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On April 16 2019 12:13 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 12:08 Gahlo wrote:
Seems like more of the "Will generally be a cut, but after 10 years will be a hike for the nonwealthy" which is what the media was actually saying. The article I posted even mentions what I said, multiple times. It was sold as a hike. Show nested quote +To a large degree, the gap between perception and reality on the tax cuts appears to flow from a sustained — and misleading — effort by liberal opponents of the law to brand it as a broad middle-class tax increase.
That effort began in the fall of 2017, when Republicans prepared to introduce legislation that models by the independent Tax Policy Center predicted could raise taxes on nearly a third of middle-class taxpayers. It continued through Mr. Trump’s signing of the law, even though the group’s models showed that the revised bill would raise taxes on relatively few in the middle class in the 2018 tax year.
After the law went into effect, Democrats played down those estimates and instead highlighted projections that most Americans’ taxes are set to increase in 2026, after the individual tax cuts in the law are scheduled to expire. Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 12:15 Plansix wrote:
Introvert is just processing the reality that the tax cuts are wildly unpopular and will only get more unpopular over time. Which is what happens when to overhaul the entire tax systems with the care and patience of a 13 year jacked up on adderall and coffee. Now it’s the media’s fault that the terrible tax bill is unpopular and was never really part of Trumps platform. I never said a word about its popularity. I'm talking about outright falsehoods, which, since the media spread them, are in fact the media's fault.
You never seem bothered when the President lies about Obama not being an American citizen. Or when Fox News ran coverage about “where is the birth certificate” for years. Or concerned when Trump posted heavily edited videos of a congress women speaking, intercutting her speech with shots of the 9/11 attack.
So forgive me if I find your selective outrage about “falsehoods” tone less than convincing.
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United States42777 Posts
On April 16 2019 12:34 JimmiC wrote:
A flat tax break would be interesting option, like it would be "fair" everyone pays 500 bucks left or whatever. But would impact the poor and lower middle much more than the rich.
This is called an exemption. Every taxpayer got $4,100 * their marginal rate * household members less to pay.
The tax change removed that, effectively a flat tax hike. Although there were other mitigating changes obviously.
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On April 16 2019 12:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 12:07 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 12:02 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2019 11:40 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 11:25 Dan HH wrote:On April 16 2019 11:19 Introvert wrote:
pointing to his website is kinda shallow. Those don't matter, espeically for Trump. The overlap between what he says and his people say is often quite large. More than once he said his own taxes should be higher. One of his most consistent things was no changes to medicare or social security. Trump didn't go to rallies and spend 20 minutes riffing on tax cuts every time. Moreover, let's say you don't believe me about tax cuts. it'd be great to see evidence he ran as a fiscal conservative which is most directly related to what I posted above.
As for what "left" things he wanted... at various times he spoke well of other countries' healthcare systems and promised that "everyone" would have "great" insurance, and endorsed more government involvement in this area. Is this gas lighting? It's not a matter of belief. We've discussed his tax cut plans in this very thread during the campaign. It was one of his main electoral promises. He did go to rallies to talk about tax cuts. I didn't say he didn't have a plan. I said he didn't run on it. Nah, I recognize this pattern. We're all going to pretend now that a plan on his website or a "plan" he put out and talked about for like 3 days is "campaigning on tax cuts." He also said (more than once) that the rich should pay more. You know, I was there too, as an outspoken critic of him for this and for many other things. This is retconning, a fairly popular thing with all stuff Trump over the past few years. On April 16 2019 11:34 On_Slaught wrote:On April 16 2019 10:56 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On April 16 2019 10:49 Introvert wrote:In some ways, Trump was a very centrist candidate. Fiscally liberal, culturally conservative is, by self-identification, the single largest group on that famous square diagram. **** And since today is tax day, here's an update in the tax law. Surprise! The media was lying. 80% got a cut, 6% got a raise in taxes, the rest were *about* the same. In particular I like the title of the piece, there's a lot going on there.
Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut
If you’re an American taxpayer, you probably got a tax cut last year. And there’s a good chance you don’t believe it.
Ever since President Trump signed the Republican-sponsored tax bill in December 2017, independent analyses have consistently found that a large majority of Americans would owe less because of the law. Preliminary data based on tax filings has shown the same.
Yet as the first tax filing season under the new law wraps up on Monday, taxpayers are skeptical. A survey conducted in early April for The New York Times by the online research platform SurveyMonkey found that just 40 percent of Americans believed they had received a tax cut under the law. Just 20 percent were certain they had done so. That’s consistent with previous polls finding that most Americans felt they hadn’t gotten a tax cut, and that a large minority thought their taxes had risen — though not even one in 10 households actually got a tax increase.
To a large degree, the gap between perception and reality on the tax cuts appears to flow from a sustained — and misleading — effort by liberal opponents of the law to brand it as a broad middle-class tax increase.
That effort began in the fall of 2017, when Republicans prepared to introduce legislation that models by the independent Tax Policy Center predicted could raise taxes on nearly a third of middle-class taxpayers. It continued through Mr. Trump’s signing of the law, even though the group’s models showed that the revised bill would raise taxes on relatively few in the middle class in the 2018 tax year.
After the law went into effect, Democrats played down those estimates and instead highlighted projections that most Americans’ taxes are set to increase in 2026, after the individual tax cuts in the law are scheduled to expire.
The messaging stuck. In December 2017, polling for The Times by SurveyMonkey showed that nearly two-thirds of Americans — and three-quarters of Democrats — did not believe they would get a tax cut from the new law. In this month’s poll, three-quarters of Democrats again said they did not think they got a tax cut from the law, and the overall share of Americans who said they had benefited rose only slightly from the 2017 expectations.
In convincing people that they would not benefit, “the Democrats did a very good job,” said Howard Gleckman, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. “They were able to put that into the public perception, and the reality has been unable to break that perception.”
Tax Cuts by the Numbers
Experts are divided on whether the tax law was a good idea. But there is little disagreement on this core point: Most people got a tax cut.
The Tax Policy Center estimates that 65 percent of people paid less under the law and that just 6 percent paid more. (The rest saw little change to their taxes.)
Other analyses reached similar conclusions. The Joint Committee on Taxation — Congress’s nonpartisan team of tax analysts — found that every income group would see a tax cut on average. So did the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a left-leaning think tank that was sharply critical of the law. In fact, that group went even further: In a December 2017 analysis, it found that every income group in every state would pay less on average under the law in 2019.
So far, tax season seems to be playing out more or less as the experts predicted. H&R Block, the tax-preparation giant, said last week that two-thirds of returning customers had paid less tax this year than last (excluding people who owed no tax in either year). Taxes were down, on average, in every state.
“The vast majority of people did get a tax cut,” said Nathan Rigney, an analyst at H&R Block’s Tax Institute. That’s been clear all along, he added, “just now we have real data to back that up.”
This is about half the article, and you should click it because it has graphs. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/business/economy/income-tax-cut.html It is hard to put Trump on the spectrum because he basically says everything and because of his constant lying it is hard to know what his position is. But to me the main policies that stuck out from the election were wall and tax cuts. Both which are decidedly right. And considering the next one I think of is getting rid of Obama care it is more right. What of his fiscal policies or promises strikes you as left? Trump didn't campaign on tax cuts. He campaigned on the wall, yes. But every time he was asked about doing things conservatives want done, like fixing entitlements, he said he wouldn't touch them. He didn't run on reducing the deficit, although he made noises about how he was going to save the government so much money. But he didn't campaign on tax cuts or on lowering government spending. Who decides what Trump "ran" on? He literally bragged about how he would lower or freeze the deficit a number of times while trying to get elected. If that isnt campaigning I dont know what is. Here you can find some choice quotes for those wondering: https://thinkprogress.org/trump-deficit-breaks-promises-aafedb5302c1/ This article, of course, has nothing to do with campaigning for tax cuts, although, it backs up the other part of what I said, that he made noises about saving so much money (while being incredibly vague about it). Trump specifically ran on the biggest overhaul of taxes since Reagan. It was discussed very extensively at the time by a lot of people in the topic, and in the media as a whole. Ending AMT, ending HoH, just three tax brackets, ending exemptions, pushing up phase outs etc. It was a big deal, it articulated the specifics of what it would do. You’re misremembering. If you’d like to keep misremembering I could link you to my posts at the time, but I hope you’ll be gracious enough to concede that tax overhaul was a central component of the Trump electoral platform. I'll reply this but this counts as a reply to all. Everyone candidate comes out with a plan. For everything. A candidate does not always actually spend any time campaigning on said plan. Of course this thread was all over it, because this thread was all over everything. He did not "discuss it extensively" unless by that you mean he also talked about how his own taxes should go up, or any of the other 99 things he talked about. He did not campaign as some fiscal conservative. That was a selling point to many people. You're misremembering. It was one of the key campaign issues. Hillary campaigned on keeping things exactly as they were but adding a top-up tax for the superrich. Trump campaigned on tax cuts for the middle classes. I'm not especially interested in discussing this because it's like discussing the historicity of the sinking of the Titanic. It happened. We have records. You're misremembering. I'm not going to accuse you of malicious misremembering, but you are misremembering.
I'm actually enjoying this funny coincidence. We have people telling me I'm definitely remembering the 2016 campaign incorrectly while people are blatantly misremembering the actual tax cut debate, as demonstrated by the article I posted. I didn't even plan that, and yet it happened.
I already acknowledged he had a plan, like Hillary had a plan. A plan existing and being talked about for the three days after it was announced does not, in my book, count as campaigning on it. But that's fine. We shall disagree I suppose.
edit: Spoiler tag freaked out, removed reply.
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United States42777 Posts
On April 16 2019 12:38 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 12:31 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2019 12:07 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 12:02 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2019 11:40 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 11:25 Dan HH wrote:On April 16 2019 11:19 Introvert wrote:
pointing to his website is kinda shallow. Those don't matter, espeically for Trump. The overlap between what he says and his people say is often quite large. More than once he said his own taxes should be higher. One of his most consistent things was no changes to medicare or social security. Trump didn't go to rallies and spend 20 minutes riffing on tax cuts every time. Moreover, let's say you don't believe me about tax cuts. it'd be great to see evidence he ran as a fiscal conservative which is most directly related to what I posted above.
As for what "left" things he wanted... at various times he spoke well of other countries' healthcare systems and promised that "everyone" would have "great" insurance, and endorsed more government involvement in this area. Is this gas lighting? It's not a matter of belief. We've discussed his tax cut plans in this very thread during the campaign. It was one of his main electoral promises. He did go to rallies to talk about tax cuts. I didn't say he didn't have a plan. I said he didn't run on it. Nah, I recognize this pattern. We're all going to pretend now that a plan on his website or a "plan" he put out and talked about for like 3 days is "campaigning on tax cuts." He also said (more than once) that the rich should pay more. You know, I was there too, as an outspoken critic of him for this and for many other things. This is retconning, a fairly popular thing with all stuff Trump over the past few years. On April 16 2019 11:34 On_Slaught wrote:On April 16 2019 10:56 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On April 16 2019 10:49 Introvert wrote:In some ways, Trump was a very centrist candidate. Fiscally liberal, culturally conservative is, by self-identification, the single largest group on that famous square diagram. **** And since today is tax day, here's an update in the tax law. Surprise! The media was lying. 80% got a cut, 6% got a raise in taxes, the rest were *about* the same. In particular I like the title of the piece, there's a lot going on there.
Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut
If you’re an American taxpayer, you probably got a tax cut last year. And there’s a good chance you don’t believe it.
Ever since President Trump signed the Republican-sponsored tax bill in December 2017, independent analyses have consistently found that a large majority of Americans would owe less because of the law. Preliminary data based on tax filings has shown the same.
Yet as the first tax filing season under the new law wraps up on Monday, taxpayers are skeptical. A survey conducted in early April for The New York Times by the online research platform SurveyMonkey found that just 40 percent of Americans believed they had received a tax cut under the law. Just 20 percent were certain they had done so. That’s consistent with previous polls finding that most Americans felt they hadn’t gotten a tax cut, and that a large minority thought their taxes had risen — though not even one in 10 households actually got a tax increase.
To a large degree, the gap between perception and reality on the tax cuts appears to flow from a sustained — and misleading — effort by liberal opponents of the law to brand it as a broad middle-class tax increase.
That effort began in the fall of 2017, when Republicans prepared to introduce legislation that models by the independent Tax Policy Center predicted could raise taxes on nearly a third of middle-class taxpayers. It continued through Mr. Trump’s signing of the law, even though the group’s models showed that the revised bill would raise taxes on relatively few in the middle class in the 2018 tax year.
After the law went into effect, Democrats played down those estimates and instead highlighted projections that most Americans’ taxes are set to increase in 2026, after the individual tax cuts in the law are scheduled to expire.
The messaging stuck. In December 2017, polling for The Times by SurveyMonkey showed that nearly two-thirds of Americans — and three-quarters of Democrats — did not believe they would get a tax cut from the new law. In this month’s poll, three-quarters of Democrats again said they did not think they got a tax cut from the law, and the overall share of Americans who said they had benefited rose only slightly from the 2017 expectations.
In convincing people that they would not benefit, “the Democrats did a very good job,” said Howard Gleckman, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. “They were able to put that into the public perception, and the reality has been unable to break that perception.”
Tax Cuts by the Numbers
Experts are divided on whether the tax law was a good idea. But there is little disagreement on this core point: Most people got a tax cut.
The Tax Policy Center estimates that 65 percent of people paid less under the law and that just 6 percent paid more. (The rest saw little change to their taxes.)
Other analyses reached similar conclusions. The Joint Committee on Taxation — Congress’s nonpartisan team of tax analysts — found that every income group would see a tax cut on average. So did the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a left-leaning think tank that was sharply critical of the law. In fact, that group went even further: In a December 2017 analysis, it found that every income group in every state would pay less on average under the law in 2019.
So far, tax season seems to be playing out more or less as the experts predicted. H&R Block, the tax-preparation giant, said last week that two-thirds of returning customers had paid less tax this year than last (excluding people who owed no tax in either year). Taxes were down, on average, in every state.
“The vast majority of people did get a tax cut,” said Nathan Rigney, an analyst at H&R Block’s Tax Institute. That’s been clear all along, he added, “just now we have real data to back that up.”
This is about half the article, and you should click it because it has graphs. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/business/economy/income-tax-cut.html It is hard to put Trump on the spectrum because he basically says everything and because of his constant lying it is hard to know what his position is. But to me the main policies that stuck out from the election were wall and tax cuts. Both which are decidedly right. And considering the next one I think of is getting rid of Obama care it is more right. What of his fiscal policies or promises strikes you as left? Trump didn't campaign on tax cuts. He campaigned on the wall, yes. But every time he was asked about doing things conservatives want done, like fixing entitlements, he said he wouldn't touch them. He didn't run on reducing the deficit, although he made noises about how he was going to save the government so much money. But he didn't campaign on tax cuts or on lowering government spending. Who decides what Trump "ran" on? He literally bragged about how he would lower or freeze the deficit a number of times while trying to get elected. If that isnt campaigning I dont know what is. Here you can find some choice quotes for those wondering: https://thinkprogress.org/trump-deficit-breaks-promises-aafedb5302c1/ This article, of course, has nothing to do with campaigning for tax cuts, although, it backs up the other part of what I said, that he made noises about saving so much money (while being incredibly vague about it). Trump specifically ran on the biggest overhaul of taxes since Reagan. It was discussed very extensively at the time by a lot of people in the topic, and in the media as a whole. Ending AMT, ending HoH, just three tax brackets, ending exemptions, pushing up phase outs etc. It was a big deal, it articulated the specifics of what it would do. You’re misremembering. If you’d like to keep misremembering I could link you to my posts at the time, but I hope you’ll be gracious enough to concede that tax overhaul was a central component of the Trump electoral platform. I'll reply this but this counts as a reply to all. Everyone candidate comes out with a plan. For everything. A candidate does not always actually spend any time campaigning on said plan. Of course this thread was all over it, because this thread was all over everything. He did not "discuss it extensively" unless by that you mean he also talked about how his own taxes should go up, or any of the other 99 things he talked about. He did not campaign as some fiscal conservative. That was a selling point to many people. You're misremembering. It was one of the key campaign issues. Hillary campaigned on keeping things exactly as they were but adding a top-up tax for the superrich. Trump campaigned on tax cuts for the middle classes. I'm not especially interested in discussing this because it's like discussing the historicity of the sinking of the Titanic. It happened. We have records. You're misremembering. I'm not going to accuse you of malicious misremembering, but you are misremembering. I'm actually enjoying this funny coincidence. We have people telling me I'm definitely remembering the 2016 campaign incorrectly while people are blatantly misremembering the actual tax cut debate, as demonstrated by the article I posted. I didn't even plan that, and yet it happened. I already acknowledged he had a plan, like Hillary had a plan. A plan existing and being talked about for the three days after it was announced does not, in my book, count as campaigning on it. But that's fine. We shall disagree I suppose. edit: Spoiler tag freaked out, removed reply.
Out of curiousity, does it seem plausible to you that they came up with a plan for sweeping tax reforms including ending the "death tax", "simplifying taxes", and "lowering taxes on everyone, especially the middle classes" and then didn't campaign on it? Obviously I know that they did campaign hard on it because I was there and I remember it, but wouldn't it have been pretty weird if they were like "yeah, sure, we're going to lower your taxes, but really I'm here to talk about my plans for NAFTA"? That would have been a super strange election, if it had happened that way. Like everyone is desperate to learn about how much more money they're going to have in their paycheck and Trump just keeps referring them to Paul Ryan because he doesn't want to get into all that stuff.
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On April 16 2019 12:49 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 12:38 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 12:31 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2019 12:07 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 12:02 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2019 11:40 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 11:25 Dan HH wrote:On April 16 2019 11:19 Introvert wrote:
pointing to his website is kinda shallow. Those don't matter, espeically for Trump. The overlap between what he says and his people say is often quite large. More than once he said his own taxes should be higher. One of his most consistent things was no changes to medicare or social security. Trump didn't go to rallies and spend 20 minutes riffing on tax cuts every time. Moreover, let's say you don't believe me about tax cuts. it'd be great to see evidence he ran as a fiscal conservative which is most directly related to what I posted above.
As for what "left" things he wanted... at various times he spoke well of other countries' healthcare systems and promised that "everyone" would have "great" insurance, and endorsed more government involvement in this area. Is this gas lighting? It's not a matter of belief. We've discussed his tax cut plans in this very thread during the campaign. It was one of his main electoral promises. He did go to rallies to talk about tax cuts. I didn't say he didn't have a plan. I said he didn't run on it. Nah, I recognize this pattern. We're all going to pretend now that a plan on his website or a "plan" he put out and talked about for like 3 days is "campaigning on tax cuts." He also said (more than once) that the rich should pay more. You know, I was there too, as an outspoken critic of him for this and for many other things. This is retconning, a fairly popular thing with all stuff Trump over the past few years. On April 16 2019 11:34 On_Slaught wrote:On April 16 2019 10:56 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On April 16 2019 10:49 Introvert wrote:In some ways, Trump was a very centrist candidate. Fiscally liberal, culturally conservative is, by self-identification, the single largest group on that famous square diagram. **** And since today is tax day, here's an update in the tax law. Surprise! The media was lying. 80% got a cut, 6% got a raise in taxes, the rest were *about* the same. In particular I like the title of the piece, there's a lot going on there. [quote] This is about half the article, and you should click it because it has graphs. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/business/economy/income-tax-cut.html It is hard to put Trump on the spectrum because he basically says everything and because of his constant lying it is hard to know what his position is. But to me the main policies that stuck out from the election were wall and tax cuts. Both which are decidedly right. And considering the next one I think of is getting rid of Obama care it is more right. What of his fiscal policies or promises strikes you as left? Trump didn't campaign on tax cuts. He campaigned on the wall, yes. But every time he was asked about doing things conservatives want done, like fixing entitlements, he said he wouldn't touch them. He didn't run on reducing the deficit, although he made noises about how he was going to save the government so much money. But he didn't campaign on tax cuts or on lowering government spending. Who decides what Trump "ran" on? He literally bragged about how he would lower or freeze the deficit a number of times while trying to get elected. If that isnt campaigning I dont know what is. Here you can find some choice quotes for those wondering: https://thinkprogress.org/trump-deficit-breaks-promises-aafedb5302c1/ This article, of course, has nothing to do with campaigning for tax cuts, although, it backs up the other part of what I said, that he made noises about saving so much money (while being incredibly vague about it). Trump specifically ran on the biggest overhaul of taxes since Reagan. It was discussed very extensively at the time by a lot of people in the topic, and in the media as a whole. Ending AMT, ending HoH, just three tax brackets, ending exemptions, pushing up phase outs etc. It was a big deal, it articulated the specifics of what it would do. You’re misremembering. If you’d like to keep misremembering I could link you to my posts at the time, but I hope you’ll be gracious enough to concede that tax overhaul was a central component of the Trump electoral platform. I'll reply this but this counts as a reply to all. Everyone candidate comes out with a plan. For everything. A candidate does not always actually spend any time campaigning on said plan. Of course this thread was all over it, because this thread was all over everything. He did not "discuss it extensively" unless by that you mean he also talked about how his own taxes should go up, or any of the other 99 things he talked about. He did not campaign as some fiscal conservative. That was a selling point to many people. You're misremembering. It was one of the key campaign issues. Hillary campaigned on keeping things exactly as they were but adding a top-up tax for the superrich. Trump campaigned on tax cuts for the middle classes. I'm not especially interested in discussing this because it's like discussing the historicity of the sinking of the Titanic. It happened. We have records. You're misremembering. I'm not going to accuse you of malicious misremembering, but you are misremembering. I'm actually enjoying this funny coincidence. We have people telling me I'm definitely remembering the 2016 campaign incorrectly while people are blatantly misremembering the actual tax cut debate, as demonstrated by the article I posted. I didn't even plan that, and yet it happened. I already acknowledged he had a plan, like Hillary had a plan. A plan existing and being talked about for the three days after it was announced does not, in my book, count as campaigning on it. But that's fine. We shall disagree I suppose. edit: Spoiler tag freaked out, removed reply. Out of curiousity, does it seem plausible to you that they came up with a plan for sweeping tax reforms including ending the "death tax", "simplifying taxes", and "lowering taxes on everyone, especially the middle classes" and then didn't campaign on it? Obviously I know that they did campaign hard on it because I was there and I remember it, but wouldn't it have been pretty weird if they were like "yeah, sure, we're going to lower your taxes, but really I'm here to talk about my plans for NAFTA"? That would have been a super strange election, if it had happened that way. Like everyone is desperate to learn about how much more money they're going to have in their paycheck and Trump just keeps referring them to Paul Ryan because he doesn't want to get into all that stuff.
Yes. Candidates get criticized for not having plans. It's just a requirement for one to exist. And Trump, like with many of his "plans" wanted to go big. It's funny you mention NAFTA, because that, and trade generally, were much bigger issues than tax cuts (also see the TPP).
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So this went from Trump is a Fiscally liberal, Trump tax cuts aren't that of a facial liberal, Trump didn't campaign on tax cuts, Trump did campaign on a large tax overhaul which would result in loss of government revenue which is a tax cut, That wasn't a central part of the campaign and not too important...
I believe that's the flow here...Either way still not seeing trump as anything fiscally liberal. He's pro protectionism, he's added tariffs. Although it's just hard to understand what introvert even meant by fiscally liberal.
Economic liberalism is different from social liberalism and fiscally liberal when talking about tax cuts seems to suggest maybe talking about economic liberalism in which case tax cuts and trying to divest out of government follows but tariffs and trying to reach unilateral trade deals are really against economic liberalism which strongly favors open markets.
If we're talking trumps economic policy it far more resembles something like mercantilism than liberalism. If it was meant as Trumps social platform is very far removed from the liberal platform. It doesn't even track if you conflate them.
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To put it very shortly: It means he wants to spend lots of $$$. I mean it as is meant colloquially in the USA. Your reference to mercantilism makes me think you might be using liberal differently. What I mean by it is, well, what he said. He made noise about the deficit, but he didn't want to cut anything actually costing money. He was pro-welfare state (no reforms) and pro-government involved in healthcare, to name two ways.
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Guys I think you are misunderstanding Introvert's point. It didn't feel like he was really campaigning on taxes because he was constantly calling immigrants rapists, reminiscing about his bro sesh with Billy Bush, and chanting "lock her up." When would he have had the time to talk taxes?
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That people can remember Trump campaigning on cutting middle-class taxes, raising his own taxes, and/or neither as well as see him as fulfilling any of those promises or none of them is exactly what I was talking about with his duplicity and reckless relationship with truth being intentional.
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On April 16 2019 14:59 IgnE wrote:
Guys I think you are misunderstanding Introvert's point. It didn't feel like he was really campaigning on taxes because he was constantly calling immigrants rapists, reminiscing about his bro sesh with Billy Bush, and chanting "lock her up." When would he have had the time to talk taxes?
Depends which media you were reading and which rallies you were watching, I saw mostly the tv duels and the republican pre-election meeting (forgot the name, multiple reps would hold ridiculous speeches with 10% Trump laudations, 40% self laudations and 50% ridiculous bs for hours, was pretty funny) and I remember him talking often about how he's gonna cut taxes for the middle class and reinvigorate the worker class, i.e. the coal miners. "Crooked" Hillary definitely played a role though.
Can we split Trump as inwards liberal and outwards protectionist? I think he's made clear that he's for a smaller state at least than what the center wants and cut support programs, lowered income taxes and company taxes.
Which overall is a typical standpoint of right wing populists actually, the German AfD has very similar views.
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Northern Ireland25465 Posts
On April 16 2019 17:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
That people can remember Trump campaigning on cutting middle-class taxes, raising his own taxes, and/or neither as well as see him as fulfilling any of those promises or none of them is exactly what I was talking about with his duplicity and reckless relationship with truth being intentional.
Well yeah, i felt it at the time anyway, rather been shown to be the case. In arguing with people at the time re his fiscal policy there seemed a huge disconnect between what I saw having read his whole website, and those who seemed to be going purely off his rhetoric.
Details don’t really matter to people who don’t read details, the general thrust of a campaign, especially with Trump’s all things to all people streak.
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On April 16 2019 12:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 12:07 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 12:02 KwarK wrote:On April 16 2019 11:40 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 11:25 Dan HH wrote:On April 16 2019 11:19 Introvert wrote:
pointing to his website is kinda shallow. Those don't matter, espeically for Trump. The overlap between what he says and his people say is often quite large. More than once he said his own taxes should be higher. One of his most consistent things was no changes to medicare or social security. Trump didn't go to rallies and spend 20 minutes riffing on tax cuts every time. Moreover, let's say you don't believe me about tax cuts. it'd be great to see evidence he ran as a fiscal conservative which is most directly related to what I posted above.
As for what "left" things he wanted... at various times he spoke well of other countries' healthcare systems and promised that "everyone" would have "great" insurance, and endorsed more government involvement in this area. Is this gas lighting? It's not a matter of belief. We've discussed his tax cut plans in this very thread during the campaign. It was one of his main electoral promises. He did go to rallies to talk about tax cuts. I didn't say he didn't have a plan. I said he didn't run on it. Nah, I recognize this pattern. We're all going to pretend now that a plan on his website or a "plan" he put out and talked about for like 3 days is "campaigning on tax cuts." He also said (more than once) that the rich should pay more. You know, I was there too, as an outspoken critic of him for this and for many other things. This is retconning, a fairly popular thing with all stuff Trump over the past few years. On April 16 2019 11:34 On_Slaught wrote:On April 16 2019 10:56 Introvert wrote:On April 16 2019 10:53 JimmiC wrote:On April 16 2019 10:49 Introvert wrote:In some ways, Trump was a very centrist candidate. Fiscally liberal, culturally conservative is, by self-identification, the single largest group on that famous square diagram. **** And since today is tax day, here's an update in the tax law. Surprise! The media was lying. 80% got a cut, 6% got a raise in taxes, the rest were *about* the same. In particular I like the title of the piece, there's a lot going on there.
Face It: You (Probably) Got a Tax Cut
If you’re an American taxpayer, you probably got a tax cut last year. And there’s a good chance you don’t believe it.
Ever since President Trump signed the Republican-sponsored tax bill in December 2017, independent analyses have consistently found that a large majority of Americans would owe less because of the law. Preliminary data based on tax filings has shown the same.
Yet as the first tax filing season under the new law wraps up on Monday, taxpayers are skeptical. A survey conducted in early April for The New York Times by the online research platform SurveyMonkey found that just 40 percent of Americans believed they had received a tax cut under the law. Just 20 percent were certain they had done so. That’s consistent with previous polls finding that most Americans felt they hadn’t gotten a tax cut, and that a large minority thought their taxes had risen — though not even one in 10 households actually got a tax increase.
To a large degree, the gap between perception and reality on the tax cuts appears to flow from a sustained — and misleading — effort by liberal opponents of the law to brand it as a broad middle-class tax increase.
That effort began in the fall of 2017, when Republicans prepared to introduce legislation that models by the independent Tax Policy Center predicted could raise taxes on nearly a third of middle-class taxpayers. It continued through Mr. Trump’s signing of the law, even though the group’s models showed that the revised bill would raise taxes on relatively few in the middle class in the 2018 tax year.
After the law went into effect, Democrats played down those estimates and instead highlighted projections that most Americans’ taxes are set to increase in 2026, after the individual tax cuts in the law are scheduled to expire.
The messaging stuck. In December 2017, polling for The Times by SurveyMonkey showed that nearly two-thirds of Americans — and three-quarters of Democrats — did not believe they would get a tax cut from the new law. In this month’s poll, three-quarters of Democrats again said they did not think they got a tax cut from the law, and the overall share of Americans who said they had benefited rose only slightly from the 2017 expectations.
In convincing people that they would not benefit, “the Democrats did a very good job,” said Howard Gleckman, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. “They were able to put that into the public perception, and the reality has been unable to break that perception.”
Tax Cuts by the Numbers
Experts are divided on whether the tax law was a good idea. But there is little disagreement on this core point: Most people got a tax cut.
The Tax Policy Center estimates that 65 percent of people paid less under the law and that just 6 percent paid more. (The rest saw little change to their taxes.)
Other analyses reached similar conclusions. The Joint Committee on Taxation — Congress’s nonpartisan team of tax analysts — found that every income group would see a tax cut on average. So did the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a left-leaning think tank that was sharply critical of the law. In fact, that group went even further: In a December 2017 analysis, it found that every income group in every state would pay less on average under the law in 2019.
So far, tax season seems to be playing out more or less as the experts predicted. H&R Block, the tax-preparation giant, said last week that two-thirds of returning customers had paid less tax this year than last (excluding people who owed no tax in either year). Taxes were down, on average, in every state.
“The vast majority of people did get a tax cut,” said Nathan Rigney, an analyst at H&R Block’s Tax Institute. That’s been clear all along, he added, “just now we have real data to back that up.”
This is about half the article, and you should click it because it has graphs. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/business/economy/income-tax-cut.html It is hard to put Trump on the spectrum because he basically says everything and because of his constant lying it is hard to know what his position is. But to me the main policies that stuck out from the election were wall and tax cuts. Both which are decidedly right. And considering the next one I think of is getting rid of Obama care it is more right. What of his fiscal policies or promises strikes you as left? Trump didn't campaign on tax cuts. He campaigned on the wall, yes. But every time he was asked about doing things conservatives want done, like fixing entitlements, he said he wouldn't touch them. He didn't run on reducing the deficit, although he made noises about how he was going to save the government so much money. But he didn't campaign on tax cuts or on lowering government spending. Who decides what Trump "ran" on? He literally bragged about how he would lower or freeze the deficit a number of times while trying to get elected. If that isnt campaigning I dont know what is. Here you can find some choice quotes for those wondering: https://thinkprogress.org/trump-deficit-breaks-promises-aafedb5302c1/ This article, of course, has nothing to do with campaigning for tax cuts, although, it backs up the other part of what I said, that he made noises about saving so much money (while being incredibly vague about it). Trump specifically ran on the biggest overhaul of taxes since Reagan. It was discussed very extensively at the time by a lot of people in the topic, and in the media as a whole. Ending AMT, ending HoH, just three tax brackets, ending exemptions, pushing up phase outs etc. It was a big deal, it articulated the specifics of what it would do. You’re misremembering. If you’d like to keep misremembering I could link you to my posts at the time, but I hope you’ll be gracious enough to concede that tax overhaul was a central component of the Trump electoral platform. I'll reply this but this counts as a reply to all. Everyone candidate comes out with a plan. For everything. A candidate does not always actually spend any time campaigning on said plan. Of course this thread was all over it, because this thread was all over everything. He did not "discuss it extensively" unless by that you mean he also talked about how his own taxes should go up, or any of the other 99 things he talked about. He did not campaign as some fiscal conservative. That was a selling point to many people. You're misremembering. It was one of the key campaign issues. Hillary campaigned on keeping things exactly as they were but adding a top-up tax for the superrich. Trump campaigned on tax cuts for the middle classes. I'm not especially interested in discussing this because it's like discussing the historicity of the sinking of the Titanic. It happened. We have records. You're misremembering. I'm not going to accuse you of malicious misremembering, but you are misremembering.
Hey, hey hey. I have a floaty boat for my bath called the Titanic, and that's never sunk, and when I pushed it under water it came back up! FAKE NEWS! KWARK SPREADING FAKE NEWS!!!!
User was warned for this post.
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On April 16 2019 17:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
That people can remember Trump campaigning on cutting middle-class taxes, raising his own taxes, and/or neither as well as see him as fulfilling any of those promises or none of them is exactly what I was talking about with his duplicity and reckless relationship with truth being intentional.
It's not exactly unusual for a populist to say they will cut taxes across the board and in the same breath claim that they themselves will pay more tax, another classic move in this direction is of course a populist relinquishing their stipend. I don't think placing the same importance to a major electoral promise and to an asterisk that he sometimes remembered to mention about said promise is a genuine debate.
However there was nothing resembling duplicity on his stance on corporate tax. He said he will cut it from 35% to 15%. He wrote he will cut it from 35% to 15%. He cut it from 35% to 21%. And he definitely did campaign on 'federal taxes and regulations are strangling our businesses' .
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On April 16 2019 21:27 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 17:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
That people can remember Trump campaigning on cutting middle-class taxes, raising his own taxes, and/or neither as well as see him as fulfilling any of those promises or none of them is exactly what I was talking about with his duplicity and reckless relationship with truth being intentional. It's not exactly unusual for a populist to say they will cut taxes across the board and in the same breath claim that they themselves will pay more tax, another classic move in this direction is of course a populist relinquishing their stipend. I don't think placing the same importance to a major electoral promise and to an asterisk that he sometimes remembered to mention about said promise is a genuine debate. However there was nothing resembling duplicity on his stance on corporate tax. He said he will cut it from 35% to 15%. He wrote he will cut it from 35% to 15%. He cut it from 35% to 21%. And he definitely did campaign on 'federal taxes and regulations are strangling our businesses' .
Granted it's a new campaign season it's not hard to find a headline claiming
Trump Says He's Open to Raising Taxes to Offset Middle-Class Cut
It's not really like he has anything to do with tax policy besides signing it though imo.
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Ironic that Bernie would be the one candidate bold enough to actually talk to a Fox News audience and got a remarkable response to boot. Politico writes about it here:
Sanders takes on Fox — and emerges triumphant
The Democratic front-runner ventured where his rivals haven't dared, and notched an hour of positive publicity
In the days preceding the event, Sanders faced backlash from liberals who said he shouldn’t participate given the network's nativist bent and cheerleading for President Donald Trump. But when it was over, Sanders had received an hour of positive exposure on the highest-rated cable channel — something none of his primary rivals have yet risked.
The town hall took place in a cultural center in the shadows of a former steel mill here, in a county in Pennsylvania that voted for Trump after twice supporting Barack Obama. But the room was packed with Sanders supporters, and the Vermont senator fed off the energy of the crowd.
Still, the image of an audience on Fox News rallying behind the democratic socialist and his left-wing platform gave Sanders the appearance of strong support in an area that was key to the president’s victory in 2016.
For the Sanders campaign, it was an ideal end to a four-day swing through the industrial Midwest that was meant to show that he's the presidential candidate best positioned to beat Trump. Significant numbers of Democratic primary voters are more concerned with a candidate's ability to win than his or her ideology, according to recent polls.
Some of the difficult questions asked by the hosts, Bret Baier and Martha MacCallum, were about Sanders’ “Medicare for All” plan.
When asked how he would fund the program, Sanders didn't shy away from the fact that many Americans would pay more in taxes. But he insisted the “overwhelming majority” would end up spending less money overall because they would not pay for deductibles or other out-of-pocket costs. He also downplayed concerns that people would be kicked off their insurance, arguing that millions already lose their health insurance when they get fired from or quit their jobs.
His health care plan, he said, “gives you freedom of choice.”
www.politico.com
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Northern Ireland25465 Posts
I’m not an idiot it’s not a move that is entirely without a self interested component from Sanders, still it’s bloody preferable to reach out like that as opposed to ‘fake news’ or ‘deplorables’ rhetoric all over the shop.
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On April 16 2019 21:37 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2019 21:27 Dan HH wrote:On April 16 2019 17:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
That people can remember Trump campaigning on cutting middle-class taxes, raising his own taxes, and/or neither as well as see him as fulfilling any of those promises or none of them is exactly what I was talking about with his duplicity and reckless relationship with truth being intentional. It's not exactly unusual for a populist to say they will cut taxes across the board and in the same breath claim that they themselves will pay more tax, another classic move in this direction is of course a populist relinquishing their stipend. I don't think placing the same importance to a major electoral promise and to an asterisk that he sometimes remembered to mention about said promise is a genuine debate. However there was nothing resembling duplicity on his stance on corporate tax. He said he will cut it from 35% to 15%. He wrote he will cut it from 35% to 15%. He cut it from 35% to 21%. And he definitely did campaign on 'federal taxes and regulations are strangling our businesses' . Granted it's a new campaign season it's not hard to find a headline claiming Trump Says He's Open to Raising Taxes to Offset Middle-Class CutIt's not really like he has anything to do with tax policy besides signing it though imo.
Again, a populist idea such as drastically cutting business tax without any offsets not working out and having to be reversed is run of the mill.
Something that has irked me for a long time about the effect of headlines, not just in politics, is when when we equate someone going out of their way to make known what they want (or what they want to appear to want, to be exhaustive) with someone answering 'yeah' to a prompt.
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On April 16 2019 22:04 farvacola wrote:
Sanders will win
If he makes it through the primary, he will give Trump a run for his money.
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EPT
