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On June 26 2019 02:52 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:46 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 02:19 IgnE wrote:
for the record I do think that border management is a more difficult problem that most people appalled by concentration camps in this thread seem to think.
i did not know that the camps were privately run and operated though. that would seem to be a serious problem. it is no wonder at all that privately run facilities looking for profit did not speculatively build extra capacity What they are completely missing are the consequences of having open borders. Secure borders are critical elements of national integrity. Specifically, what must be understood is that government and its institutions are fundamentally reflections of the values of the people. If we imported half a billion Muslims from the Middle East into the US, it wouldn't be long before our laws and institutions began reflecting Muslim values. The land that makes up the US doesn't magically convert people into Americans who share common American values. For this reason, one of the most important roles of the government is to responsibly manage the borders and immigration into the country so as to preserve national identity. Our current crop of politicians is largely derelict in this duty, which I frankly consider to be treasonous. No one but you is talking about open borders. That is a conservative bogeyman that no one is actually in favor of, but something that you act as if everyone who doesn't agree with you on how refugees or asylum are handled is in favor of.
Sanctuary cities
Free healthcare and other services for illegal immigrants
Refusal to support deportations
Refusal to secure the border
Refusal to amend asylum and immigration laws
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
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On June 26 2019 02:46 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:19 IgnE wrote:
for the record I do think that border management is a more difficult problem that most people appalled by concentration camps in this thread seem to think.
i did not know that the camps were privately run and operated though. that would seem to be a serious problem. it is no wonder at all that privately run facilities looking for profit did not speculatively build extra capacity What they are completely missing are the consequences of having open borders. Secure borders are critical elements of national integrity. Specifically, what must be understood is that government and its institutions are fundamentally reflections of the values of the people. If we imported half a billion Muslims from the Middle East into the US, it wouldn't be long before our laws and institutions began reflecting Muslim values. The land that makes up the US doesn't magically convert people into Americans who share common American values. For this reason, one of the most important roles of the government is to responsibly manage the borders and immigration into the country so as to preserve national identity. Our current crop of politicians is largely derelict in this duty, which I frankly consider to be treasonous.
No one's missing your false dichotomy. The options aren't concentration camps or half a billion muslims
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On June 26 2019 02:49 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:38 farvacola wrote:On June 26 2019 02:32 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2019 02:21 IgnE wrote:On June 26 2019 02:18 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2019 02:14 Simberto wrote:On June 26 2019 02:08 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2019 00:00 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On June 25 2019 21:56 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 25 2019 21:54 JimmiC wrote:
It is a scary world when the two most powerful countries in the world who claim to have opposing political view points both use camps to house undesirables. Now China's are trying to change peoples minds so perhaps that is worse, but you are really splitting hairs at that point. And I guess technically Murica is not doing it to their own people. But it still a very very shitty thing to do to humans. When a democracy is choosing to do shit that historically only authoritarians have been able to get away with it is a scary world. Here is hoping enough Americans are pissed off enough to vote the people saying this is an alright thing to do out of office.
Democracy has always done that. Its about choosing who is exempt from authoritarianism, that's all. This seems like a very hollow statement unless you are an anarchist who believes any structure other than the self is authoritarian. I also don't like the equivalence between China forcing a million people into re-orientation camps and the US housing immigrants in camps with inhuman conditions. One is the result of people doing their jobs well, and the other of people doing their jobs poorly. There's no necessity to group them just because both are camps. Who are the people doing their jobs well? What is the job that is being done well? I assume the chinese officials who use these re-orientation camps to combat unwanted minorities, and acquire lots of organs to sell at the same time? Just because the goals are horrific doesn't mean that they are not pursued competently. By the same logic the american camps are competent, store the most people the cheapest and keep them contained. yes, exactly. they are why didn’t obama de-privatize them? I'm guessing because a vast majority of Americans think private is better for everything. But I'm not a Obama expert or a Democrat. I also don't even know if the president has the power to make anything de-privatized. If he did he should have, along with all the prisons and healthcare. Nah, the privatization issue tends to align with typical partisan divides. My bad, I thought that many "center" Dem's thought that things like Healthcare should be universal but not publicly run. They would keep the private Hospitals, insurers and so on but give everyone a minimum level through public funding.
Well in healthcare specifically, you’re right that there are plenty of “center” dems who attempt to defend the current public/private insurance and provider scheme, but those same folks know that talk of privatizing Medicare or social security is a political deathwish. The long and short of it, to more accurately address your original point, is that there are definitely plenty of Americans who are anti-privatization.
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On June 26 2019 02:54 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:46 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 02:19 IgnE wrote:
for the record I do think that border management is a more difficult problem that most people appalled by concentration camps in this thread seem to think.
i did not know that the camps were privately run and operated though. that would seem to be a serious problem. it is no wonder at all that privately run facilities looking for profit did not speculatively build extra capacity What they are completely missing are the consequences of having open borders. Secure borders are critical elements of national integrity. Specifically, what must be understood is that government and its institutions are fundamentally reflections of the values of the people. If we imported half a billion Muslims from the Middle East into the US, it wouldn't be long before our laws and institutions began reflecting Muslim values. The land that makes up the US doesn't magically convert people into Americans who share common American values. For this reason, one of the most important roles of the government is to responsibly manage the borders and immigration into the country so as to preserve national identity. Our current crop of politicians is largely derelict in this duty, which I frankly consider to be treasonous. No one's missing your false dichotomy. The options aren't concentration camps or half a billion muslims
Here's a hint: there's no false dichotomy in my post.
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On June 26 2019 01:12 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 00:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 23:21 IyMoon wrote:On June 25 2019 23:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 18:53 Simberto wrote:
Just wanted to chime in to mention that i find KwarKs reasoning to be very reasonable, and don't quite understand why Introvert fights it so adamantly. The only point is that people are employed to predict the future, and that that is not impossible. Of course it gets harder to predict the further that future is out, but people still do it. And just because someone does not know all the details of how this specific prediction would work and which factors influence it doesn't mean that you can claim it is impossible.
I don't know all the details which go into maintaining a stable nuclear reaction and producing electricity from that, but i am pretty confident that the people whose job it is to design nuclear reactors do. I don't know all of the details which go into predicting the weather next week, but i still trust the weather report to be mostly accurate, because i assume that the professionals whose job it is to predict the weather know which data they need to do that.
And i would be very surprised if there was not someone or multiple someones in the DHS whose job it is to predict how many people want to enter the US. And if those people predicted the thing incorrectly, it is their failure. If they predicted it correctly, and people didn't react correctly to that prediction, that is those peoples failure. And if those people wanted to react correctly, but didn't get the money and resources necessary to do so, it is the failure of the people who didn't get them the money. At some point in this chain, someone failed at their job. Maybe at multiple points. And thus, it is very reasonable to call the thing an admin failure, because the apparatus designed to administrate this failed. Not everyone in it failed, but enough people failed at their job to make the whole thing fail. Kwark's point is not reasonable because it disingenuously obfuscates who really bears responsibility for this mess. Kwark is blaming the bandaid (DHS) rather than the surgeon (Congress) who actually needs to come in and properly close the wound. Until Congress fixes loopholes in our asylum laws and otherwise provides adequate funding for border and immigration control, this problem is not going to get fixed. Yet Congress clearly has no desire to do these things. This idea that Congress hasn't been adequately briefed on the border crisis is absurd. There have been ample hearings and other reports on the border crisis. Democrats (and many republicans), until very recently, have refused to even consider it being a crisis. Remember all of the opposition to Trump declaring a national emergency at the border? Yeah. Democrats are more interested in playing politics than actually fixing anything. So let me get this straight. Trump makes a problem, one he could fix with changing policy, and demands congress fixes it. Democrats go, I will give you 1.3 billion for more security at points of entry, judges, and resources for handling the flow of people, but no wall. Trump goes not good enough, we get nothing now. And somehow this is the democrats fault? I get the argument that congress needs to do something. It just is undercut by the fact that they did already and it was rejected There's pretty much nothing accurate in your post. No, Trump did not cause this problem. The root problems are migration from the third world to the US and the exploitation of a porous border and American immigration and asylum laws. All Trump has done is decide that these people need to be detained to the maximum extent possible rather than turned loose in the country. Given that 90-95% of asylum seekers simply disappear into the country rather than appear for their hearings, Trump's making the right call.And the Democrat's offer of $1.3 billion wouldn't fix anything. If Trump accepted that funding, nothing would be fixed. They know it. Trump knows it. Trump didn't really have a choice but to turn it down. So this is bullshit https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/facts-not-fear-heres-what-doj-stats-say-about-asylum-seekers-and-court-datesOn the low end (first article) you have 60% showing up, On the high end(second article) You have something like 90% of asylum seekers showing up So giving you the benefit of the doubt here and going with the low numbers. You're really really fucking off. Giving that, would you like to revisit your idea that Trumps making the right call?
I literally wrote the part about 75+% of people showing up to hearings when they are released with an ankle monitor and people are already now telling a lie by stating the opposite with no proof less than 24 hours later.
From said post: "Here's a TL;DR ninja edit: There. Is. No. Justification. For. What. They. Are. Doing. To. Families. I don't give two shits what you think or feel these people did wrong. The facts show the truth.They only crossed "illegally" because of what the Trump administration is doing at the entry points. The stats show more than 75% (some timeframes are as high as the 90s) show up to immigration hearings when they are given an ankle monitor and released. So if you're for locking up these kids and families, go fuck yourself and die. Thanks!
“They were given a lice shampoo, and the other children were given two combs and told to share those two combs ... which is something you never do with a lice outbreak.
“One of the combs was lost, and Border Patrol agents got so mad that they took away the children’s blankets and mats. They weren’t allowed to sleep on the beds, and they had to sleep on the floor ... as punishment.”
Simply inexcusable. Any person who support this is a monster. I guess that's half of my country. This is going to get very ugly before it's over. I can't believe that we as a people haven't taken to the streets to put an end to this entire administration. I think the thing I'm most disappointed in is our apathy. That is the only thing that has allowed 2.5 years of this shit. We're better than this.
INB4 Obama did it too. Not true. They're here illegally! Not true. Dems won't give more money. It's their fault! Not true. It's not a concentration camp because people aren't being killed! Not true. They're human traffickers/drug smugglers/terrorists/cartel members! Not true.
I'm so fucking fed up I don't even know what to do anymore. Do I just stop engaging with morons who keep regurgitating the lies they are told by right-wing media and Facebook? Do I engage with them and be hostile as fuck to either change their minds or at least get them to leave me alone? Do I politely try to redirect them to facts (LOLYEAHRITE)? I'm just happy my parents aren't open Trump supporters. I would hate to cut ties with them like so many others have had to do with their evil and stupid family members.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/migrant-detention-centres-texas-conditions-children-cbp-ice-latest-trump-border-a8971521.html"
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On June 26 2019 03:00 Ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 01:12 IyMoon wrote:On June 26 2019 00:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 23:21 IyMoon wrote:On June 25 2019 23:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 18:53 Simberto wrote:
Just wanted to chime in to mention that i find KwarKs reasoning to be very reasonable, and don't quite understand why Introvert fights it so adamantly. The only point is that people are employed to predict the future, and that that is not impossible. Of course it gets harder to predict the further that future is out, but people still do it. And just because someone does not know all the details of how this specific prediction would work and which factors influence it doesn't mean that you can claim it is impossible.
I don't know all the details which go into maintaining a stable nuclear reaction and producing electricity from that, but i am pretty confident that the people whose job it is to design nuclear reactors do. I don't know all of the details which go into predicting the weather next week, but i still trust the weather report to be mostly accurate, because i assume that the professionals whose job it is to predict the weather know which data they need to do that.
And i would be very surprised if there was not someone or multiple someones in the DHS whose job it is to predict how many people want to enter the US. And if those people predicted the thing incorrectly, it is their failure. If they predicted it correctly, and people didn't react correctly to that prediction, that is those peoples failure. And if those people wanted to react correctly, but didn't get the money and resources necessary to do so, it is the failure of the people who didn't get them the money. At some point in this chain, someone failed at their job. Maybe at multiple points. And thus, it is very reasonable to call the thing an admin failure, because the apparatus designed to administrate this failed. Not everyone in it failed, but enough people failed at their job to make the whole thing fail. Kwark's point is not reasonable because it disingenuously obfuscates who really bears responsibility for this mess. Kwark is blaming the bandaid (DHS) rather than the surgeon (Congress) who actually needs to come in and properly close the wound. Until Congress fixes loopholes in our asylum laws and otherwise provides adequate funding for border and immigration control, this problem is not going to get fixed. Yet Congress clearly has no desire to do these things. This idea that Congress hasn't been adequately briefed on the border crisis is absurd. There have been ample hearings and other reports on the border crisis. Democrats (and many republicans), until very recently, have refused to even consider it being a crisis. Remember all of the opposition to Trump declaring a national emergency at the border? Yeah. Democrats are more interested in playing politics than actually fixing anything. So let me get this straight. Trump makes a problem, one he could fix with changing policy, and demands congress fixes it. Democrats go, I will give you 1.3 billion for more security at points of entry, judges, and resources for handling the flow of people, but no wall. Trump goes not good enough, we get nothing now. And somehow this is the democrats fault? I get the argument that congress needs to do something. It just is undercut by the fact that they did already and it was rejected There's pretty much nothing accurate in your post. No, Trump did not cause this problem. The root problems are migration from the third world to the US and the exploitation of a porous border and American immigration and asylum laws. All Trump has done is decide that these people need to be detained to the maximum extent possible rather than turned loose in the country. Given that 90-95% of asylum seekers simply disappear into the country rather than appear for their hearings, Trump's making the right call.And the Democrat's offer of $1.3 billion wouldn't fix anything. If Trump accepted that funding, nothing would be fixed. They know it. Trump knows it. Trump didn't really have a choice but to turn it down. So this is bullshit https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/facts-not-fear-heres-what-doj-stats-say-about-asylum-seekers-and-court-datesOn the low end (first article) you have 60% showing up, On the high end(second article) You have something like 90% of asylum seekers showing up So giving you the benefit of the doubt here and going with the low numbers. You're really really fucking off. Giving that, would you like to revisit your idea that Trumps making the right call? I literally wrote the part about 75+% of people showing up to hearings when they are released with an ankle monitor and he is now telling a lie by stating the opposite with no proof less than 24 hours later. Xdaunt has been the gift that keeps on giving as far as making my points for me.
I like how you don't understand that I cited the latest data that came straight from DHS within the past couple of weeks. Whatever you cited is outdated at best.
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On June 26 2019 03:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 03:00 Ayaz2810 wrote:On June 26 2019 01:12 IyMoon wrote:On June 26 2019 00:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 23:21 IyMoon wrote:On June 25 2019 23:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 18:53 Simberto wrote:
Just wanted to chime in to mention that i find KwarKs reasoning to be very reasonable, and don't quite understand why Introvert fights it so adamantly. The only point is that people are employed to predict the future, and that that is not impossible. Of course it gets harder to predict the further that future is out, but people still do it. And just because someone does not know all the details of how this specific prediction would work and which factors influence it doesn't mean that you can claim it is impossible.
I don't know all the details which go into maintaining a stable nuclear reaction and producing electricity from that, but i am pretty confident that the people whose job it is to design nuclear reactors do. I don't know all of the details which go into predicting the weather next week, but i still trust the weather report to be mostly accurate, because i assume that the professionals whose job it is to predict the weather know which data they need to do that.
And i would be very surprised if there was not someone or multiple someones in the DHS whose job it is to predict how many people want to enter the US. And if those people predicted the thing incorrectly, it is their failure. If they predicted it correctly, and people didn't react correctly to that prediction, that is those peoples failure. And if those people wanted to react correctly, but didn't get the money and resources necessary to do so, it is the failure of the people who didn't get them the money. At some point in this chain, someone failed at their job. Maybe at multiple points. And thus, it is very reasonable to call the thing an admin failure, because the apparatus designed to administrate this failed. Not everyone in it failed, but enough people failed at their job to make the whole thing fail. Kwark's point is not reasonable because it disingenuously obfuscates who really bears responsibility for this mess. Kwark is blaming the bandaid (DHS) rather than the surgeon (Congress) who actually needs to come in and properly close the wound. Until Congress fixes loopholes in our asylum laws and otherwise provides adequate funding for border and immigration control, this problem is not going to get fixed. Yet Congress clearly has no desire to do these things. This idea that Congress hasn't been adequately briefed on the border crisis is absurd. There have been ample hearings and other reports on the border crisis. Democrats (and many republicans), until very recently, have refused to even consider it being a crisis. Remember all of the opposition to Trump declaring a national emergency at the border? Yeah. Democrats are more interested in playing politics than actually fixing anything. So let me get this straight. Trump makes a problem, one he could fix with changing policy, and demands congress fixes it. Democrats go, I will give you 1.3 billion for more security at points of entry, judges, and resources for handling the flow of people, but no wall. Trump goes not good enough, we get nothing now. And somehow this is the democrats fault? I get the argument that congress needs to do something. It just is undercut by the fact that they did already and it was rejected There's pretty much nothing accurate in your post. No, Trump did not cause this problem. The root problems are migration from the third world to the US and the exploitation of a porous border and American immigration and asylum laws. All Trump has done is decide that these people need to be detained to the maximum extent possible rather than turned loose in the country. Given that 90-95% of asylum seekers simply disappear into the country rather than appear for their hearings, Trump's making the right call.And the Democrat's offer of $1.3 billion wouldn't fix anything. If Trump accepted that funding, nothing would be fixed. They know it. Trump knows it. Trump didn't really have a choice but to turn it down. So this is bullshit https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/facts-not-fear-heres-what-doj-stats-say-about-asylum-seekers-and-court-datesOn the low end (first article) you have 60% showing up, On the high end(second article) You have something like 90% of asylum seekers showing up So giving you the benefit of the doubt here and going with the low numbers. You're really really fucking off. Giving that, would you like to revisit your idea that Trumps making the right call? I literally wrote the part about 75+% of people showing up to hearings when they are released with an ankle monitor and he is now telling a lie by stating the opposite with no proof less than 24 hours later. Xdaunt has been the gift that keeps on giving as far as making my points for me. I like how you don't understand that I cited the latest data that came straight from DHS within the past couple of weeks. Whatever you cited is outdated at best.
Data less than a year old. And as usual over the last several pages, I have had the pleasure of watching you lie about things, watch people post facts that show you're wrong, and then watch you continue to make the same claims as if no one said a word. I'm starting to appreciate this thread for other reasons now. Mainly because it shows me how Trump supporters deal with dissonance in their heads: they literally just ignore it. Say what you want about the monster that is Trump, but holy fuck can he and Fox manipulate people. It would be amazing if it weren't so scary,
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On June 26 2019 02:21 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:18 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2019 02:14 Simberto wrote:On June 26 2019 02:08 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2019 00:00 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On June 25 2019 21:56 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 25 2019 21:54 JimmiC wrote:
It is a scary world when the two most powerful countries in the world who claim to have opposing political view points both use camps to house undesirables. Now China's are trying to change peoples minds so perhaps that is worse, but you are really splitting hairs at that point. And I guess technically Murica is not doing it to their own people. But it still a very very shitty thing to do to humans. When a democracy is choosing to do shit that historically only authoritarians have been able to get away with it is a scary world. Here is hoping enough Americans are pissed off enough to vote the people saying this is an alright thing to do out of office.
Democracy has always done that. Its about choosing who is exempt from authoritarianism, that's all. This seems like a very hollow statement unless you are an anarchist who believes any structure other than the self is authoritarian. I also don't like the equivalence between China forcing a million people into re-orientation camps and the US housing immigrants in camps with inhuman conditions. One is the result of people doing their jobs well, and the other of people doing their jobs poorly. There's no necessity to group them just because both are camps. Who are the people doing their jobs well? What is the job that is being done well? I assume the chinese officials who use these re-orientation camps to combat unwanted minorities, and acquire lots of organs to sell at the same time? Just because the goals are horrific doesn't mean that they are not pursued competently. By the same logic the american camps are competent, store the most people the cheapest and keep them contained. yes, exactly. they are why didn’t obama de-privatize them?
For them to be competent, people would have to 1) Not be dying in them. 2) Not create malnutrition in the inhabitants. 3) Not have cases of children being abused.
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/26/698397631/sexual-assault-of-detained-migrant-children-reported-in-the-thousands-since-2015
Idk why Obama didn't de-privatize them, he should have.
And mentioning Obama's name changes nothing in the current situation.
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United States42004 Posts
On June 26 2019 02:54 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:52 Simberto wrote:On June 26 2019 02:46 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 02:19 IgnE wrote:
for the record I do think that border management is a more difficult problem that most people appalled by concentration camps in this thread seem to think.
i did not know that the camps were privately run and operated though. that would seem to be a serious problem. it is no wonder at all that privately run facilities looking for profit did not speculatively build extra capacity What they are completely missing are the consequences of having open borders. Secure borders are critical elements of national integrity. Specifically, what must be understood is that government and its institutions are fundamentally reflections of the values of the people. If we imported half a billion Muslims from the Middle East into the US, it wouldn't be long before our laws and institutions began reflecting Muslim values. The land that makes up the US doesn't magically convert people into Americans who share common American values. For this reason, one of the most important roles of the government is to responsibly manage the borders and immigration into the country so as to preserve national identity. Our current crop of politicians is largely derelict in this duty, which I frankly consider to be treasonous. No one but you is talking about open borders. That is a conservative bogeyman that no one is actually in favor of, but something that you act as if everyone who doesn't agree with you on how refugees or asylum are handled is in favor of. Sanctuary cities Free healthcare and other services for illegal immigrants Refusal to support deportations Refusal to secure the border Refusal to amend asylum and immigration laws If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
People oppose deportations because the government keeps trying to deport citizens and does shit like forcing infants to represent themselves at immigration courts. People oppose the wall because it’s the stupidest idea in the history of stupid ideas. People are constantly trying to amend immigration laws but we get bogged down in shit like fucking over the Dreamers who have no home but here.
It’s not that everyone who opposes your policies is part of some secret open borders conspiracy (meeting is pushed back to 8 this week by the way, also we’re doing a potluck) and insists on lying about it to you, it’s that your policies are dumb.
It’s weird to me that you’re constantly told by everyone that your policies are dumb and yet in your head it’s not a problem with the policies, it’s that everyone has formed a conspiracy and is lying to you about your totally smart policies because secretly they all know that the policies would work and block the secret agenda.
That’s some Cartman level narcissism you have going on there. You’d sooner believe that everyone who disagrees with you secretly knows your policies are good but wants open borders and is lying to you than that they disagree based on the merits of your policies.
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This is actually kind of related to the immigrant discussion we are having because we are being ruled by a minority. A minority that will go to lengths up to, and including, breaking the law to remain in power.
"I feel no constitutional obligation to stand around so they can pass their leftist progressive agenda," Knopp told The Oregonian from the Idaho lake. "[We're] not providing a quorum for Democrats to roll over us."
That's what the people of Oregon want, the Democrats hold a majority for a reason. So the Republican playbook is 1. gerrymander, 2. suppress the vote, and 3. if Democrats win in spite of 1 and 2, just... stop showing up for work.
Saving the planet isn't a "leftist" issue, it's a human issue. American Republicans are the only people on the planet, certainly the only political party, that thinks climate change is a hoax. So if anything, this is a "right-ist" problem of what they're choosing to believe. They are the issue, not everyone else who's in agreement on the reality of climate change.
https://www.newsweek.com/oregon-republicans-flee-idaho-fox-news-climate-change-bill-gloat-1445731
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On June 26 2019 03:08 Ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 03:02 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 03:00 Ayaz2810 wrote:On June 26 2019 01:12 IyMoon wrote:On June 26 2019 00:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 23:21 IyMoon wrote:On June 25 2019 23:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 18:53 Simberto wrote:
Just wanted to chime in to mention that i find KwarKs reasoning to be very reasonable, and don't quite understand why Introvert fights it so adamantly. The only point is that people are employed to predict the future, and that that is not impossible. Of course it gets harder to predict the further that future is out, but people still do it. And just because someone does not know all the details of how this specific prediction would work and which factors influence it doesn't mean that you can claim it is impossible.
I don't know all the details which go into maintaining a stable nuclear reaction and producing electricity from that, but i am pretty confident that the people whose job it is to design nuclear reactors do. I don't know all of the details which go into predicting the weather next week, but i still trust the weather report to be mostly accurate, because i assume that the professionals whose job it is to predict the weather know which data they need to do that.
And i would be very surprised if there was not someone or multiple someones in the DHS whose job it is to predict how many people want to enter the US. And if those people predicted the thing incorrectly, it is their failure. If they predicted it correctly, and people didn't react correctly to that prediction, that is those peoples failure. And if those people wanted to react correctly, but didn't get the money and resources necessary to do so, it is the failure of the people who didn't get them the money. At some point in this chain, someone failed at their job. Maybe at multiple points. And thus, it is very reasonable to call the thing an admin failure, because the apparatus designed to administrate this failed. Not everyone in it failed, but enough people failed at their job to make the whole thing fail. Kwark's point is not reasonable because it disingenuously obfuscates who really bears responsibility for this mess. Kwark is blaming the bandaid (DHS) rather than the surgeon (Congress) who actually needs to come in and properly close the wound. Until Congress fixes loopholes in our asylum laws and otherwise provides adequate funding for border and immigration control, this problem is not going to get fixed. Yet Congress clearly has no desire to do these things. This idea that Congress hasn't been adequately briefed on the border crisis is absurd. There have been ample hearings and other reports on the border crisis. Democrats (and many republicans), until very recently, have refused to even consider it being a crisis. Remember all of the opposition to Trump declaring a national emergency at the border? Yeah. Democrats are more interested in playing politics than actually fixing anything. So let me get this straight. Trump makes a problem, one he could fix with changing policy, and demands congress fixes it. Democrats go, I will give you 1.3 billion for more security at points of entry, judges, and resources for handling the flow of people, but no wall. Trump goes not good enough, we get nothing now. And somehow this is the democrats fault? I get the argument that congress needs to do something. It just is undercut by the fact that they did already and it was rejected There's pretty much nothing accurate in your post. No, Trump did not cause this problem. The root problems are migration from the third world to the US and the exploitation of a porous border and American immigration and asylum laws. All Trump has done is decide that these people need to be detained to the maximum extent possible rather than turned loose in the country. Given that 90-95% of asylum seekers simply disappear into the country rather than appear for their hearings, Trump's making the right call.And the Democrat's offer of $1.3 billion wouldn't fix anything. If Trump accepted that funding, nothing would be fixed. They know it. Trump knows it. Trump didn't really have a choice but to turn it down. So this is bullshit https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/facts-not-fear-heres-what-doj-stats-say-about-asylum-seekers-and-court-datesOn the low end (first article) you have 60% showing up, On the high end(second article) You have something like 90% of asylum seekers showing up So giving you the benefit of the doubt here and going with the low numbers. You're really really fucking off. Giving that, would you like to revisit youur idea that Trumps making the right call? I literally wrote the part about 75+% of people showing up to hearings when they are released with an ankle monitor and he is now telling a lie by stating the opposite with no proof less than 24 hours later. Xdaunt has been the gift that keeps on giving as far as making my points for me. I like how you don't understand that I cited the latest data that came straight from DHS within the past couple of weeks. Whatever you cited is outdated at best. Data less than a year old. And as usual over the last several pages, I have had the pleasure of watching you lie about things, watch people post facts that show you're wrong, and then watch you continue to make the same claims as if no one said a word. I'm starting to appreciate this thread for other reasons now. Mainly because it shows me how Trump supporters deal with dissonance in their heads: they literally just ignore it. Say what you want about the monster that is Trump, but holy fuck can he and Fox manipulate people. It would be amazing if it weren't so scary,
or could the difference be between releases with ankle monitors vs releases generally? for all the people who think theres a divide between people with (real) facts and people with alternative facts there doesn’t actually seem to be much attention to the facts here. maybe the head of DHS is just wrong, but I tend to think it is likely that people on “both sides” here are literally using alternative facts. let’s talk about the same thing here.
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On June 26 2019 03:08 Ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 03:02 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 03:00 Ayaz2810 wrote:On June 26 2019 01:12 IyMoon wrote:On June 26 2019 00:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 23:21 IyMoon wrote:On June 25 2019 23:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 18:53 Simberto wrote:
Just wanted to chime in to mention that i find KwarKs reasoning to be very reasonable, and don't quite understand why Introvert fights it so adamantly. The only point is that people are employed to predict the future, and that that is not impossible. Of course it gets harder to predict the further that future is out, but people still do it. And just because someone does not know all the details of how this specific prediction would work and which factors influence it doesn't mean that you can claim it is impossible.
I don't know all the details which go into maintaining a stable nuclear reaction and producing electricity from that, but i am pretty confident that the people whose job it is to design nuclear reactors do. I don't know all of the details which go into predicting the weather next week, but i still trust the weather report to be mostly accurate, because i assume that the professionals whose job it is to predict the weather know which data they need to do that.
And i would be very surprised if there was not someone or multiple someones in the DHS whose job it is to predict how many people want to enter the US. And if those people predicted the thing incorrectly, it is their failure. If they predicted it correctly, and people didn't react correctly to that prediction, that is those peoples failure. And if those people wanted to react correctly, but didn't get the money and resources necessary to do so, it is the failure of the people who didn't get them the money. At some point in this chain, someone failed at their job. Maybe at multiple points. And thus, it is very reasonable to call the thing an admin failure, because the apparatus designed to administrate this failed. Not everyone in it failed, but enough people failed at their job to make the whole thing fail. Kwark's point is not reasonable because it disingenuously obfuscates who really bears responsibility for this mess. Kwark is blaming the bandaid (DHS) rather than the surgeon (Congress) who actually needs to come in and properly close the wound. Until Congress fixes loopholes in our asylum laws and otherwise provides adequate funding for border and immigration control, this problem is not going to get fixed. Yet Congress clearly has no desire to do these things. This idea that Congress hasn't been adequately briefed on the border crisis is absurd. There have been ample hearings and other reports on the border crisis. Democrats (and many republicans), until very recently, have refused to even consider it being a crisis. Remember all of the opposition to Trump declaring a national emergency at the border? Yeah. Democrats are more interested in playing politics than actually fixing anything. So let me get this straight. Trump makes a problem, one he could fix with changing policy, and demands congress fixes it. Democrats go, I will give you 1.3 billion for more security at points of entry, judges, and resources for handling the flow of people, but no wall. Trump goes not good enough, we get nothing now. And somehow this is the democrats fault? I get the argument that congress needs to do something. It just is undercut by the fact that they did already and it was rejected There's pretty much nothing accurate in your post. No, Trump did not cause this problem. The root problems are migration from the third world to the US and the exploitation of a porous border and American immigration and asylum laws. All Trump has done is decide that these people need to be detained to the maximum extent possible rather than turned loose in the country. Given that 90-95% of asylum seekers simply disappear into the country rather than appear for their hearings, Trump's making the right call.And the Democrat's offer of $1.3 billion wouldn't fix anything. If Trump accepted that funding, nothing would be fixed. They know it. Trump knows it. Trump didn't really have a choice but to turn it down. So this is bullshit https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/facts-not-fear-heres-what-doj-stats-say-about-asylum-seekers-and-court-datesOn the low end (first article) you have 60% showing up, On the high end(second article) You have something like 90% of asylum seekers showing up So giving you the benefit of the doubt here and going with the low numbers. You're really really fucking off. Giving that, would you like to revisit your idea that Trumps making the right call? I literally wrote the part about 75+% of people showing up to hearings when they are released with an ankle monitor and he is now telling a lie by stating the opposite with no proof less than 24 hours later. Xdaunt has been the gift that keeps on giving as far as making my points for me. I like how you don't understand that I cited the latest data that came straight from DHS within the past couple of weeks. Whatever you cited is outdated at best. Data less than a year old. And as usual over the last several pages, I have had the pleasure of watching you lie about things, watch people post facts that show you're wrong, and then watch you continue to make the same claims as if no one said a word. I'm starting to appreciate this thread for other reasons now. Mainly because it shows me how Trump supporters deal with dissonance in their heads: they literally just ignore it. Say what you want about the monster that is Trump, but holy fuck can he and Fox manipulate people. It would be amazing if it weren't so scary,
The funniest part about these posts is that we just had like a page or two of leftists on this thread talking about how American conservatives are ignorant, don't recognize the inconsistencies in their beliefs, and otherwise ignore facts.
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On June 26 2019 03:08 Ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 03:02 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 03:00 Ayaz2810 wrote:On June 26 2019 01:12 IyMoon wrote:On June 26 2019 00:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 23:21 IyMoon wrote:On June 25 2019 23:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 18:53 Simberto wrote:
Just wanted to chime in to mention that i find KwarKs reasoning to be very reasonable, and don't quite understand why Introvert fights it so adamantly. The only point is that people are employed to predict the future, and that that is not impossible. Of course it gets harder to predict the further that future is out, but people still do it. And just because someone does not know all the details of how this specific prediction would work and which factors influence it doesn't mean that you can claim it is impossible.
I don't know all the details which go into maintaining a stable nuclear reaction and producing electricity from that, but i am pretty confident that the people whose job it is to design nuclear reactors do. I don't know all of the details which go into predicting the weather next week, but i still trust the weather report to be mostly accurate, because i assume that the professionals whose job it is to predict the weather know which data they need to do that.
And i would be very surprised if there was not someone or multiple someones in the DHS whose job it is to predict how many people want to enter the US. And if those people predicted the thing incorrectly, it is their failure. If they predicted it correctly, and people didn't react correctly to that prediction, that is those peoples failure. And if those people wanted to react correctly, but didn't get the money and resources necessary to do so, it is the failure of the people who didn't get them the money. At some point in this chain, someone failed at their job. Maybe at multiple points. And thus, it is very reasonable to call the thing an admin failure, because the apparatus designed to administrate this failed. Not everyone in it failed, but enough people failed at their job to make the whole thing fail. Kwark's point is not reasonable because it disingenuously obfuscates who really bears responsibility for this mess. Kwark is blaming the bandaid (DHS) rather than the surgeon (Congress) who actually needs to come in and properly close the wound. Until Congress fixes loopholes in our asylum laws and otherwise provides adequate funding for border and immigration control, this problem is not going to get fixed. Yet Congress clearly has no desire to do these things. This idea that Congress hasn't been adequately briefed on the border crisis is absurd. There have been ample hearings and other reports on the border crisis. Democrats (and many republicans), until very recently, have refused to even consider it being a crisis. Remember all of the opposition to Trump declaring a national emergency at the border? Yeah. Democrats are more interested in playing politics than actually fixing anything. So let me get this straight. Trump makes a problem, one he could fix with changing policy, and demands congress fixes it. Democrats go, I will give you 1.3 billion for more security at points of entry, judges, and resources for handling the flow of people, but no wall. Trump goes not good enough, we get nothing now. And somehow this is the democrats fault? I get the argument that congress needs to do something. It just is undercut by the fact that they did already and it was rejected There's pretty much nothing accurate in your post. No, Trump did not cause this problem. The root problems are migration from the third world to the US and the exploitation of a porous border and American immigration and asylum laws. All Trump has done is decide that these people need to be detained to the maximum extent possible rather than turned loose in the country. Given that 90-95% of asylum seekers simply disappear into the country rather than appear for their hearings, Trump's making the right call.And the Democrat's offer of $1.3 billion wouldn't fix anything. If Trump accepted that funding, nothing would be fixed. They know it. Trump knows it. Trump didn't really have a choice but to turn it down. So this is bullshit https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/facts-not-fear-heres-what-doj-stats-say-about-asylum-seekers-and-court-datesOn the low end (first article) you have 60% showing up, On the high end(second article) You have something like 90% of asylum seekers showing up So giving you the benefit of the doubt here and going with the low numbers. You're really really fucking off. Giving that, would you like to revisit your idea that Trumps making the right call? I literally wrote the part about 75+% of people showing up to hearings when they are released with an ankle monitor and he is now telling a lie by stating the opposite with no proof less than 24 hours later. Xdaunt has been the gift that keeps on giving as far as making my points for me. I like how you don't understand that I cited the latest data that came straight from DHS within the past couple of weeks. Whatever you cited is outdated at best. Data less than a year old. And as usual over the last several pages, I have had the pleasure of watching you lie about things, watch people post facts that show you're wrong, and then watch you continue to make the same claims as if no one said a word. I'm starting to appreciate this thread for other reasons now. Mainly because it shows me how Trump supporters deal with dissonance in their heads: they literally just ignore it. Say what you want about the monster that is Trump, but holy fuck can he and Fox manipulate people. It would be amazing if it weren't so scary,
For trump supporters here in this forum, there is an insane amount of cherry-picking points to defend, while completely ignoring very valid points made in opposition to their views.
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On June 26 2019 02:54 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:52 Simberto wrote:On June 26 2019 02:46 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 02:19 IgnE wrote:
for the record I do think that border management is a more difficult problem that most people appalled by concentration camps in this thread seem to think.
i did not know that the camps were privately run and operated though. that would seem to be a serious problem. it is no wonder at all that privately run facilities looking for profit did not speculatively build extra capacity What they are completely missing are the consequences of having open borders. Secure borders are critical elements of national integrity. Specifically, what must be understood is that government and its institutions are fundamentally reflections of the values of the people. If we imported half a billion Muslims from the Middle East into the US, it wouldn't be long before our laws and institutions began reflecting Muslim values. The land that makes up the US doesn't magically convert people into Americans who share common American values. For this reason, one of the most important roles of the government is to responsibly manage the borders and immigration into the country so as to preserve national identity. Our current crop of politicians is largely derelict in this duty, which I frankly consider to be treasonous. No one but you is talking about open borders. That is a conservative bogeyman that no one is actually in favor of, but something that you act as if everyone who doesn't agree with you on how refugees or asylum are handled is in favor of. Sanctuary cities Free healthcare and other services for illegal immigrants Refusal to support deportations
Refusal to secure the border
Refusal to amend asylum and immigration lawsIf it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
No one actually believes those things, nor has anyone "refused" to do them. And the first two are misleading at best. What's weird here is that everything you just put into that post can be revealed as bullshit by a simple Google search (like so many of your posts), yet so many Trump supporters seem to be deathly afraid of words and facts. No wonder they won't read the Mueller report. It must be like Kryptonite to them.
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I think people should be allowed to make political blog threads again, to keep down the volume of completely unproductive fighting and contrarianism here.
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On June 26 2019 03:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 03:00 Ayaz2810 wrote:On June 26 2019 01:12 IyMoon wrote:On June 26 2019 00:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 23:21 IyMoon wrote:On June 25 2019 23:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 18:53 Simberto wrote:
Just wanted to chime in to mention that i find KwarKs reasoning to be very reasonable, and don't quite understand why Introvert fights it so adamantly. The only point is that people are employed to predict the future, and that that is not impossible. Of course it gets harder to predict the further that future is out, but people still do it. And just because someone does not know all the details of how this specific prediction would work and which factors influence it doesn't mean that you can claim it is impossible.
I don't know all the details which go into maintaining a stable nuclear reaction and producing electricity from that, but i am pretty confident that the people whose job it is to design nuclear reactors do. I don't know all of the details which go into predicting the weather next week, but i still trust the weather report to be mostly accurate, because i assume that the professionals whose job it is to predict the weather know which data they need to do that.
And i would be very surprised if there was not someone or multiple someones in the DHS whose job it is to predict how many people want to enter the US. And if those people predicted the thing incorrectly, it is their failure. If they predicted it correctly, and people didn't react correctly to that prediction, that is those peoples failure. And if those people wanted to react correctly, but didn't get the money and resources necessary to do so, it is the failure of the people who didn't get them the money. At some point in this chain, someone failed at their job. Maybe at multiple points. And thus, it is very reasonable to call the thing an admin failure, because the apparatus designed to administrate this failed. Not everyone in it failed, but enough people failed at their job to make the whole thing fail. Kwark's point is not reasonable because it disingenuously obfuscates who really bears responsibility for this mess. Kwark is blaming the bandaid (DHS) rather than the surgeon (Congress) who actually needs to come in and properly close the wound. Until Congress fixes loopholes in our asylum laws and otherwise provides adequate funding for border and immigration control, this problem is not going to get fixed. Yet Congress clearly has no desire to do these things. This idea that Congress hasn't been adequately briefed on the border crisis is absurd. There have been ample hearings and other reports on the border crisis. Democrats (and many republicans), until very recently, have refused to even consider it being a crisis. Remember all of the opposition to Trump declaring a national emergency at the border? Yeah. Democrats are more interested in playing politics than actually fixing anything. So let me get this straight. Trump makes a problem, one he could fix with changing policy, and demands congress fixes it. Democrats go, I will give you 1.3 billion for more security at points of entry, judges, and resources for handling the flow of people, but no wall. Trump goes not good enough, we get nothing now. And somehow this is the democrats fault? I get the argument that congress needs to do something. It just is undercut by the fact that they did already and it was rejected There's pretty much nothing accurate in your post. No, Trump did not cause this problem. The root problems are migration from the third world to the US and the exploitation of a porous border and American immigration and asylum laws. All Trump has done is decide that these people need to be detained to the maximum extent possible rather than turned loose in the country. Given that 90-95% of asylum seekers simply disappear into the country rather than appear for their hearings, Trump's making the right call.And the Democrat's offer of $1.3 billion wouldn't fix anything. If Trump accepted that funding, nothing would be fixed. They know it. Trump knows it. Trump didn't really have a choice but to turn it down. So this is bullshit https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/facts-not-fear-heres-what-doj-stats-say-about-asylum-seekers-and-court-datesOn the low end (first article) you have 60% showing up, On the high end(second article) You have something like 90% of asylum seekers showing up So giving you the benefit of the doubt here and going with the low numbers. You're really really fucking off. Giving that, would you like to revisit your idea that Trumps making the right call? I literally wrote the part about 75+% of people showing up to hearings when they are released with an ankle monitor and he is now telling a lie by stating the opposite with no proof less than 24 hours later. Xdaunt has been the gift that keeps on giving as far as making my points for me. I like how you don't understand that I cited the latest data that came straight from DHS within the past couple of weeks. Whatever you cited is outdated at best.
Nah, what happened is the guy threw in a quote that rightwing media can use to make propaganda headlines to scare people, without actually lying to congress. That 90% is probably from some undefined pilot probably made to produce a high number for a quote. The man actually says: "It depends on demographic, the court, but we see too many cases where people are not showing up,”, thats a 10-30% dont show up quote, definately not a 90% quote.
Rightwing media picked up the pilot number and you quoted them without turning on a few brain cells.
Here is someones count, not sure how accurate they count... https://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/562/
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On June 26 2019 02:57 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:54 Dan HH wrote:On June 26 2019 02:46 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 02:19 IgnE wrote:
for the record I do think that border management is a more difficult problem that most people appalled by concentration camps in this thread seem to think.
i did not know that the camps were privately run and operated though. that would seem to be a serious problem. it is no wonder at all that privately run facilities looking for profit did not speculatively build extra capacity What they are completely missing are the consequences of having open borders. Secure borders are critical elements of national integrity. Specifically, what must be understood is that government and its institutions are fundamentally reflections of the values of the people. If we imported half a billion Muslims from the Middle East into the US, it wouldn't be long before our laws and institutions began reflecting Muslim values. The land that makes up the US doesn't magically convert people into Americans who share common American values. For this reason, one of the most important roles of the government is to responsibly manage the borders and immigration into the country so as to preserve national identity. Our current crop of politicians is largely derelict in this duty, which I frankly consider to be treasonous. No one's missing your false dichotomy. The options aren't concentration camps or half a billion muslims Here's a hint: there's no false dichotomy in my post.
Let me translate your first sentence for you if you think you're bullshitting your way out of this
'What [people appalled by concentration camps in this thread] are completely missing are the consequences of having open borders'
That was the only 'they' in the post you responded to. The choice presented there, between open borders (which according to you is worse) and concentration camps is an entirely false one.
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On June 26 2019 03:12 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 02:21 IgnE wrote:On June 26 2019 02:18 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2019 02:14 Simberto wrote:On June 26 2019 02:08 JimmiC wrote:On June 26 2019 00:00 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On June 25 2019 21:56 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 25 2019 21:54 JimmiC wrote:
It is a scary world when the two most powerful countries in the world who claim to have opposing political view points both use camps to house undesirables. Now China's are trying to change peoples minds so perhaps that is worse, but you are really splitting hairs at that point. And I guess technically Murica is not doing it to their own people. But it still a very very shitty thing to do to humans. When a democracy is choosing to do shit that historically only authoritarians have been able to get away with it is a scary world. Here is hoping enough Americans are pissed off enough to vote the people saying this is an alright thing to do out of office.
Democracy has always done that. Its about choosing who is exempt from authoritarianism, that's all. This seems like a very hollow statement unless you are an anarchist who believes any structure other than the self is authoritarian. I also don't like the equivalence between China forcing a million people into re-orientation camps and the US housing immigrants in camps with inhuman conditions. One is the result of people doing their jobs well, and the other of people doing their jobs poorly. There's no necessity to group them just because both are camps. Who are the people doing their jobs well? What is the job that is being done well? I assume the chinese officials who use these re-orientation camps to combat unwanted minorities, and acquire lots of organs to sell at the same time? Just because the goals are horrific doesn't mean that they are not pursued competently. By the same logic the american camps are competent, store the most people the cheapest and keep them contained. yes, exactly. they are why didn’t obama de-privatize them? For them to be competent, people would have to 1) Not be dying in them. 2) Not create malnutrition in the inhabitants. 3) Not have cases of children being abused. https://www.npr.org/2019/02/26/698397631/sexual-assault-of-detained-migrant-children-reported-in-the-thousands-since-2015Idk why Obama didn't de-privatize them, he should have. And mentioning Obama's name changes nothing in the current situation.
the point is that structural features, in this case private holding facilities run for profit, dictate the logic of border management. we’ve had multiple pages in this thread about how uniquely incompetent the Trump administration has been, but it appears to me that failure was built into it at a deep level going back across multiple changes in administrations/congress, and that any person appalled by the situation should be arguing for a complete overhaul of the system rather than simply hoping to return to pre-Trump status quo. i’m not saying you are or are not for this. i’m actually surprised that a lot of the things that are happening have been done this way for a long time
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On June 26 2019 03:13 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Saving the planet isn't a "leftist" issue, it's a human issue. American Republicans are the only people on the planet, certainly the only political party, that thinks climate change is a hoax. So if anything, this is a "right-ist" problem of what they're choosing to believe. They are the issue, not everyone else who's in agreement on the reality of climate change.
They are slowly exporting that crazy. We didn't have any parties that insane, but luckily, now we have the AfD in Germany. So we have climate denying crazy right-wing people too now.
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On June 26 2019 03:13 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2019 03:08 Ayaz2810 wrote:On June 26 2019 03:02 xDaunt wrote:On June 26 2019 03:00 Ayaz2810 wrote:On June 26 2019 01:12 IyMoon wrote:On June 26 2019 00:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 23:21 IyMoon wrote:On June 25 2019 23:18 xDaunt wrote:On June 25 2019 18:53 Simberto wrote:
Just wanted to chime in to mention that i find KwarKs reasoning to be very reasonable, and don't quite understand why Introvert fights it so adamantly. The only point is that people are employed to predict the future, and that that is not impossible. Of course it gets harder to predict the further that future is out, but people still do it. And just because someone does not know all the details of how this specific prediction would work and which factors influence it doesn't mean that you can claim it is impossible.
I don't know all the details which go into maintaining a stable nuclear reaction and producing electricity from that, but i am pretty confident that the people whose job it is to design nuclear reactors do. I don't know all of the details which go into predicting the weather next week, but i still trust the weather report to be mostly accurate, because i assume that the professionals whose job it is to predict the weather know which data they need to do that.
And i would be very surprised if there was not someone or multiple someones in the DHS whose job it is to predict how many people want to enter the US. And if those people predicted the thing incorrectly, it is their failure. If they predicted it correctly, and people didn't react correctly to that prediction, that is those peoples failure. And if those people wanted to react correctly, but didn't get the money and resources necessary to do so, it is the failure of the people who didn't get them the money. At some point in this chain, someone failed at their job. Maybe at multiple points. And thus, it is very reasonable to call the thing an admin failure, because the apparatus designed to administrate this failed. Not everyone in it failed, but enough people failed at their job to make the whole thing fail. Kwark's point is not reasonable because it disingenuously obfuscates who really bears responsibility for this mess. Kwark is blaming the bandaid (DHS) rather than the surgeon (Congress) who actually needs to come in and properly close the wound. Until Congress fixes loopholes in our asylum laws and otherwise provides adequate funding for border and immigration control, this problem is not going to get fixed. Yet Congress clearly has no desire to do these things. This idea that Congress hasn't been adequately briefed on the border crisis is absurd. There have been ample hearings and other reports on the border crisis. Democrats (and many republicans), until very recently, have refused to even consider it being a crisis. Remember all of the opposition to Trump declaring a national emergency at the border? Yeah. Democrats are more interested in playing politics than actually fixing anything. So let me get this straight. Trump makes a problem, one he could fix with changing policy, and demands congress fixes it. Democrats go, I will give you 1.3 billion for more security at points of entry, judges, and resources for handling the flow of people, but no wall. Trump goes not good enough, we get nothing now. And somehow this is the democrats fault? I get the argument that congress needs to do something. It just is undercut by the fact that they did already and it was rejected There's pretty much nothing accurate in your post. No, Trump did not cause this problem. The root problems are migration from the third world to the US and the exploitation of a porous border and American immigration and asylum laws. All Trump has done is decide that these people need to be detained to the maximum extent possible rather than turned loose in the country. Given that 90-95% of asylum seekers simply disappear into the country rather than appear for their hearings, Trump's making the right call.And the Democrat's offer of $1.3 billion wouldn't fix anything. If Trump accepted that funding, nothing would be fixed. They know it. Trump knows it. Trump didn't really have a choice but to turn it down. So this is bullshit https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/26/wolf-blitzer/majority-undocumented-immigrants-show-court-data-s/https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/facts-not-fear-heres-what-doj-stats-say-about-asylum-seekers-and-court-datesOn the low end (first article) you have 60% showing up, On the high end(second article) You have something like 90% of asylum seekers showing up So giving you the benefit of the doubt here and going with the low numbers. You're really really fucking off. Giving that, would you like to revisit youur idea that Trumps making the right call? I literally wrote the part about 75+% of people showing up to hearings when they are released with an ankle monitor and he is now telling a lie by stating the opposite with no proof less than 24 hours later. Xdaunt has been the gift that keeps on giving as far as making my points for me. I like how you don't understand that I cited the latest data that came straight from DHS within the past couple of weeks. Whatever you cited is outdated at best. Data less than a year old. And as usual over the last several pages, I have had the pleasure of watching you lie about things, watch people post facts that show you're wrong, and then watch you continue to make the same claims as if no one said a word. I'm starting to appreciate this thread for other reasons now. Mainly because it shows me how Trump supporters deal with dissonance in their heads: they literally just ignore it. Say what you want about the monster that is Trump, but holy fuck can he and Fox manipulate people. It would be amazing if it weren't so scary, or could the difference be between releases with ankle monitors vs releases generally? for all the people who think theres a divide between people with (real) facts and people with alternative facts there doesn’t actually seem to be much attention to the facts here. maybe the head of DHS is just wrong, but I tend to think it is likely that people on “both sides” here are literally using alternative facts. let’s talk about the same thing here.
Maybe both are sides are wrong to some extent... but you cannot call it and equivalent. Realize you are defending the group that birthed alex jones, and also fox news, who's stories don't drift far from alex jones's stories.
Calling an equivalence between right and left in the purveying of fake reality is simply false. Pizzagate, being a primary example, and calling sandy hook a fake, another prime example.
This is a reality you have to acknowledge as someone on the right, *that you've chosen a leader to represent you who pathologically lies, and that is also who you've chosen to turn to for your view of reality.
You don't have to take my word for this, just spend some time on youtube listening to trump speak and you can see many examples of him lying openly.
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