that much less knowledgeable than the rest of the developed world about things outside of our own experiences (locations of countries as a bare minimum example), no other country is so bold in their ignorance and prolific in their meddling in global affairs and cultures. That's what I was trying to pithily articulate with the thing about military bases in countries most people couldn't find on a map let alone have any real idea of why we're there or what we're doing there. Also we have an obscene amount of resources to remedy that and deliberately choose not to (getting back to what I find problematic about the framing and focusing on backwater Christians instead of the systems at play). FWIW there has been research, and while probably not much (and the research is shaky), it could help maybe? If Americans Can Find North Korea on a Map, They’re More Likely to Prefer Diplomacy EDIT: I don't know if it is realistic to expect every single layperson to know all of the reasons why you have troops in so many countries (though that might already be a sign that maybe you don't actually need troops in that many countries?) In a dream scenario of this extremely rudimentary (was meant flippantly) "solution" one hopes our insularity grants us this question coming up in wrote memorization classes around the country out of frustration with the difficulty of the task, if nothing else. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On September 06 2019 05:18 Grumbels wrote: I recall my parents telling me that an American exchange student that was supposed to come live with us canceled, because they feared the proximity of the Netherlands to the war in Bosnia. I don't know if they made that up, since I was very young then, but it always struck me as both plausible and ridiculous. I recall MY American exchange student (and overall the whole class, at around 11yo), was completely unfit socially. Couldn't attend a meal for more than 10minutes since it was not alone on the sofa in front of tv, was unable to spend a day without having to speak for 2+hours with family (imagine the price of international phone comms in 1995...), refused to go anywhere and couldn't be bothered to talk a word of French (then what's the point of a 2-week exchange...), had no idea about the geography of france (I live in fucking Normandy, 4km from the landing beaches, if there's ONE place Americans should know about...???). We brought her to Louvre after a 3h drive because this was the only thing she knew and managed to told us she was interested in : speed-walked the whole museum in 1h, spent the afternoon in the shops below. Overall , she made absolutely no effort to adapt to another way of living than hers. My whole class had a similar experience, it was a complete waste of time. Probably a bit too young though. The return trip was really strange as well, as we were basically left to our own devices. The parents tried a little bit, the children couldn't care less. We weren't made to even discover the area or the culture, only staying home and eating alone from the fridge at whatever hours in pajamas. But a nice exemple of the insularity we are talking about. Edit : should write the place : Miami... Not exactly deeply removed America xD | ||
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Simberto
Germany11402 Posts
On September 06 2019 19:00 GreenHorizons wrote: FWIW there has been research, and while probably not much (and the research is shaky), it could help maybe? If Americans Can Find North Korea on a Map, They’re More Likely to Prefer Diplomacy Be careful here. Just because there is a correlation between two things does not mean that one causes the other, or even that changing one would change the other. In this case, i think it is reasonable to guess that there is actually a third factor that influences both. My guess would be that a higher level of education and a higher interest in political stuff both increases your ability to find NK on a map, and reduces the probability that you think military action would be good. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22962 Posts
On September 06 2019 19:36 Simberto wrote: Be careful here. Just because there is a correlation between two things does not mean that one causes the other, or even that changing one would change the other. In this case, i think it is reasonable to guess that there is actually a third factor that influences both. My guess would be that a higher level of education and a higher interest in political stuff both increases your ability to find NK on a map, and reduces the probability that you think military action would be good. That's what the "fwiw/shaky/help maybe?" is about haha. If it's not clear I think our vast and global military expansionism is problematic and the general lack of awareness and insularity of communities within the US and the US at large is a significant contributing factor. My point (it's not that teaching kids geography is a silver bullet lol) is that if we critically engage (this is always what I'm advocating unless I'm being facetious or whatever) with our own conduct and become more aware of other cultures and experiences outside of our own/our immediate geographical communities the motivation to oppress, maim, and kill so many people becomes less desirable than it is under capitalist frameworks which try to alleviate the earned discomfort of benefiting from that unimaginable suffering with fairy tales of a meritocracy and the American Dream. | ||
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farvacola
United States18820 Posts
On September 06 2019 19:27 Nouar wrote: I recall MY American exchange student (and overall the whole class, at around 11yo), was completely unfit socially. Couldn't attend a meal for more than 10minutes since it was not alone on the sofa in front of tv, was unable to spend a day without having to speak for 2+hours with family (imagine the price of international phone comms in 1995...), refused to go anywhere and couldn't be bothered to talk a word of French (then what's the point of a 2-week exchange...), had no idea about the geography of france (I live in fucking Normandy, 4km from the landing beaches, if there's ONE place Americans should know about...???). We brought her to Louvre after a 3h drive because this was the only thing she knew and managed to told us she was interested in : speed-walked the whole museum in 1h, spent the afternoon in the shops below. Overall , she made absolutely no effort to adapt to another way of living than hers. My whole class had a similar experience, it was a complete waste of time. Probably a bit too young though. The return trip was really strange as well, as we were basically left to our own devices. The parents tried a little bit, the children couldn't care less. We weren't made to even discover the area or the culture, only staying home and eating alone from the fridge at whatever hours in pajamas. But a nice exemple of the insularity we are talking about. Edit : should write the place : Miami... Not exactly deeply removed America xD I mean, I could reference my experience with European exchange students and how many of them were uncouth, impolite, and/or womanizers in support of some generalizing notion, but I won't, because that'd be silly. As someone who grew up among pretty stark contrasts between cosmopolitan urbanism and conservative ruralism here in the Midwest, I find that, even as an American myself, I am usually wrong when attempting to paint too broad a picture depicting other Americans (or other populations in general). The notion that the US is full to the brim with contrasts is as close to true as those kinds of notions go, I think. Americans are crass, awful people, but they are also very compassionate, hard-working, and gracious. I presume that similar dynamics are at play in every nation. Besides, there are some differences between the US and Europe in terms how ability to travel selects certain folks out. It would not be surprising to me whatsoever if it were true that the majority of Americans who do exchange programs or travel abroad otherwise put on a poor show in terms of representing Americans, but I'd ask that you forego creating an avaliailbity heuristic that stretches that representation too far. As an aside, that's one of the things I love about this site, it gives me daily reminders that popular ideas about how people from other countries act and communicate rarely align with the reality. | ||
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farvacola
United States18820 Posts
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ZerOCoolSC2
8960 Posts
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On September 06 2019 20:26 farvacola wrote: I mean, I could reference my experience with European exchange students and how many of them were uncouth, impolite, and/or womanizers in support of some generalizing notion, but I won't, because that'd be silly. As someone who grew up among pretty stark contrasts between cosmopolitan urbanism and conservative ruralism here in the Midwest, I find that, even as an American myself, I am usually wrong when attempting to paint too broad a picture depicting other Americans (or other populations in general). The notion that the US is full to the brim with contrasts is as close to true as those kinds of notions go, I think. Americans are crass, awful people, but they are also very compassionate, hard-working, and gracious. I presume that similar dynamics are at play in every nation. Besides, there are some differences between the US and Europe in terms how ability to travel selects certain folks out. It would not be surprising to me whatsoever if it were true that the majority of Americans who do exchange programs or travel abroad otherwise put on a poor show in terms of representing Americans, but I'd ask that you forego creating an avaliailbity heuristic that stretches that representation too far. As an aside, that's one of the things I love about this site, it gives me daily reminders that popular ideas about how people from other countries act and communicate rarely align with the reality. I wanted initially to write that this experience was not to be generalised to all Americans (even I did not assume that myself), but over the course of writing it, I forgot to add it. It's of course, just one experience with specific people, a specific place, at a specific time, to be taken in its own microcosm. However, I still found more similarities across all Americans I stumbled upon over the course of my life, than, say, between an English and a Spanish. The rythm of the day, culture, manners, behaviour, habits, what is polite or not, are much farther apart than what I've seen in Americans coming from all parts of the US (not counting Alaska xD). It is to note that these Americans all had in common some level of education and experience travelling or living abroad, which should be taken into account. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3942 Posts
On September 06 2019 21:44 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Robert Mugabe, authoritarian ruler of Zimbabwe passed last night/this morning. I wonder if the US had picked a replacement or will let this one play out as it should. I think after Libya and Egypt, we've slowed our meddling into choosing leaders a bit. A replacement for what? He was couped out 2 years ago. | ||
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farvacola
United States18820 Posts
On September 06 2019 21:46 Nouar wrote: I wanted initially to write that this experience was not to be generalised to all Americans (even I did not assume that myself), but over the course of writing it, I forgot to add it. It's of course, just one experience with specific people, a specific place, at a specific time, to be taken in its own microcosm. However, I still found more similarities across all Americans I stumbled upon over the course of my life, than, say, between an English and a Spanish. The rythm of the day, culture, manners, behaviour, habits, what is polite or not, are much farther apart than what I've seen in Americans coming from all parts of the US (not counting Alaska xD). It is to note that these Americans all had in common some level of education and experience travelling or living abroad, which should be taken into account. I can buy that with a grain of salt, so long as it is acknowledged alongside the caveat that the US is still very much in the development stage in which it has to wrestle with what exactly being American means and that perceived differences between regions, demographics, and localities are front and center in terms of being a political object. Folks in nations throughout the world fight over what constitutes their national identity, but I think that fight in America has some relatively unique properties that require a different analysis. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8960 Posts
On September 06 2019 21:47 mahrgell wrote: A replacement for what? He was couped out 2 years ago. Once in power, especially in war torn areas, always in power (Fidel Castro comes immediately to mind). May not be direct, but I'm sure he had influence and some modicum of power throughout the country still (regarding followers). Replacing him with a more charismatic person or someone that is more favorable to the Western countries and their ideals. | ||
KwarK
United States42229 Posts
On September 06 2019 21:44 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Robert Mugabe, authoritarian ruler of Zimbabwe passed last night/this morning. I wonder if the US had picked a replacement or will let this one play out as it should. I think after Libya and Egypt, we've slowed our meddling into choosing leaders a bit. Mugabe wasn’t a proxy. He was a failure of British non-interventionism. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8960 Posts
On September 06 2019 23:22 KwarK wrote: Mugabe wasn’t a proxy. He was a failure of British non-interventionism. I wasn't trying to imply he was some kind of US/Western power puppet. Just that he kept the region in disarray either through direct or indirect actions. A lot of people were emigrating from there because of him. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22962 Posts
Warren and Clinton talk behind the scenes as 2020 race intensifies Analysis: Neither camp wants to talk about it, but the two women have recently grown closer. The two women have kept a line of communication open since the Massachusetts senator decided to run for president — though only a conversation around the time of Warren's launch has been previously reported — according to several people familiar with their discussions who spoke to NBC on the condition of anonymity because of the political sensitivity of private interactions. It’s hard to know exactly how many times they’ve reached out to each other — or precisely what they’ve discussed — in part because neither camp wants to reveal much of anything about their interaction and in part because they have each other's phone numbers, and there are many ways for two high-powered politicians to communicate that don’t involve their staffs. But Warren has made little effort to publicly highlight ties to Clinton, who is perceived by many on the left as too centrist and who was defeated... To the extent that Democratic primary voters fear a repeat scenario in 2020 — and to the extent that she's competing with Sanders for the votes of progressives — there may be good reason for Warren to keep her distance from Clinton publicly. At the same time, people who know and like both women say there are more similarities between them than some of their partisans would like to admit. More important, an explicit or implicit blessing from Clinton could help Warren if she finds herself battling for delegates and superdelegates at a contested Democratic convention next summer. When Clinton was developing policies for her own campaign in 2015, her aides kept in close contact with Warren to give her an opportunity to raise concerns before they were rolled out... By that point, Warren already had opted out of mounting her own campaign — disappointing many progressives — when she signed a letter, along with other Democratic women in the Senate encouraging Clinton to run. www.nbcnews.com Looks like Clinton is done with the also rans and has zeroed her sights on Warren as her surrogate. Interesting since Biden is superficially the closest to her policy wise (which suggests to me that Warren's policy is preferable to Clinton Dems over Sanders or even Biden). | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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