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On May 17 2019 04:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 01:38 JimmiC wrote:
It is really only a ban on abortions for the poor as anyone with money will simply travel where they are done. The poor will have options, they just won't be doctors. How can intelligent people think these are good ideas. We have historical evidence it does not even stop abortions it just makes them way more dangerous. Not the case in Georgia. "Even women who seek lawful abortions out of state may not escape punishment. If a Georgia resident plans to travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion, she may be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment. An individual who helps a woman plan her trip to get an out-of-state abortion, or transports her to the clinic, may also be charged with conspiracy. These individuals, after all, are “conspiring” to end of the life of a “person” with “full legal recognition” under Georgia law." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.html
that slate article has been the origin of a falsehood and that's because Mark Joseph Stern is a hack.
in none of these states are the women who get abortions or have miscarriages in violation of the statute.
Women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized
Unlike other states — which have passed limited abortion bills such as bans on the types of abortion procedure and gestational age of the fetus — Alabama’s proposed bill is an all-out ban on abortion.
“This bill is very simple,” said Collins. “It’s not about birth control or the morning after the pill. It’s about not allowing abortion once the woman is pregnant. The entire bill was designed to overturn [Roe v. Wade] and allow states to decide what is best for them.”
However, the bill explicitly states that women are exempt from criminal and civil liability, a tenet that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly reinforced.
“In my bill, women would not under any circumstances face jail time if they got an abortion,” Collins said. Instead, the law targets doctors, who can be prosecuted for performing an abortion, a felony punishable by up to 99 years imprisonment.
Carol Sanger, professor at Columbia Law School, said such penalties on doctors were “just another way to make women frightened” and create “more disincentives for physicians and residents to take up this practice.”
The Georgia law is more complex.
Like Alabama, it explicitly states that doctors who perform abortions will be prosecuted. It is clear about those penalties. The bill is more vague about the prosecution (or non-prosecution) of women.
On Tuesday, Slate published an article with a not-entirely-accurate headline: “Georgia just criminalized abortion. Women who terminate their pregnancies would receive life in prison.”
It suggested that under the Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies would be prosecuted and sentenced to either life in prison or death.
That is incorrect.
“The news headlines and social media headlines that speculate about the bills’ unintended consequences are – at the very least – not productive. At most, they’re harmful,” Planned Parenthood’s Staci Fox told The Post on Friday.
HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, she argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.
“You don’t want a woman to be forced to prove how she lost her baby,” said Sanger.
Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt, but legal experts point to other areas of Georgia’s penal code which have specific defenses for women, including those who miscarry.
https://washingtonpost.com/health/2019/05/11/could-miscarriages-land-women-jail-lets-clarify-these-georgia-alabama-abortion-bills
it's been amusing, horrifying, and entirely unsurprising how incorrect information like that spread throughout lefty social media and into this thread, and not a single person bothered to check it.
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On May 17 2019 04:41 Sent. wrote:
That's like saying calling one's self "pro-choice" relates to determinism.
It does relate to determinism, self-determinism in fact.
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On May 17 2019 04:42 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:On May 17 2019 01:38 JimmiC wrote:
It is really only a ban on abortions for the poor as anyone with money will simply travel where they are done. The poor will have options, they just won't be doctors. How can intelligent people think these are good ideas. We have historical evidence it does not even stop abortions it just makes them way more dangerous. Not the case in Georgia. "Even women who seek lawful abortions out of state may not escape punishment. If a Georgia resident plans to travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion, she may be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment. An individual who helps a woman plan her trip to get an out-of-state abortion, or transports her to the clinic, may also be charged with conspiracy. These individuals, after all, are “conspiring” to end of the life of a “person” with “full legal recognition” under Georgia law." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.html that slate article has been the origin of a falsehood and that's because Mark Joseph Stern is a hack. in none of these states are the women who get abortions or have miscarriages in violation of the statute. Show nested quote +
Women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized
Unlike other states — which have passed limited abortion bills such as bans on the types of abortion procedure and gestational age of the fetus — Alabama’s proposed bill is an all-out ban on abortion.
“This bill is very simple,” said Collins. “It’s not about birth control or the morning after the pill. It’s about not allowing abortion once the woman is pregnant. The entire bill was designed to overturn [Roe v. Wade] and allow states to decide what is best for them.”
However, the bill explicitly states that women are exempt from criminal and civil liability, a tenet that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly reinforced.
“In my bill, women would not under any circumstances face jail time if they got an abortion,” Collins said. Instead, the law targets doctors, who can be prosecuted for performing an abortion, a felony punishable by up to 99 years imprisonment.
Carol Sanger, professor at Columbia Law School, said such penalties on doctors were “just another way to make women frightened” and create “more disincentives for physicians and residents to take up this practice.”
The Georgia law is more complex.
Like Alabama, it explicitly states that doctors who perform abortions will be prosecuted. It is clear about those penalties. The bill is more vague about the prosecution (or non-prosecution) of women.
On Tuesday, Slate published an article with a not-entirely-accurate headline: “Georgia just criminalized abortion. Women who terminate their pregnancies would receive life in prison.”
It suggested that under the Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies would be prosecuted and sentenced to either life in prison or death.
That is incorrect.
“The news headlines and social media headlines that speculate about the bills’ unintended consequences are – at the very least – not productive. At most, they’re harmful,” Planned Parenthood’s Staci Fox told The Post on Friday.
HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, she argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.
“You don’t want a woman to be forced to prove how she lost her baby,” said Sanger.
Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt, but legal experts point to other areas of Georgia’s penal code which have specific defenses for women, including those who miscarry.
https://washingtonpost.com/health/2019/05/11/could-miscarriages-land-women-jail-lets-clarify-these-georgia-alabama-abortion-billsit's been amusing, horrifying, and entirely unsurprising how incorrect information like that spread throughout lefty social media and into this thread, and not a single person bothered to check it.
Probably because it doesn't make much of a difference, throwing doctors in jail for 99 years is still pretty fucking awful and will only lead to women looking for other means to obtain an abortion, none of which are as safe. But seriously, let's harp on how terrible it is that "the left" is misconstruing the facts here. That's totally what matters.
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On May 17 2019 04:42 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:On May 17 2019 01:38 JimmiC wrote:
It is really only a ban on abortions for the poor as anyone with money will simply travel where they are done. The poor will have options, they just won't be doctors. How can intelligent people think these are good ideas. We have historical evidence it does not even stop abortions it just makes them way more dangerous. Not the case in Georgia. "Even women who seek lawful abortions out of state may not escape punishment. If a Georgia resident plans to travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion, she may be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment. An individual who helps a woman plan her trip to get an out-of-state abortion, or transports her to the clinic, may also be charged with conspiracy. These individuals, after all, are “conspiring” to end of the life of a “person” with “full legal recognition” under Georgia law." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.html that slate article has been the origin of a falsehood and that's because Mark Joseph Stern is a hack. in none of these states are the women who get abortions or have miscarriages in violation of the statute. Show nested quote +
Women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized
Unlike other states — which have passed limited abortion bills such as bans on the types of abortion procedure and gestational age of the fetus — Alabama’s proposed bill is an all-out ban on abortion.
“This bill is very simple,” said Collins. “It’s not about birth control or the morning after the pill. It’s about not allowing abortion once the woman is pregnant. The entire bill was designed to overturn [Roe v. Wade] and allow states to decide what is best for them.”
However, the bill explicitly states that women are exempt from criminal and civil liability, a tenet that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly reinforced.
“In my bill, women would not under any circumstances face jail time if they got an abortion,” Collins said. Instead, the law targets doctors, who can be prosecuted for performing an abortion, a felony punishable by up to 99 years imprisonment.
Carol Sanger, professor at Columbia Law School, said such penalties on doctors were “just another way to make women frightened” and create “more disincentives for physicians and residents to take up this practice.”
The Georgia law is more complex.
Like Alabama, it explicitly states that doctors who perform abortions will be prosecuted. It is clear about those penalties. The bill is more vague about the prosecution (or non-prosecution) of women.
On Tuesday, Slate published an article with a not-entirely-accurate headline: “Georgia just criminalized abortion. Women who terminate their pregnancies would receive life in prison.”
It suggested that under the Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies would be prosecuted and sentenced to either life in prison or death.
That is incorrect.
“The news headlines and social media headlines that speculate about the bills’ unintended consequences are – at the very least – not productive. At most, they’re harmful,” Planned Parenthood’s Staci Fox told The Post on Friday.
HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, she argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.
“You don’t want a woman to be forced to prove how she lost her baby,” said Sanger.
Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt, but legal experts point to other areas of Georgia’s penal code which have specific defenses for women, including those who miscarry.
https://washingtonpost.com/health/2019/05/11/could-miscarriages-land-women-jail-lets-clarify-these-georgia-alabama-abortion-billsit's been amusing, horrifying, and entirely unsurprising how incorrect information like that spread throughout lefty social media and into this thread, and not a single person bothered to check it.
Right. So they are allowed to abort the baby in the safety of their home... Just joking, so they are able to do it while risking their life, like in the middle-ages, in horrific conditions, as they have to hide themselves in shame and/or hide their unskilled/untrained helper, as abortion has always and will always happen. Protecting women ? Well why should we.
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On May 17 2019 04:43 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:41 Sent. wrote:
That's like saying calling one's self "pro-choice" relates to determinism. It does relate to determinism, self-determinism in fact.
Determinism is the philosophical belief that all events are determined completely by previously existing causes. Determinism is often contrasted with free will.
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On May 17 2019 04:48 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:42 Introvert wrote:On May 17 2019 04:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:On May 17 2019 01:38 JimmiC wrote:
It is really only a ban on abortions for the poor as anyone with money will simply travel where they are done. The poor will have options, they just won't be doctors. How can intelligent people think these are good ideas. We have historical evidence it does not even stop abortions it just makes them way more dangerous. Not the case in Georgia. "Even women who seek lawful abortions out of state may not escape punishment. If a Georgia resident plans to travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion, she may be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment. An individual who helps a woman plan her trip to get an out-of-state abortion, or transports her to the clinic, may also be charged with conspiracy. These individuals, after all, are “conspiring” to end of the life of a “person” with “full legal recognition” under Georgia law." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.html that slate article has been the origin of a falsehood and that's because Mark Joseph Stern is a hack. in none of these states are the women who get abortions or have miscarriages in violation of the statute.
Women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized
Unlike other states — which have passed limited abortion bills such as bans on the types of abortion procedure and gestational age of the fetus — Alabama’s proposed bill is an all-out ban on abortion.
“This bill is very simple,” said Collins. “It’s not about birth control or the morning after the pill. It’s about not allowing abortion once the woman is pregnant. The entire bill was designed to overturn [Roe v. Wade] and allow states to decide what is best for them.”
However, the bill explicitly states that women are exempt from criminal and civil liability, a tenet that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly reinforced.
“In my bill, women would not under any circumstances face jail time if they got an abortion,” Collins said. Instead, the law targets doctors, who can be prosecuted for performing an abortion, a felony punishable by up to 99 years imprisonment.
Carol Sanger, professor at Columbia Law School, said such penalties on doctors were “just another way to make women frightened” and create “more disincentives for physicians and residents to take up this practice.”
The Georgia law is more complex.
Like Alabama, it explicitly states that doctors who perform abortions will be prosecuted. It is clear about those penalties. The bill is more vague about the prosecution (or non-prosecution) of women.
On Tuesday, Slate published an article with a not-entirely-accurate headline: “Georgia just criminalized abortion. Women who terminate their pregnancies would receive life in prison.”
It suggested that under the Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies would be prosecuted and sentenced to either life in prison or death.
That is incorrect.
“The news headlines and social media headlines that speculate about the bills’ unintended consequences are – at the very least – not productive. At most, they’re harmful,” Planned Parenthood’s Staci Fox told The Post on Friday.
HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, she argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.
“You don’t want a woman to be forced to prove how she lost her baby,” said Sanger.
Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt, but legal experts point to other areas of Georgia’s penal code which have specific defenses for women, including those who miscarry.
https://washingtonpost.com/health/2019/05/11/could-miscarriages-land-women-jail-lets-clarify-these-georgia-alabama-abortion-billsit's been amusing, horrifying, and entirely unsurprising how incorrect information like that spread throughout lefty social media and into this thread, and not a single person bothered to check it. Right. So they are allowed to abort the baby in the safety of their home... Just joking, so they are able to do it while risking their life, like in the middle-ages, in horrific conditions, as they have to hide themselves in shame and/or hide their unskilled/untrained helper, as abortion has always and will always happen. Protecting women ? Well why should we.
Why should I care that some woman got herself pregnant? She should just keep her legs closed and know her place. Also let's ignore that a woman's sex drive is at least as strong as a man's, and that men not only go around treating women like sex objects, but consider sex to be something that women give and men receive, and also let's ignore the fact that it takes two people to get someone pregnant, and that there's a man who should be just as responsible as the woman in nearly any given scenario.
Those are facts. We don't need those.
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On May 17 2019 04:47 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:42 Introvert wrote:On May 17 2019 04:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:On May 17 2019 01:38 JimmiC wrote:
It is really only a ban on abortions for the poor as anyone with money will simply travel where they are done. The poor will have options, they just won't be doctors. How can intelligent people think these are good ideas. We have historical evidence it does not even stop abortions it just makes them way more dangerous. Not the case in Georgia. "Even women who seek lawful abortions out of state may not escape punishment. If a Georgia resident plans to travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion, she may be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment. An individual who helps a woman plan her trip to get an out-of-state abortion, or transports her to the clinic, may also be charged with conspiracy. These individuals, after all, are “conspiring” to end of the life of a “person” with “full legal recognition” under Georgia law." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.html that slate article has been the origin of a falsehood and that's because Mark Joseph Stern is a hack. in none of these states are the women who get abortions or have miscarriages in violation of the statute.
Women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized
Unlike other states — which have passed limited abortion bills such as bans on the types of abortion procedure and gestational age of the fetus — Alabama’s proposed bill is an all-out ban on abortion.
“This bill is very simple,” said Collins. “It’s not about birth control or the morning after the pill. It’s about not allowing abortion once the woman is pregnant. The entire bill was designed to overturn [Roe v. Wade] and allow states to decide what is best for them.”
However, the bill explicitly states that women are exempt from criminal and civil liability, a tenet that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly reinforced.
“In my bill, women would not under any circumstances face jail time if they got an abortion,” Collins said. Instead, the law targets doctors, who can be prosecuted for performing an abortion, a felony punishable by up to 99 years imprisonment.
Carol Sanger, professor at Columbia Law School, said such penalties on doctors were “just another way to make women frightened” and create “more disincentives for physicians and residents to take up this practice.”
The Georgia law is more complex.
Like Alabama, it explicitly states that doctors who perform abortions will be prosecuted. It is clear about those penalties. The bill is more vague about the prosecution (or non-prosecution) of women.
On Tuesday, Slate published an article with a not-entirely-accurate headline: “Georgia just criminalized abortion. Women who terminate their pregnancies would receive life in prison.”
It suggested that under the Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies would be prosecuted and sentenced to either life in prison or death.
That is incorrect.
“The news headlines and social media headlines that speculate about the bills’ unintended consequences are – at the very least – not productive. At most, they’re harmful,” Planned Parenthood’s Staci Fox told The Post on Friday.
HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, she argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.
“You don’t want a woman to be forced to prove how she lost her baby,” said Sanger.
Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt, but legal experts point to other areas of Georgia’s penal code which have specific defenses for women, including those who miscarry.
https://washingtonpost.com/health/2019/05/11/could-miscarriages-land-women-jail-lets-clarify-these-georgia-alabama-abortion-billsit's been amusing, horrifying, and entirely unsurprising how incorrect information like that spread throughout lefty social media and into this thread, and not a single person bothered to check it. Probably because it doesn't make much of a difference, throwing doctors in jail for 99 years is still pretty fucking awful and will only lead to women looking for other means to obtain an abortion, none of which are as safe. But seriously, let's harp on how terrible it is that "the left" is misconstruing the facts here. That's totally what matters.
I know it makes a difference because if it didnt then it wouldn't be the example trotted out every single time these bills are mentioned.
and if you sont believe me then ask the PP rep in Georgia who is very kindly but firmly telling people to stop making bad guesses.
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On May 17 2019 04:51 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:43 farvacola wrote:On May 17 2019 04:41 Sent. wrote:
That's like saying calling one's self "pro-choice" relates to determinism. It does relate to determinism, self-determinism in fact. Determinism is the philosophical belief that all events are determined completely by previously existing causes. Determinism is often contrasted with free will.
Do you have any idea what folks who claim to be “pro-life” say with regards to the substance of their opposition to abortion?
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On May 17 2019 04:55 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:47 NewSunshine wrote:On May 17 2019 04:42 Introvert wrote:On May 17 2019 04:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:On May 17 2019 01:38 JimmiC wrote:
It is really only a ban on abortions for the poor as anyone with money will simply travel where they are done. The poor will have options, they just won't be doctors. How can intelligent people think these are good ideas. We have historical evidence it does not even stop abortions it just makes them way more dangerous. Not the case in Georgia. "Even women who seek lawful abortions out of state may not escape punishment. If a Georgia resident plans to travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion, she may be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment. An individual who helps a woman plan her trip to get an out-of-state abortion, or transports her to the clinic, may also be charged with conspiracy. These individuals, after all, are “conspiring” to end of the life of a “person” with “full legal recognition” under Georgia law." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.html that slate article has been the origin of a falsehood and that's because Mark Joseph Stern is a hack. in none of these states are the women who get abortions or have miscarriages in violation of the statute.
Women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized
Unlike other states — which have passed limited abortion bills such as bans on the types of abortion procedure and gestational age of the fetus — Alabama’s proposed bill is an all-out ban on abortion.
“This bill is very simple,” said Collins. “It’s not about birth control or the morning after the pill. It’s about not allowing abortion once the woman is pregnant. The entire bill was designed to overturn [Roe v. Wade] and allow states to decide what is best for them.”
However, the bill explicitly states that women are exempt from criminal and civil liability, a tenet that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly reinforced.
“In my bill, women would not under any circumstances face jail time if they got an abortion,” Collins said. Instead, the law targets doctors, who can be prosecuted for performing an abortion, a felony punishable by up to 99 years imprisonment.
Carol Sanger, professor at Columbia Law School, said such penalties on doctors were “just another way to make women frightened” and create “more disincentives for physicians and residents to take up this practice.”
The Georgia law is more complex.
Like Alabama, it explicitly states that doctors who perform abortions will be prosecuted. It is clear about those penalties. The bill is more vague about the prosecution (or non-prosecution) of women.
On Tuesday, Slate published an article with a not-entirely-accurate headline: “Georgia just criminalized abortion. Women who terminate their pregnancies would receive life in prison.”
It suggested that under the Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies would be prosecuted and sentenced to either life in prison or death.
That is incorrect.
“The news headlines and social media headlines that speculate about the bills’ unintended consequences are – at the very least – not productive. At most, they’re harmful,” Planned Parenthood’s Staci Fox told The Post on Friday.
HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, she argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.
“You don’t want a woman to be forced to prove how she lost her baby,” said Sanger.
Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt, but legal experts point to other areas of Georgia’s penal code which have specific defenses for women, including those who miscarry.
https://washingtonpost.com/health/2019/05/11/could-miscarriages-land-women-jail-lets-clarify-these-georgia-alabama-abortion-billsit's been amusing, horrifying, and entirely unsurprising how incorrect information like that spread throughout lefty social media and into this thread, and not a single person bothered to check it. Probably because it doesn't make much of a difference, throwing doctors in jail for 99 years is still pretty fucking awful and will only lead to women looking for other means to obtain an abortion, none of which are as safe. But seriously, let's harp on how terrible it is that "the left" is misconstruing the facts here. That's totally what matters. I know it makes a difference because if it didnt then it wouldn't be the example trotted out every single time these bills are mentioned. and if you sont believe me then ask the head of PP in Georgia who is very kindly but firmly telling people to stop making bad guesses.
I don't know, in my experience the thing that keeps being brought up in response to these bills are how they are a complete and utter disservice to civil rights for women in this country, and are only proven to worsen healthcare for women and increase maternal mortality rates while old white men pat themselves on the back. This was new for me. If it's wrong people will stop talking about it, me included, but that doesn't make all these bills being introduced any less atrocious.
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Does anyone else see a contradiction in forcing women to have unwanted children and then complaining that broken families lead to all societal problems?
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The shit “pro-life” people say is full of contradictions, that being a big one among many.
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It's all contradicting until you realize it's about taking away women's rights and subsuming them to men. We have all kinds of other laws saying you can't force people to donate blood/organs/etc. to save someone's life, but when it comes to something women exclusively face, they don't seem to have that problem of violating bodily autonomy anymore. Now it's ok for the government to tell people what to do with their bodies, because they as men know they never have to worry about it.
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On May 17 2019 04:42 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:On May 17 2019 01:38 JimmiC wrote:
It is really only a ban on abortions for the poor as anyone with money will simply travel where they are done. The poor will have options, they just won't be doctors. How can intelligent people think these are good ideas. We have historical evidence it does not even stop abortions it just makes them way more dangerous. Not the case in Georgia. "Even women who seek lawful abortions out of state may not escape punishment. If a Georgia resident plans to travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion, she may be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment. An individual who helps a woman plan her trip to get an out-of-state abortion, or transports her to the clinic, may also be charged with conspiracy. These individuals, after all, are “conspiring” to end of the life of a “person” with “full legal recognition” under Georgia law." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.html that slate article has been the origin of a falsehood and that's because Mark Joseph Stern is a hack. in none of these states are the women who get abortions or have miscarriages in violation of the statute. Show nested quote +
Women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized
Unlike other states — which have passed limited abortion bills such as bans on the types of abortion procedure and gestational age of the fetus — Alabama’s proposed bill is an all-out ban on abortion.
“This bill is very simple,” said Collins. “It’s not about birth control or the morning after the pill. It’s about not allowing abortion once the woman is pregnant. The entire bill was designed to overturn [Roe v. Wade] and allow states to decide what is best for them.”
However, the bill explicitly states that women are exempt from criminal and civil liability, a tenet that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly reinforced.
“In my bill, women would not under any circumstances face jail time if they got an abortion,” Collins said. Instead, the law targets doctors, who can be prosecuted for performing an abortion, a felony punishable by up to 99 years imprisonment.
Carol Sanger, professor at Columbia Law School, said such penalties on doctors were “just another way to make women frightened” and create “more disincentives for physicians and residents to take up this practice.”
The Georgia law is more complex.
Like Alabama, it explicitly states that doctors who perform abortions will be prosecuted. It is clear about those penalties. The bill is more vague about the prosecution (or non-prosecution) of women.
On Tuesday, Slate published an article with a not-entirely-accurate headline: “Georgia just criminalized abortion. Women who terminate their pregnancies would receive life in prison.”
It suggested that under the Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies would be prosecuted and sentenced to either life in prison or death.
That is incorrect.
“The news headlines and social media headlines that speculate about the bills’ unintended consequences are – at the very least – not productive. At most, they’re harmful,” Planned Parenthood’s Staci Fox told The Post on Friday.
HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, she argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.
“You don’t want a woman to be forced to prove how she lost her baby,” said Sanger.
Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt, but legal experts point to other areas of Georgia’s penal code which have specific defenses for women, including those who miscarry.
https://washingtonpost.com/health/2019/05/11/could-miscarriages-land-women-jail-lets-clarify-these-georgia-alabama-abortion-billsit's been amusing, horrifying, and entirely unsurprising how incorrect information like that spread throughout lefty social media and into this thread, and not a single person bothered to check it.
Would is certainly too strong a word for Slate to have used. The fact they COULD, however, is still a problem. If you turn every 6 weekish old fetus into a full person, then you open the door for murder charges to be considered for abortions.. The interaction of laws, if this is ruled constitutional, will result in a lot of unexpected (and mostly bad I imagine) consequences.
Thankfully GAs legal argument is by far the least likely to succeed, even at SCOTUS, so I doubt this becomes law.
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On May 17 2019 04:42 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 04:00 ShambhalaWar wrote:On May 17 2019 01:38 JimmiC wrote:
It is really only a ban on abortions for the poor as anyone with money will simply travel where they are done. The poor will have options, they just won't be doctors. How can intelligent people think these are good ideas. We have historical evidence it does not even stop abortions it just makes them way more dangerous. Not the case in Georgia. "Even women who seek lawful abortions out of state may not escape punishment. If a Georgia resident plans to travel elsewhere to obtain an abortion, she may be charged with conspiracy to commit murder, punishable by 10 years’ imprisonment. An individual who helps a woman plan her trip to get an out-of-state abortion, or transports her to the clinic, may also be charged with conspiracy. These individuals, after all, are “conspiring” to end of the life of a “person” with “full legal recognition” under Georgia law." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/hb-481-georgia-law-criminalizes-abortion-subjects-women-to-life-in-prison.html that slate article has been the origin of a falsehood and that's because Mark Joseph Stern is a hack. in none of these states are the women who get abortions or have miscarriages in violation of the statute. Show nested quote +
Women in Alabama and Georgia will not be criminalized
Unlike other states — which have passed limited abortion bills such as bans on the types of abortion procedure and gestational age of the fetus — Alabama’s proposed bill is an all-out ban on abortion.
“This bill is very simple,” said Collins. “It’s not about birth control or the morning after the pill. It’s about not allowing abortion once the woman is pregnant. The entire bill was designed to overturn [Roe v. Wade] and allow states to decide what is best for them.”
However, the bill explicitly states that women are exempt from criminal and civil liability, a tenet that Alabama lawmakers have repeatedly reinforced.
“In my bill, women would not under any circumstances face jail time if they got an abortion,” Collins said. Instead, the law targets doctors, who can be prosecuted for performing an abortion, a felony punishable by up to 99 years imprisonment.
Carol Sanger, professor at Columbia Law School, said such penalties on doctors were “just another way to make women frightened” and create “more disincentives for physicians and residents to take up this practice.”
The Georgia law is more complex.
Like Alabama, it explicitly states that doctors who perform abortions will be prosecuted. It is clear about those penalties. The bill is more vague about the prosecution (or non-prosecution) of women.
On Tuesday, Slate published an article with a not-entirely-accurate headline: “Georgia just criminalized abortion. Women who terminate their pregnancies would receive life in prison.”
It suggested that under the Georgia law, women who terminate their pregnancies would be prosecuted and sentenced to either life in prison or death.
That is incorrect.
“The news headlines and social media headlines that speculate about the bills’ unintended consequences are – at the very least – not productive. At most, they’re harmful,” Planned Parenthood’s Staci Fox told The Post on Friday.
HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, she argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.
“You don’t want a woman to be forced to prove how she lost her baby,” said Sanger.
Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt, but legal experts point to other areas of Georgia’s penal code which have specific defenses for women, including those who miscarry.
https://washingtonpost.com/health/2019/05/11/could-miscarriages-land-women-jail-lets-clarify-these-georgia-alabama-abortion-billsit's been amusing, horrifying, and entirely unsurprising how incorrect information like that spread throughout lefty social media and into this thread, and not a single person bothered to check it.
Make no mistake, false information has been spread at the very least equally through left and right wing groups of people, and I would make a strong argument much more so on the right. That being said, I was checking what I heard against a source (just not multiple sources in this case), and if I am wrong I'm happy to be wrong here.
I actually do pay attention, a lot of attention to what is going on in the news and world. If I didn't catch this now, soon the truth would likely have been in my field of vision, and I would have been able to correct my own misunderstanding.
Part of the reason for confusion is that people won't fully know what this law means until people try to enforce it. Laws that are written vaguely are open to interpretation, so you cannot say exactly how this law will be used.
In a different example, I personally think it's horrifying someone like Alex Jones exists, or that he could suggestion sandy hook was faked, so I think you response is pretty melodramatic in comparison.
People have every right to be alarmed or hypersensitive over this law, its aim it to undue settled law in America. It's like saying, "lets take some real time to rethink segregation." I don't trust this law at all. According to the article, it wasn't even meant to be a "law" just to trigger the supreme court to reconsider roe v wade. So the point of not including an exception for rape or incest was because they weren't topics mentioned in roe. The people writing the law are doing so not in consideration of the population, but for pushing their own political agenda... The very purpose of its creation has nothing to do with what is best for people and their wellbeing.
And... I'm not sure the post or anyone really knows how these laws will be used or who exactly will get prosecuted as a result of them.
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Just please have a bigger understanding of the religious and moral/philosophical distinction besides the tired trope of men telling women what to do with their bodies. The Alabama bill was introduced by a woman and signed by a female governor. The percentages of men and women in various pro-life positions are not crazy lopsided. You don’t want to be the man telling women that they’re doing this to take away women’s rights and give them to men. I say this even when you think that’s one aspect of the end state of affairs. It increases rancor like you aren’t really a woman based on disagreement with your political positions.
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On May 17 2019 04:32 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 03:32 semantics wrote:On May 17 2019 03:04 Sent. wrote:
It's not inconsistent. Aborted kids / clumps of cells didn't do anything to earn their deaths. You earn death but you don't earn life? So life is something you can take away but it's not granted by us? We don't make life we can only take it away based on our judgements? I find this inconsistent. If a supernatural power grants life and we have no right to interfere with that creation why do we get that right later? We gain this ability once a person shows a will that we don't think is correct? So is a will equivalent to a life as that's what we're measuring to terminate it, how can we be so sure that's life if a will cannot be displayed. If a will is not a life then why are we using a person's will as a judgement to end life. You don't earn your life, you are your life. You can't earn it becuase you don't exist before it starts. Once it begins, you gain the rights (like the right to live your life) and duties of a human being. If you break the rules, you earn a punishment that limits or removes your rights. At this point you can debate whether the collective should have the right to terminate the life of a unit that broke the rules, but I don't think your opinion on that matter should determine your opinion on whether units that are yet to be born should have the right to live.
Well the question would be and has been how are you counting a clump of cells as human life.
Where i find the idea that life begins at conception illogical at least if one also supports the death penalty is that they're attributing life as something outside of human control but ending life is with in our control. When it comes to it it's the idea of ownership which is what laws are considering when they find if a party has been wronged, at the end of the day it's the state that decides what is life and to grant death. So removing the state from the granting of life, from the argument in general and codifying it, that is illogical. Because they can't define life well at all because it's not routed in the real world but in religion and superstition. As if one tried to justify human life beginning at conception it becomes very difficult to define human life from other things we don't view as human.
At Least in the context of claiming life itself is sacred without caring about quality of said life. Once you start to consider quality of life it become very hard for anyone except a bleeding heart to be consistent in stance.
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On May 17 2019 05:53 Danglars wrote:
Just please have a bigger understanding of the religious and moral/philosophical distinction besides the tired trope of men telling women what to do with their bodies. The Alabama bill was introduced by a woman and signed by a female governor. The percentages of men and women in various pro-life positions are not crazy lopsided. You don’t want to be the man telling women that they’re doing this to take away women’s rights and give them to men. I say this even when you think that’s one aspect of the end state of affairs. It increases rancor like you aren’t really a woman based on disagreement with your political positions.
On this point, here is a great breakdown of the demographics behind this issue from Gallup.
They found an even split of 48-48 for each side. This is def a hot button issue, and a much smarter area to focus on for the GOP relative to immigration, which is a losing issue at this point.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx
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On May 17 2019 05:57 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2019 05:53 Danglars wrote:
Just please have a bigger understanding of the religious and moral/philosophical distinction besides the tired trope of men telling women what to do with their bodies. The Alabama bill was introduced by a woman and signed by a female governor. The percentages of men and women in various pro-life positions are not crazy lopsided. You don’t want to be the man telling women that they’re doing this to take away women’s rights and give them to men. I say this even when you think that’s one aspect of the end state of affairs. It increases rancor like you aren’t really a woman based on disagreement with your political positions. On this point, here is a great breakdown of the demographics behind this issue from Gallup. They found an even split of 48-48 for each side. This is def a hot button issue, and a much smarter area to focus on for the GOP relative to immigration, which is a losing issue at this point. https://news.gallup.com/poll/244709/pro-choice-pro-life-2018-demographic-tables.aspx
Absolutely banning of abortion very much a minority in the US though, which is what the goals are of laws like this. Overturn Roe v. Wade so they can ban all abortion.
50% legal only under certain circumstance; 29% Legal under any circumstances; 18% illegal in all circumstances
https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx
Abortion is like gun control, an extremely motivated and active minority is driving the appearance of the topic. The rest is marketing and appealing to feelings without pragmatic considerations.
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EPT
