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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1629

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21787 Posts
July 03 2019 16:19 GMT
#32561
On July 04 2019 01:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, the US justice system, at its finest:

If this is the way the law is supposed to work, what chance do poor people have?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/03/new-jersey-teen-judge-court-good-family

Show nested quote +
A judge suggested that a teenage boy accused of raping a drunk girl at a party should be treated leniently because he came from “a good family”, and cast doubt on whether such an attack amounted to rape at all.

Judge James Troiano in New Jersey made the remarks while ruling that the boy, who was identified only as “GMC”, should not face trial as an adult for allegedly raping a 16-year-old girl while recording the incident on his mobile phone.

“This young man comes from a good family who put him into an excellent school where he was doing extremely well,” Troiano said. “He is clearly a candidate for not just college but probably for a good college. His scores for college entry were very high.” Troiano, 69, also noted that the boy was an Eagle Scout.

Investigators said GMC sent a clip of the alleged rape to seven of his friends, and later sent a text adding: “When your first time having sex is rape.” Yet Troiano suggested that, in his view, the alleged incident was a sexual assault rather than a rape.

You really should read the article.
This was from a year ago and its in the news now because an appeal court threw that Judge's ruling out because he was way out of line.
So no, this is not how the law is supposed to work.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Kyadytim
Profile Joined March 2009
United States886 Posts
July 03 2019 16:24 GMT
#32562
On July 04 2019 01:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, the US justice system, at its finest:

If this is the way the law is supposed to work, what chance do poor people have?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/03/new-jersey-teen-judge-court-good-family

Show nested quote +
A judge suggested that a teenage boy accused of raping a drunk girl at a party should be treated leniently because he came from “a good family”, and cast doubt on whether such an attack amounted to rape at all.

Judge James Troiano in New Jersey made the remarks while ruling that the boy, who was identified only as “GMC”, should not face trial as an adult for allegedly raping a 16-year-old girl while recording the incident on his mobile phone.

“This young man comes from a good family who put him into an excellent school where he was doing extremely well,” Troiano said. “He is clearly a candidate for not just college but probably for a good college. His scores for college entry were very high.” Troiano, 69, also noted that the boy was an Eagle Scout.

Investigators said GMC sent a clip of the alleged rape to seven of his friends, and later sent a text adding: “When your first time having sex is rape.” Yet Troiano suggested that, in his view, the alleged incident was a sexual assault rather than a rape.


Hold up a second. I'm pretty sure teenage couples have gotten in trouble and charged with child pornography related crimes for sexting each other, but he recorded himself having sex with an under-18 girl and distributed the video and that gets nothing?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23294 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-03 16:26:19
July 03 2019 16:24 GMT
#32563
On July 04 2019 01:08 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 03 2019 22:57 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 03 2019 22:45 Acrofales wrote:
On July 03 2019 22:23 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 03 2019 22:14 Ryzel wrote:
On July 03 2019 04:08 Ozymandias from “The Watchmen” wrote:
There is no such thing as a "right morality", if there was the world would be a lot simpler. I cannot demonstrate that my morality is the right one, nor am I attempting to. You shouldn't either. All we can see is whether my morality is consistent, and I think it is. What gives me the moral high ground over the power-hungry people in this world is the goal and the consequences of the violence I am supporting vs the goal and the consequences of the violence they are supporting.


Fixed.


You guys have a ton of references that I don't have.

He replaced you with someone who manipulated shit so half the world population got wiped out, but the end result was an "alien"-enforced worldwide peace accord in which all of humanity's weapons were rendered useless and they literally couldn't wage war anymore. In other words. the end justifies the means taken to its extreme.

+ Show Spoiler +
I say alien, because Dr. Manhattan was not human anymore


He identified your whole spiel there as a pretty horrific "end justifies the means" thingy. The problem with any such thing is that we have to agree with the end. Your end is, I guess, a world in which there is no overt fascism? Does that really justify the means of systematic violence against them? Especially as there are other means to reach that end, as we have shown in post-WW2 Europe, where fascism is simply illegal. Fascistic organizations are illegal. Fascist propaganda is illegal. And we have no overt fascism.

Now you can say that we fought one of the most violent wars in human history before we got to the point where we passed those laws, but I don't think it is necessary to fight fascism with violence first, rather than skipping straight to the part where we as a society recognize it is a dangerous and horrific ideology and ban it in other places than just western Europe.

Moreover, if you look at the end goal of fascism, it is actually quite attractive. No less so than the communist end goal. Neither can work at all given human nature (communism because people are selfish and greedy, and fascism because society is not homogenous, and never will be). The main problem with fascism isn't the goal, it's the means. It very explicitly glorifies violence as the means to the end. You doing so yourself makes you no better than those fascists you want to fight.



We have the guy who comes around and says:
"I want to restrict the rights of millions of people because of their race, heritage, sexual orientation or political views."
Then the other guy answers:
"I want to stop that guy by any means necessary, even by violence."
And you're on the side going:
"I literally can't tell the difference."


That pretty much sums up what I've seen. "All violence is bad" is so reductive it leaves people unable to distinguish someone who wants to commit genocide from someone who is willing to use violence to prevent it.

I also want to know what the hell the people that think fascists should be talked out of their positions are waiting for? Who are they expecting to do that for them?

If you're talking about me, I don't think talking fascists out of their ideas is going to go anywhere. That said, having random groups of thugs (aka antifa) decide who is a fascist and who isn't and go around beating them up is not the "violence" I'd use to prevent fascism.


One among many (beyond this forum) but yes I think it describes the (typically) liberal position rather well.

Rather if, as a society, we decide fascism is such a dangerous idea that violence against it is justified, then we pass a law that says so, and we have "institutionalized violence" deal with fascists (e.g. the police can arrest members of fascist organizations and throw them in jail).


Ah yes, have the fascists arrest themselves, just like the politicians prevent their own corruption.

The correct response to fascists isn't to punch them in the face, it is to phone your congressman and let him know fascism is a real problem that you want him to do something about.


No it's not. That's an absolutely useless response.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 03 2019 16:26 GMT
#32564
On July 04 2019 00:52 Howie_Dewitt wrote:
In other news, Edward Gallagher was acquitted of every charge but the one they had a photo of; despite a text and picture from him days after the event bsaying he killed the teen with his own knife, two eyewitnesses saying they saw him doing the stabbing, and other earwitness reports of Gallagher saying that he did it and that he thought everyone was cool with it, the case looks like it was mostly decided on a named witness who changed their testimony halfway through the trial to say that they committed the murder instead, with no evidence to support that claim. This is the guy who got turned in by his own squad for being a killer along soldiers, and he's going to be let go.

This seems really messed up. The defense team said it was a conspiracy because a Navy SEAL wasn't coddling his group (??? I thought they never got coddled at all because they're supposed to be super elite soldiers), and this also wasn't an isolated event. This is the same guy who was said to be sniping civilians. I admit that I don't pay attention to battlefield matters that much, but is this normal? I imagine GH would say yes, and I'd like to hear his answer, but I'd like to hear someone else with subject knowledge here too. Is this routine shit?

NYTimes article, I copied the text of it below.
+ Show Spoiler +
SAN DIEGO — In a war-crimes trial that roiled the elite Navy SEALs and drew the attention of President Trump, a decorated eight-tour SEAL platoon leader was found not guilty on Tuesday of first-degree murder of a captive ISIS fighter and attempted murder of civilians in Iraq.

But the platoon leader, Special Operations Chief Edward Gallagher, was convicted of one charge: posing for photos with the teenage captive’s dead body.

Chief Gallagher, 40, who was serving with SEAL Team 7, became a rallying cause of some Republicans in Congress and members of the conservative media. Mr. Trump said on Twitter in March that he would have the chief released from pretrial confinement “in honor of his past service to our country.”

On Wednesday, Mr. Trump congratulated Chief Gallagher in a Twitter message and added, “Glad I could help!”

Because the maximum sentence Chief Gallagher could now face is four months, and he has spent more time than that in pretrial confinement, he was expected to go free after sentencing on Wednesday. But he could still face administrative punishment from the Navy, including an other-than-honorable discharge.

The chief was turned in by his own platoon last spring. Several fellow SEALs reported that their leader had shot civilians and killed the captive Islamic State fighter with a custom hunting knife during a deployment in Iraq in 2017. He was also charged with obstruction of justice by threatening to kill SEALs who reported him.

In the SEALs, Chief Gallagher had a reputation as a “pirate” — an operator more interested in fighting terrorists than in adhering to the rules and making rank. When members of his platoon reported his actions to superior officers, fissures were revealed in the polished image of the SEALs and the unwritten code of silence among members of the secretive force, who see themselves as a brotherhood.

Some of the platoon members who spoke out were called traitors in a closed Facebook group and were threatened with violence. In court, some said they had started carrying weapons for self-defense.

From the beginning, the Navy portrayed the murder case in particular as a simple one with eyewitnesses to the crime and a culprit whose text messages appeared to admit guilt. But the military repeatedly stumbled in investigating and prosecuting the chief.

The SEAL command initially downplayed the platoon members’ reports about the chief, and did not start an investigation of the alleged crimes for more than a year, allowing the trail of evidence to grow cold. The lead prosecutor was removed from the case in May after he was caught improperly attaching tracking software to email messages sent to defense lawyers, leaving his replacement with just a few weeks to catch up before trial. And a key witness changed his story on the stand to favor Chief Gallagher.

The witness, Special Operator First Class Corey Scott, a SEAL medic who was given immunity from prosecution by the Navy, stunned prosecutors by testifying that he, and not Chief Gallagher, had killed the captive, by covering a breathing tube inserted in the captive’s neck. His testimony also deviated in other significant ways from what he had told investigators before trial; the Navy has indicated it is considering charging him with perjury.

In a courtroom at Naval Base San Diego, close to the harbor where hulking destroyers and missile cruisers dock, a jury of five Marines, a member of the SEALs and a Navy officer, nearly all with combat experience, spent two weeks hearing testimony in the trial, including unvarnished accounts of one platoon in the Navy’s celebrated elite commando force. They deliberated for a little more than eight hours before reaching a verdict.

“The jury found him not guilty of the murder, not guilty of the stabbing, not guilty of the stabbings, not guilty of all those things,” one of his lawyers, Timothy Parlatore, told reporters outside the courtroom. “They did find him guilty of taking a photograph with a dead terrorist, which we admitted from the beginning.”

Chief Gallagher sat stoically in the courtroom in a white dress uniform during the trial, with his wife, brother, mother and father, who was a West Point graduate, sitting behind him. He did not testify.

Marc Mukasey, another of his lawyers, said the chief began to cry when the verdict was read. He described the moment as “tears of joy, elation, freedom, absolute euphoria.”

Chief Gallagher emerged from the courthouse beaming, hugging his wife and brother as photographers thronged around his legal team.

Bernard Kerik, the former New York police commissioner who put the team together, said it was time to stop second-guessing the men and women fighting overseas.

“Let them do their job. Eddie Gallagher did his job,” Mr. Kerik said. “He’s a hero. He’s a hero in the eyes of every American who followed this case.”

There was little physical evidence in the case, so the trial hinged on the credibility of the platoon members who testified. Prosecutors held them up as courageous whistle-blowers who broke the SEAL code of silence to stop a rogue chief who was on a track to higher leadership positions. The defense painted the accusers as scared and entitled millennials who could not meet their chief’s high expectations, and fabricated war-crimes allegations to take him down.

“He didn’t coddle them,” Mr. Parlatore told the jury, so the platoon “fomented a plan of hate and mutiny.”

The case centered around the death of the captive fighter, who was brought in to the SEALs’ command post near Mosul, Iraq, by Iraqi forces. SEALs testified that after giving the fighter first aid, Chief Gallagher, a trained medic, stabbed the fighter repeatedly in the neck.

SEALs from the platoon also accused him of firing from a sniper post at unarmed civilians who posed no threat, including an old man and a schoolgirl. Chief Gallagher denied all the charges.

About 20 minutes after the captive died, Chief Gallagher posed for what both sides in the trial described as trophy photos with the corpse. In one hand he held the captive’s hair; in the other he held a small, custom-made hunting knife by the captive’s bandaged neck. Some of the photos show several other SEALs gathered around and smiling.

A few days later, Chief Gallagher texted the photo to comrades in the United States, sending one the message, “Good story behind this, got him with my hunting knife.”

During two weeks of testimony, two SEALs testified that they had seen Chief Gallagher stab the captive in the neck for no clear reason. Several others said that they heard the chief admit to the killing that evening when confronted by the platoon, and that he told them, “I thought everyone would be cool with it; next time, I’ll do it where you can’t see.”

The defense described the accusers as disgruntled conspirators who plotted in a group text chat they called the “sewing circle.” The chief’s lawyers said the men were bitter because their chief was stealing snacks from them, needlessly exposing them to fire and then calling them cowards when they questioned his tactics.

The defense argued that the evidence for the charges of shooting civilians was so vague that in one case it amounted to little more than one sniper saying he thought he saw Chief Gallagher shoot someone, but did not actually see Chief Gallagher pull the trigger.

“There is no physical proof this ever happened, no date, no day, no photos, no video,” Mr. Mukasey told the jury. “There is no proof they ever happened, period.”

In rebuttal on Monday, Lt. Scott McDonald, one of the Navy prosecutors, told the jury that the defense’s theory of a platoon conspiracy did not make sense because Chief Gallagher’s text messages of him posing with the corpse were not discovered until months after platoon members reported the stabbing to law enforcement.

“An incredible coincidence,” Lieutenant McDonald said. “Out of all the false allegations they would supposedly make up, it would be the one he admitted to.”

The jury of officers and relatively high-ranking enlisted troops listened as matters the Navy probably did not want to air publicly were discussed in court.

At one point, the classified rules of engagement that guided SEALs on who they could kill in Iraq were delivered in a locked black bag by an armed guard. They were not read aloud in court, but one Marine attached to the SEAL platoon testified about part of what they said. Regarding one section of the crowded city of 660,000 along the Tigris River, the Marine testified that for SEAL snipers, “everything on the other side of the river was good to go, was cleared hot, were good targets.”

Other details brought out at trial cast unfavorable light on the elite SEALs. According to testimony, Chief Gallagher’s platoon built a rooftop bar at their compound and had empty beer cans rolling around in their trucks; a lieutenant made a video montage for the platoon, set to music, of enemy corpses from the deployment; a number of SEALs and Marines besides Chief Gallagher took photos with the dead ISIS fighter; and one SEAL mistook a car loaded with women and children in Mosul for ISIS fighters and flew a hand-launched explosive drone, known as a Switchblade, into the vehicle, killing them all.

Prosecutor mistakes (and MAJOR misconduct), scant physical evidence, and somebody else confessing to do it during the trial? That’s practically a gimme on reasonable doubt.

What this exposes about SEAL team unprofessionalism and alleged failure of leadership and accountability is disturbing and deserves further investigation.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
ShambhalaWar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States930 Posts
July 03 2019 16:26 GMT
#32565
On July 03 2019 22:45 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2019 22:29 Ryzel wrote:
On July 03 2019 22:23 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 03 2019 22:14 Ryzel wrote:
On July 03 2019 04:08 Ozymandias from “The Watchmen” wrote:
There is no such thing as a "right morality", if there was the world would be a lot simpler. I cannot demonstrate that my morality is the right one, nor am I attempting to. You shouldn't either. All we can see is whether my morality is consistent, and I think it is. What gives me the moral high ground over the power-hungry people in this world is the goal and the consequences of the violence I am supporting vs the goal and the consequences of the violence they are supporting.


Fixed.


You guys have a ton of references that I don't have.


It’s actually a pretty cool comic, haven’t seen the movie though. You might like it. Edited the post to a link to the reference though if you’re not interested in seeing/watching it.


Am I a comic book villain?


It's not really about you friend, the story of the graphic novel was (which I thought was quite good, but skip the movie, they completely fucked it up by changing the ending) a dialogue as the quote suggests on morality and does the end justify the means it takes to bring it about.

It's also quite interesting to see how people in the story are motivated toward their actions.

If you look at a particular outcome, "everyone" would say at objective glance is a really positive outcome for the world, then does it really matter how it comes about or does it justify a horrible path that might be traveled to get there?
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12262 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-03 16:34:05
July 03 2019 16:26 GMT
#32566
On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Fascism doesn't support hereditary class distinctions. Nazism only stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles.


Evola?

On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
You literally articulated the liberal argument against state violence.


I've never heard a liberal argument against state violence.
No will to live, no wish to die
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23294 Posts
July 03 2019 16:29 GMT
#32567
On July 04 2019 01:26 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Fascism doesn't support hereditary class distinctions. Nazism only stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles.


Evola?

I've never heard a liberal argument against state violence.


Last I checked they were pretty supportive of state violence sacrificing humans to protect property and profit?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21787 Posts
July 03 2019 16:30 GMT
#32568
On July 04 2019 01:24 Kyadytim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, the US justice system, at its finest:

If this is the way the law is supposed to work, what chance do poor people have?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/03/new-jersey-teen-judge-court-good-family

A judge suggested that a teenage boy accused of raping a drunk girl at a party should be treated leniently because he came from “a good family”, and cast doubt on whether such an attack amounted to rape at all.

Judge James Troiano in New Jersey made the remarks while ruling that the boy, who was identified only as “GMC”, should not face trial as an adult for allegedly raping a 16-year-old girl while recording the incident on his mobile phone.

“This young man comes from a good family who put him into an excellent school where he was doing extremely well,” Troiano said. “He is clearly a candidate for not just college but probably for a good college. His scores for college entry were very high.” Troiano, 69, also noted that the boy was an Eagle Scout.

Investigators said GMC sent a clip of the alleged rape to seven of his friends, and later sent a text adding: “When your first time having sex is rape.” Yet Troiano suggested that, in his view, the alleged incident was a sexual assault rather than a rape.


Hold up a second. I'm pretty sure teenage couples have gotten in trouble and charged with child pornography related crimes for sexting each other, but he recorded himself having sex with an under-18 girl and distributed the video and that gets nothing?
Read the article, its pretty much entirely different.

Prosecutors wanted to charge the kid as an adult because of the video and spreading it ect. A year ago a judge said "No, he is a good guy and should be tried as a minor. An appeal court has now ruled that the judge was out of line and so prosecutors will presumably again try to have the kid tried as an adult.
This case hasn't even gotten to the actual trial yet, its just an utter clickbait article spending maximum space on emotional impact and the absolute minimal to what is actually happening.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 03 2019 16:37 GMT
#32569
On July 04 2019 01:24 Kyadytim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, the US justice system, at its finest:

If this is the way the law is supposed to work, what chance do poor people have?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/03/new-jersey-teen-judge-court-good-family

A judge suggested that a teenage boy accused of raping a drunk girl at a party should be treated leniently because he came from “a good family”, and cast doubt on whether such an attack amounted to rape at all.

Judge James Troiano in New Jersey made the remarks while ruling that the boy, who was identified only as “GMC”, should not face trial as an adult for allegedly raping a 16-year-old girl while recording the incident on his mobile phone.

“This young man comes from a good family who put him into an excellent school where he was doing extremely well,” Troiano said. “He is clearly a candidate for not just college but probably for a good college. His scores for college entry were very high.” Troiano, 69, also noted that the boy was an Eagle Scout.

Investigators said GMC sent a clip of the alleged rape to seven of his friends, and later sent a text adding: “When your first time having sex is rape.” Yet Troiano suggested that, in his view, the alleged incident was a sexual assault rather than a rape.


Hold up a second. I'm pretty sure teenage couples have gotten in trouble and charged with child pornography related crimes for sexting each other, but he recorded himself having sex with an under-18 girl and distributed the video and that gets nothing?

1. This was for the “try as an adult” instead of a minor, for greater possible judgment. Not “gets nothing.”
2. The appeals court reversed (he WILL be tried as an adult)

That judge better never again be recalled out of retirement to fill vacancies.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-03 17:03:11
July 03 2019 16:48 GMT
#32570
On July 04 2019 01:26 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Fascism doesn't support hereditary class distinctions. Nazism only stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles.


Evola?

I've never heard a liberal argument against state violence.


Evola was not a Nazi. In fact, the Third Reich was initially lukewarm to his 1938 sojourn through Germany due to his belief in metaphysical class archetypes and the superiority of Roman culture. When he did gain prestige within the Sicherheitsdienst, it was thanks to the growing rift between the Volkisch contingent and those advocating pan-European mysticism. Mussolini feted him upon learning about Evola's palingenetic argument that Italy was the true spiritual successor to Rome. None of his success in those spheres was related to his caste system.

It's a hallmark of classical liberalism. Have you never read John Locke?

On July 04 2019 01:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
Last I checked they were pretty supportive of state violence sacrificing humans to protect property and profit?


You're thinking of neoliberalism.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12262 Posts
July 03 2019 16:53 GMT
#32571
On July 04 2019 01:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Fascism doesn't support hereditary class distinctions. Nazism only stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles.


Evola?

I've never heard a liberal argument against state violence.


Evola was not a Nazi. In fact, the Third Reich was initially lukewarm to his 1938 sojourn through Germany due to his belief in metaphysical class archetypes and the superiority of Roman culture. When he did gain prestige within the Sicherheitsdienst, it was thanks to the growing rift between the Volkisch contingent and the pan-European mysticism one.


Yes, that Evola was not a nazi and still stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles was more or less the point I was making.

I have not read Locke, no. What should I be reading specifically?
No will to live, no wish to die
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-03 17:06:54
July 03 2019 17:01 GMT
#32572
On July 04 2019 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:
Yes, that Evola was not a nazi and still stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles was more or less the point I was making.

I have not read Locke, no. What should I be reading specifically?


The Nazis didn't like him because he believed in class distinctions. Fascism in general posits the state as a mediator to resolve class conflict, not entrench it. Commentators frequently forget that fascism is anti-conservative by nature.

A Letter Concerning Toleration and Two Treatises of Government.

WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23294 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-03 17:31:00
July 03 2019 17:05 GMT
#32573
On July 04 2019 02:01 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:
Yes, that Evola was not a nazi and still stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles was more or less the point I was making.

I have not read Locke, no. What should I be reading specifically?


The Nazis didn't like him because he believed in class distinctions. Fascism in general posits the state as a mediator to resolve class conflict, not entrench it.

A Letter Concerning Toleration and Two Treatises of Government.



Yeah, neoliberalism works, they just typically self identify as "liberal" rather than "neoliberal"

While Nazis were fascists, it's not a matter of "you have to be like/be Nazis or your not fascist" right?

I'm reminded of this image on the absurdity of it all:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

*there may be subtext I'm unfamiliar with in this
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12262 Posts
July 03 2019 17:07 GMT
#32574
On July 04 2019 02:01 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:
Yes, that Evola was not a nazi and still stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles was more or less the point I was making.

I have not read Locke, no. What should I be reading specifically?


The Nazis didn't like him because he believed in class distinctions. Fascism in general posits the state as a mediator to resolve class conflict, not entrench it.

A Letter Concerning Toleration and Two Treatises of Government.



I understand that fascism posits the nation-state as a mediator to resolve class conflict. But the solution isn't "and therefore there is no class", it's "therefore we forget about class". Once we forget about class, it's entrenched. I don't understand the argument you're trying to make.
No will to live, no wish to die
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 03 2019 17:26 GMT
#32575
On July 04 2019 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Fascism doesn't support hereditary class distinctions. Nazism only stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles.


Evola?

I've never heard a liberal argument against state violence.


Evola was not a Nazi. In fact, the Third Reich was initially lukewarm to his 1938 sojourn through Germany due to his belief in metaphysical class archetypes and the superiority of Roman culture. When he did gain prestige within the Sicherheitsdienst, it was thanks to the growing rift between the Volkisch contingent and the pan-European mysticism one.


Yes, that Evola was not a nazi and still stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles was more or less the point I was making.

I have not read Locke, no. What should I be reading specifically?


Well this explains a helluva lot. I don't even know how one can pretend to be an honest proponent of socialist/communist ideologies without at least having a basic understanding of the liberal counterargument. Locke, in particular, is crucial in this regard given that he's the one who makes the argument that property rights are natural rights. Any system that posits moral justification for the confiscation and redistribution of property (as you advocate for) ultimately must contend with Locke.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12262 Posts
July 03 2019 17:30 GMT
#32576
On July 04 2019 02:26 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Fascism doesn't support hereditary class distinctions. Nazism only stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles.


Evola?

I've never heard a liberal argument against state violence.


Evola was not a Nazi. In fact, the Third Reich was initially lukewarm to his 1938 sojourn through Germany due to his belief in metaphysical class archetypes and the superiority of Roman culture. When he did gain prestige within the Sicherheitsdienst, it was thanks to the growing rift between the Volkisch contingent and the pan-European mysticism one.


Yes, that Evola was not a nazi and still stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles was more or less the point I was making.

I have not read Locke, no. What should I be reading specifically?


Well this explains a helluva lot. I don't even know how one can pretend to be an honest proponent of socialist/communist ideologies without at least having a basic understanding of the liberal counterargument. Locke, in particular, is crucial in this regard given that he's the one who makes the argument that property rights are natural rights. Any system that posits moral justification for the confiscation and redistribution of property (as you advocate for) ultimately must contend with Locke.


Just because I haven't read Locke doesn't mean I don't know liberalism makes the argument that property rights are natural rights rofl.
No will to live, no wish to die
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 03 2019 17:33 GMT
#32577
On July 04 2019 02:30 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 02:26 xDaunt wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Fascism doesn't support hereditary class distinctions. Nazism only stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles.


Evola?

I've never heard a liberal argument against state violence.


Evola was not a Nazi. In fact, the Third Reich was initially lukewarm to his 1938 sojourn through Germany due to his belief in metaphysical class archetypes and the superiority of Roman culture. When he did gain prestige within the Sicherheitsdienst, it was thanks to the growing rift between the Volkisch contingent and the pan-European mysticism one.


Yes, that Evola was not a nazi and still stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles was more or less the point I was making.

I have not read Locke, no. What should I be reading specifically?


Well this explains a helluva lot. I don't even know how one can pretend to be an honest proponent of socialist/communist ideologies without at least having a basic understanding of the liberal counterargument. Locke, in particular, is crucial in this regard given that he's the one who makes the argument that property rights are natural rights. Any system that posits moral justification for the confiscation and redistribution of property (as you advocate for) ultimately must contend with Locke.


Just because I haven't read Locke doesn't mean I don't know liberalism makes the argument that property rights are natural rights rofl.

The issue isn't that it does make the argument, the issue is how it makes the argument -- ie the argument itself.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 03 2019 17:35 GMT
#32578
that’s why xDaunt has read all three volumes of Capital
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12262 Posts
July 03 2019 17:37 GMT
#32579
On July 04 2019 02:33 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2019 02:30 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 02:26 xDaunt wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 04 2019 01:17 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Fascism doesn't support hereditary class distinctions. Nazism only stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles.


Evola?

I've never heard a liberal argument against state violence.


Evola was not a Nazi. In fact, the Third Reich was initially lukewarm to his 1938 sojourn through Germany due to his belief in metaphysical class archetypes and the superiority of Roman culture. When he did gain prestige within the Sicherheitsdienst, it was thanks to the growing rift between the Volkisch contingent and the pan-European mysticism one.


Yes, that Evola was not a nazi and still stridently emphasized racial purity and gender roles was more or less the point I was making.

I have not read Locke, no. What should I be reading specifically?


Well this explains a helluva lot. I don't even know how one can pretend to be an honest proponent of socialist/communist ideologies without at least having a basic understanding of the liberal counterargument. Locke, in particular, is crucial in this regard given that he's the one who makes the argument that property rights are natural rights. Any system that posits moral justification for the confiscation and redistribution of property (as you advocate for) ultimately must contend with Locke.


Just because I haven't read Locke doesn't mean I don't know liberalism makes the argument that property rights are natural rights rofl.

The issue isn't that it does make the argument, the issue is how it makes the argument -- ie the argument itself.


I know that too. And when I look at how Native Americans didn't fit that argument, and how much Locke stood to benefit from Europeans stealing those lands, I'm going to say the argument was made extremely conveniently.
No will to live, no wish to die
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
July 03 2019 17:38 GMT
#32580
On July 04 2019 02:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
Yeah, neoliberalism works, they just typically self identify as "liberal" rather than "neoliberal"


One needs to make the distinction. The former masquerades as the latter to disguise how very anti-liberal it can be e.g. how Hayek subtly rejected the polis' participation in politics to redefine freedom as participation in the market. Ironically enough, he owed this revelation to Carl Schmitt.

On July 04 2019 02:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
While Nazis were fascists, it's not a matter of "you have to be like/be Nazis or your not fascist" right?


Yes. "Fascist" was retroactively applied to Nazism. During their time, Nazis thought of fascism as a separate but similar ideology they were indebted to. Only the prospect of interference by outside governments soured them on alliances with fascist nations. They wouldn't have minded Evola if he wasn't hobnobbing with Himmler, hence siccing the SS on him.

On July 04 2019 02:07 Nebuchad wrote:
I understand that fascism posits the nation-state as a mediator to resolve class conflict. But the solution isn't "and therefore there is no class", it's "therefore we forget about class". Once we forget about class, it's entrenched. I don't understand the argument you're trying to make.


Acrofales claimed one of the core appeals of fascism is assurance that where you are born in the social hierarchy is where you belong. I'm pointed out this isn't true based on history and the internal logic of fascist ideology. The notion would make sense if fascism is conservative, but it's not. Fascism doesn't ignore the existence of class (how could it when it draws so heavily upon neo-Marxist literature?), restrict class mobility, or pretend class is immutable. Instead it rejects capitalistic and Marxist teleology regarding class.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
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