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Keep the discussion ON TOPIC. This thread is for discussing the terror attacks in Paris. |
On November 14 2015 09:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:22 oBlade wrote:On November 14 2015 09:11 KwarK wrote:
In my opinion the discussion of whether or not the threat of terrorism is a price worth paying to help fellow man is a far more important conversation for anyone who is not currently in Paris f5ing to find out if their loved ones are still alive. For the vast majority of us reading the latest speculation of a media industry going crazy is not going to change anything. You could go to sleep now, read about it all in the morning paper and be no worse off. F5ing the death count over and over at a certain point becomes tragedy voyeurism about events you have no control over nor stake in. Is anyone here saving back some sadness so they can be twice as sad if the death count doubles? Personally I'm already at maximum sympathy for the victims.
A discussion of the broader impact, context and importance of this event seems reasonable enough to try. That'll be the lasting legacy of tonight to the people not directly affected. You're not going to find many people who, if you actually ask them in your own idealistic terms, think that someone's life doesn't have value or that some people are less than human. What people who disagree with you think is more aligned with the real world. That as promising as life looks for all the people wanting residency in Europe, it's not really practical for parts of Europe to handle so many Syrian refugees the way that they're trying now. That such efforts ultimately hurt both sides. It's an objection on the grounds of the reality circumstances right now, and you want to refute it by appealing to a utopian principle. You do what you can. Europe may have overreached, it may not have, we'll see in time. We'll most likely also find out tomorrow whether this was a domestic attack or one committed as a result of the refugee crisis. But I reject absolutely the idea that principles disappear when the stakes are high. You do what you can and when you can't do much you don't do much and when, for practical reasons, you can't do what you'd like to you still remember what you'd like to do and you remember that you've fallen short of that. I'm not an advocate of sinking the lifeboat by trying to save it over capacity. I'm an advocate of making damn sure every seat is filled and remembering the value of those left to drown.
Right, the EU may have gone or be going to far, or they might not have gone far enough, but I'm also guessing as an LP.net member, no matter what the results of origin of these attacks were, you don't think that would prove the question either way?
What do you think about military intervention in Syria? I did ask earlier. There are some 4 million displaced Syrians, like 20% of the population. That's a huge amount. I only know Cambodia to have a similar amount of its population (albeit to genocide rather than diaspora). I just think there's an obligation to rebuild the actual country, or else it's like putting a band-aid on a much worse injury, to use another analogy. I mean imagine the strain for Turkey and the other surrounding countries up till now, let alone if this goes on indefinitely.
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On November 14 2015 09:36 KwarK wrote:
It's not definite that it was ISIS as opposed to random homegrown Muslim terrorists. ISIS would take credit for a stranger's fart in an elevator. They love social media. We'll see later on if they planned it or if it was domestic French fanboys. We'll also get to see if that difference matters at all. It'd be much easier to drop bombs on Syria than France, much more convenient to have an enemy abroad than at home.
Agreed 
They'll use that to do some random wars to people who have nothing to do with it.
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On November 14 2015 09:42 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:39 Orcasgt24 wrote:On November 14 2015 09:36 KwarK wrote:
It's not definite that it was ISIS as opposed to random homegrown Muslim terrorists. ISIS would take credit for a stranger's fart in an elevator. They love social media. We'll see later on if they planned it or if it was domestic French fanboys. We'll also get to see if that difference matters at all. It'd be much easier to drop bombs on Syria than France, much more convenient to have an enemy abroad than at home. Whats the difference between a random french ISIS fanboy killing in their name and a ISIS member from wherever else killing in their name? I don't see one. Both are ISIS. Whether the main group planned this or not, if the attackers support ISIS, it is an ISIS attack. Because going after ISIS won't solve the problem, the same reason going after Al Qaida didn't stop the terrorism either. There is a deeper root to the terrorist problem and I'm leaning towards an internal problem within France and other Western European countries.
The internal problem being? Having muslims? HoW do they suddenly become radical? Mostly through the internet and strict Saudi interpretation of the koran (mind you even the liberal interpretation is barbaric) I don't see how this is an internal problem.
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On November 14 2015 09:42 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:39 Orcasgt24 wrote:On November 14 2015 09:36 KwarK wrote:
It's not definite that it was ISIS as opposed to random homegrown Muslim terrorists. ISIS would take credit for a stranger's fart in an elevator. They love social media. We'll see later on if they planned it or if it was domestic French fanboys. We'll also get to see if that difference matters at all. It'd be much easier to drop bombs on Syria than France, much more convenient to have an enemy abroad than at home. Whats the difference between a random french ISIS fanboy killing in their name and a ISIS member from wherever else killing in their name? I don't see one. Both are ISIS. Whether the main group planned this or not, if the attackers support ISIS, it is an ISIS attack. Because going after ISIS won't solve the problem, the same reason going after Al Qaida didn't stop the terrorism either. There is a deeper root to the terrorist problem.
I agree completely with that. As wonderful as the idea of killing 100% of ISIS is, that won't do much. Someone will always replace them.
I am merely pointing out that their is no difference between the supporters of terrorists and the groups actual members.
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There is no difference, Islamic state will not stop inspiring attacks or carrying them out directly as long as it isn't defeated.
Because we all know, there was no nazis anymore after Hitler died.
But how about you explain how "a full force occupation and invasion" would've prevented this here attack. That'd be a start.
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France9034 Posts
On November 14 2015 09:44 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:42 Ysellian wrote:On November 14 2015 09:39 Orcasgt24 wrote:On November 14 2015 09:36 KwarK wrote:
It's not definite that it was ISIS as opposed to random homegrown Muslim terrorists. ISIS would take credit for a stranger's fart in an elevator. They love social media. We'll see later on if they planned it or if it was domestic French fanboys. We'll also get to see if that difference matters at all. It'd be much easier to drop bombs on Syria than France, much more convenient to have an enemy abroad than at home. Whats the difference between a random french ISIS fanboy killing in their name and a ISIS member from wherever else killing in their name? I don't see one. Both are ISIS. Whether the main group planned this or not, if the attackers support ISIS, it is an ISIS attack. Because going after ISIS won't solve the problem, the same reason going after Al Qaida didn't stop the terrorism either. There is a deeper root to the terrorist problem and I'm leaning towards an internal problem within France and other Western European countries. Right, Western Europe is the problem that's why everyone is running to us right?
That's not the point by a thousand miles. And he's right. There are issues that could be fixed with the western countries with regard to that.
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It's astonishing to think about how the football stadium attack could have caused so many more casualties. Had it exploded in the queue outside or when people were leaving the game..
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On November 14 2015 09:44 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:41 Makro wrote:On November 14 2015 09:35 ref4 wrote:On November 14 2015 09:30 Makro wrote:On November 14 2015 09:25 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 09:23 caelym wrote:
Earlier I was reading 100 hostages in Bataclan, now I'm seeing 100 dead in Bataclan. Did the raid completely fail? There were 1500 people in the Bataclan, the raid worked : the guy even used grenades to kill hostages. It's a civil war. civil war is an understatement, people don't realize that you have thousands of people in france that want to do the same the civil war has started and no one want to admit it if you have your whole military that is in the street something is wrong so what are the fractions? French government vs. Shia extremists vs. Sunni extremists vs ISIS agents? this is a civil war the terrorist are french who have different belief the images i'm watching are irrealistic, you have military people at every corner of the street, this is a state of war A handful of people doesn't make it a civil war. This is terrorism, nothing more.
handful of people ? we talk about thousand of people
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On November 14 2015 09:47 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +There is no difference, Islamic state will not stop inspiring attacks or carrying them out directly as long as it isn't defeated. Because we all know, there was no nazis anymore after Hitler died. But how about you explain how "a full force occupation and invasion" would've prevented this here attack. That'd be a start.
cause there weren't any terrorists in iraq after we invaded and killed sadaam! duh
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France9034 Posts
On November 14 2015 09:48 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:44 Ragnarork wrote:On November 14 2015 09:41 Makro wrote:On November 14 2015 09:35 ref4 wrote:On November 14 2015 09:30 Makro wrote:On November 14 2015 09:25 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 09:23 caelym wrote:
Earlier I was reading 100 hostages in Bataclan, now I'm seeing 100 dead in Bataclan. Did the raid completely fail? There were 1500 people in the Bataclan, the raid worked : the guy even used grenades to kill hostages. It's a civil war. civil war is an understatement, people don't realize that you have thousands of people in france that want to do the same the civil war has started and no one want to admit it if you have your whole military that is in the street something is wrong so what are the fractions? French government vs. Shia extremists vs. Sunni extremists vs ISIS agents? this is a civil war the terrorist are french who have different belief the images i'm watching are irrealistic, you have military people at every corner of the street, this is a state of war A handful of people doesn't make it a civil war. This is terrorism, nothing more. handful of people ? we talk about thousand of people
Wait what? There's only a handful of people running with guns in Paris right now, I don't see a whole militia. Jeez, I'm afraid of what you could be thinking right now.
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On November 14 2015 09:33 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:30 DickMcFanny wrote:On November 14 2015 09:28 Yuljan wrote:
Well I hope France calls for Nato as the US did after 9.11. What the fuck are you on about? Calling the NATO against whom? The French population? ISIS would be a start after that Saudi Arabia and the other gulf states who provide the financial support.
NATO attacking Saudi Arabia? I want some of what you're smoking.
Saudi Arabia owns most of the NATO, you do realise the USA make up more than two thirds of it?
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On November 14 2015 09:45 DeepElemBlues wrote:
There is no difference, Islamic state will not stop inspiring attacks or carrying them out directly as long as it isn't defeated. It's not like the west doesn't have the military power to decimate them it is a question of is the west willing to fight a real war in syria and Iraq with overwhelming force. Not an invasion and occupation with insufficient troop numbers like bush did in Iraq, an invasion and occupation with the full force the west can deploy. Since that would mean probably bumping into Assad and russia and iran sooner or later its almost certain not to happen.
In War time, you can have Alliance with devils against your enemys. If the Nato marches into Syria and Iraq with full force and without holding back, Iran Assad will open bottles of champagne.
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On November 14 2015 09:47 Warfie wrote:
It's astonishing to think about how the football stadium attack could have caused so many more casualties. Had it exploded in the queue outside or when people were leaving the game..
Yeah, that was probably the plan.
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good god...over 100 people dead in the concert hall alone.
may those perpetrator fucks rot in hell.
and may france stay strong.
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Sky News actually being confused by what "borders closed" meant.
Airports and railways still open and uninterrupted, so "closed border" isn't actually happening.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
The attacks are way too coordinated to not be from some kind of organization, even if it isn't ISIL.
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On November 14 2015 09:47 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:44 sharkie wrote:On November 14 2015 09:42 Ysellian wrote:On November 14 2015 09:39 Orcasgt24 wrote:On November 14 2015 09:36 KwarK wrote:
It's not definite that it was ISIS as opposed to random homegrown Muslim terrorists. ISIS would take credit for a stranger's fart in an elevator. They love social media. We'll see later on if they planned it or if it was domestic French fanboys. We'll also get to see if that difference matters at all. It'd be much easier to drop bombs on Syria than France, much more convenient to have an enemy abroad than at home. Whats the difference between a random french ISIS fanboy killing in their name and a ISIS member from wherever else killing in their name? I don't see one. Both are ISIS. Whether the main group planned this or not, if the attackers support ISIS, it is an ISIS attack. Because going after ISIS won't solve the problem, the same reason going after Al Qaida didn't stop the terrorism either. There is a deeper root to the terrorist problem and I'm leaning towards an internal problem within France and other Western European countries. Right, Western Europe is the problem that's why everyone is running to us right? That's not the point by a thousand miles. And he's right. There are issues that could be fixed with the western countries with regard to that.
Please tell me why we have to fix it?
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On November 14 2015 09:47 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +There is no difference, Islamic state will not stop inspiring attacks or carrying them out directly as long as it isn't defeated. Because we all know, there was no nazis anymore after Hitler died. But how about you explain how "a full force occupation and invasion" would've prevented this here attack. That'd be a start.
are you really saying that nazis were more of a problem after Hitler's death/Germany's defeat rather than before?!
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I believe most is over now, thanks to all the people providing information. I sincerely hope the number of casualties won't rise any further.
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On November 14 2015 09:48 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 09:48 Makro wrote:On November 14 2015 09:44 Ragnarork wrote:On November 14 2015 09:41 Makro wrote:On November 14 2015 09:35 ref4 wrote:On November 14 2015 09:30 Makro wrote:On November 14 2015 09:25 WhiteDog wrote:On November 14 2015 09:23 caelym wrote:
Earlier I was reading 100 hostages in Bataclan, now I'm seeing 100 dead in Bataclan. Did the raid completely fail? There were 1500 people in the Bataclan, the raid worked : the guy even used grenades to kill hostages. It's a civil war. civil war is an understatement, people don't realize that you have thousands of people in france that want to do the same the civil war has started and no one want to admit it if you have your whole military that is in the street something is wrong so what are the fractions? French government vs. Shia extremists vs. Sunni extremists vs ISIS agents? this is a civil war the terrorist are french who have different belief the images i'm watching are irrealistic, you have military people at every corner of the street, this is a state of war A handful of people doesn't make it a civil war. This is terrorism, nothing more. handful of people ? we talk about thousand of people Wait what? There's only a handful of people running with guns in Paris right now, I don't see a whole militia. Jeez, I'm afraid of what you could be thinking right now.
There are hundreds of french, at least, who have gone to war in syria.
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EPT
