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On June 27 2015 03:32 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 03:28 Plansix wrote:On June 27 2015 03:21 dAPhREAk wrote: five unelected justices deciding moral issues for america. victory indeed. everyone is fine with it as long as it goes their way, but wait until those five unelected justices decide morality against you then we will see what tune you are singing.
this is coming from someone who supports gay marriage, so leave your idiocy at the door. It became abundantly clear the bigots of America would never stop filing lawsuits and challenging the right for same sex marriage, so I don't really see another way. I guess we could wait until there was the political will to change it, but that didn't really work for a lot of civil rights issues. Its also nice to stand on principle when you are not he party being denied the right to marry. its the right of the bigots to file lawsuits and challenge the rights of gay marriage within the confines of the law. why are you saying that like its a negative? its not principle, its checks and balances. the supreme court has a very narrow role, but constantly expand that beyond what was originally intended. this isnt about gay marriage, its about the limited role of the supreme court. i am pleased that gay marriage is now a done deal; i am not pleased about how it was done. Its their right, but its also the right of people who are gay to not have to worry about their legal status for the rest of existence. It didn't matter how many laws were passed by state governments, the bigots were going to continue the challenge the laws until the Supreme Court ruled on it. They were never going to stop until the court told them it was 100% legal and a right.
Did you really see this ending any other way beyond congress amending the constitution?
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I want to say what I really think of this decision but I'd probably get banned so I'll just say that I do not support this decision at all and if gay couples really want people to consider them "married" they wouldn't support it either because there's a huge difference between being married and being "married" just because the Supreme Court said you're married.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 27 2015 03:44 Ravianna26 wrote: I want to say what I really think of this decision but I'd probably get banned so I'll just say that I do not support this decision at all and if gay couples really want people to consider them "married" they wouldn't support it either because there's a huge difference between being married and being "married" just because the Supreme Court said you're married.
They care about being married in the eyes of the law. Not your bigoted version of married.
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Grats USA ! And since I'm a noob when it comes down to law in the US : can State-wide parliaments still make SSM illegal via a local law? Or is this really a definitive decision that can't be challenged anymore?
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On June 27 2015 03:50 OtherWorld wrote: Grats USA ! And since I'm a noob when it comes down to law in the US : can State-wide parliaments still make SSM illegal via a local law? Or is this really a definitive decision that can't be challenged anymore?
The Supreme Court's ruling is that gay marriage cannot be banned by a law, as it is their constitutional right to marry. So no, a local law cannot be enacted to ban gay marriage. That being said, I believe local laws can likely be enacted to make the method of gay marriages difficult - to which it could be brought to court again.
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whole opinion is here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf
C.J. Roberts' dissent is what I have a problem with:
Petitioners make strong arguments rooted in social policy and considerations of fairness. They contend that same-sex couples should be allowed to affirm their love and commitment through marriage, just like opposite-sexcouples. That position has undeniable appeal; over the past six years, voters and legislators in eleven States and the District of Columbia have revised their laws to allow marriage between two people of the same sex.
But this Court is not a legislature. Whether same-sex marriage is a good idea should be of no concern to us.Under the Constitution, judges have power to say whatthe law is, not what it should be. The people who ratifiedthe Constitution authorized courts to exercise “neither force nor will but merely judgment.” The Federalist No. 78, p. 465 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961) (A. Hamilton) (capitalization altered).
Although the policy arguments for extending marriageto same-sex couples may be compelling, the legal arguments for requiring such an extension are not. The fundamental right to marry does not include a right to make a State change its definition of marriage. And a State’s decision to maintain the meaning of marriage that has persisted in every culture throughout human history can hardly be called irrational. In short, our Constitution does not enact any one theory of marriage. The people of a State are free to expand marriage to include same-sex couples, or to retain the historic definition. Today, however, the Court takes the extraordinary step of ordering every State to license and recognize same-sex marriage. Many people will rejoice at this decision, and I begrudge none their celebration. But for those who believe in a government of laws, not of men, the majority’s approach is deeply disheartening. Supporters of same-sex marriage have achieved considerable success persuading their fellow citizens—through the democratic process—to adopt their view. That ends today. Five lawyers have closed the debate and enacted their own vision of marriage as a matter of constitutional law. Stealing this issue from the people will for many cast a cloud over same-sex marriage, making a dramatic social change that much more difficult to accept.
The majority’s decision is an act of will, not legal judgment. The right it announces has no basis in the Constitution or this Court’s precedent. The majority expressly disclaims judicial “caution” and omits even a pretense of humility, openly relying on its desire to remake society according to its own “new insight” into the “nature of injustice.” Ante, at 11, 23. As a result, the Court invalidates the marriage laws of more than half the States and orders the transformation of a social institution that has formed the basis of human society for millennia, for the Kalahari Bushmen and the Han Chinese, the Carthagin- ians and the Aztecs. Just who do we think we are?
It can be tempting for judges to confuse our own preferences with the requirements of the law. But as this Court has been reminded throughout our history, the Constitution “is made for people of fundamentally differing views.” Lochner v. New York, 198 U. S. 45, 76 (1905) (Holmes, J., dissenting). Accordingly, “courts are not concerned withthe wisdom or policy of legislation.” Id., at 69 (Harlan, J.,dissenting). The majority today neglects that restrained conception of the judicial role. It seizes for itself a question the Constitution leaves to the people, at a time when the people are engaged in a vibrant debate on that question. And it answers that question based not on neutralprinciples of constitutional law, but on its own “understanding of what freedom is and must become.” Ante, at 19. I have no choice but to dissent.
Understand well what this dissent is about: It is not about whether, in my judgment, the institution of marriage should be changed to include same-sex couples. It is instead about whether, in our democratic republic, that decision should rest with the people acting through theirelected representatives, or with five lawyers who happen to hold commissions authorizing them to resolve legaldisputes according to law. The Constitution leaves no doubt about the answer.
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On June 27 2015 03:53 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 03:50 OtherWorld wrote: Grats USA ! And since I'm a noob when it comes down to law in the US : can State-wide parliaments still make SSM illegal via a local law? Or is this really a definitive decision that can't be challenged anymore? The Supreme Court's ruling is that gay marriage cannot be banned by a law, as it is their constitutional right to marry. So no, a local law cannot be enacted to ban gay marriage. That being said, I believe local laws can likely be enacted to make the method of gay marriages difficult - to which it could be brought to court again. Ok, thanks !
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On June 27 2015 03:53 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 03:50 OtherWorld wrote: Grats USA ! And since I'm a noob when it comes down to law in the US : can State-wide parliaments still make SSM illegal via a local law? Or is this really a definitive decision that can't be challenged anymore? The Supreme Court's ruling is that gay marriage cannot be banned by a law, as it is their constitutional right to marry. So no, a local law cannot be enacted to ban gay marriage. That being said, I believe local laws can likely be enacted to make the method of gay marriages difficult - to which it could be brought to court again. this happened with abortion after Roe v. Wade. Then Planned Parenthood v. Casey came out and said "no, no." it will be hard for local laws to be created and applied.
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I wonder if Roberts would write the same dissent if the issue at hand were mixed-race marriage and he were deciding Loving v. Virginia. The argument for dissent seems pretty identical, you just have to tweak a couple words.
See:
+ Show Spoiler +Petitioners make strong arguments rooted in social policy and considerations of fairness. They contend that mixed-race couples should be allowed to affirm their love and commitment through marriage, just like same-race couples. That position has undeniable appeal; over the past six years, voters and legislators in eleven States and the District of Columbia have revised their laws to allow marriage between two people of different races.
But this Court is not a legislature. Whether mixed-race marriage is a good idea should be of no concern to us.Under the Constitution, judges have power to say what the law is, not what it should be. The people who ratifiedthe Constitution authorized courts to exercise “neither force nor will but merely judgment.” The Federalist No. 78, p. 465 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961) (A. Hamilton) (capitalization altered).
Although the policy arguments for extending marriage to mixed-race couples may be compelling, the legal arguments for requiring such an extension are not. The fundamental right to marry does not include a right to make a State change its definition of marriage. And a State’s decision to maintain the meaning of marriage that has persisted in every culture throughout human history can hardly be called irrational. In short, our Constitution does not enact any one theory of marriage. The people of a State are free to expand marriage to include mixed-race couples, or to retain their historic definition. Today, however, the Court takes the extraordinary step of ordering every State to license and recognize mixed-race marriage. Many people will rejoice at this decision, and I begrudge none their celebration. But for those who believe in a government of laws, not of men, the majority’s approach is deeply disheartening. Supporters of mixed-race marriage have achieved considerable success persuading their fellow citizens—through the democratic process—to adopt their view. That ends today. Five lawyers have closed the debate and enacted their own vision of marriage as a matter of constitutional law. Stealing this issue from the people will for many cast a cloud over mixed-race marriage, making a dramatic social change that much more difficult to accept.
The majority’s decision is an act of will, not legal judgment. The right it announces has no basis in the Constitution or this Court’s precedent. The majority expressly disclaims judicial “caution” and omits even a pretense of humility, openly relying on its desire to remake society according to its own “new insight” into the “nature of injustice.” Ante, at 11, 23. As a result, the Court invalidates the marriage laws of more than half the States and orders the transformation of a social institution that has formed the basis of human society for millennia, for the Kalahari Bushmen and the Han Chinese, the Carthagin- ians and the Aztecs. Just who do we think we are?
It can be tempting for judges to confuse our own preferences with the requirements of the law. But as this Court has been reminded throughout our history, the Constitution “is made for people of fundamentally differing views.” Lochner v. New York, 198 U. S. 45, 76 (1905) (Holmes, J., dissenting). Accordingly, “courts are not concerned with the wisdom or policy of legislation.” Id., at 69 (Harlan, J.,dissenting). The majority today neglects that restrained conception of the judicial role. It seizes for itself a question the Constitution leaves to the people, at a time when the people are engaged in a vibrant debate on that question. And it answers that question based not on neutral principles of constitutional law, but on its own “understanding of what freedom is and must become.” Ante, at 19. I have no choice but to dissent.
Understand well what this dissent is about: It is not about whether, in my judgment, the institution of marriage should be changed to include mixed-race couples. It is instead about whether, in our democratic republic, that decision should rest with the people acting through their elected representatives, or with five lawyers who happen to hold commissions authorizing them to resolve legal disputes according to law. The Constitution leaves no doubt about the answer.
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On June 27 2015 04:08 TheTenthDoc wrote: I wonder if Roberts would write the same dissent if the issue at hand were mixed-race marriage and he were deciding Loving v. Virginia. The argument for dissent seems pretty identical, you just have to tweak a couple words. thats just the introduction. the next page he talks about the historical definition of marriage as between a man and woman.
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Short of an amendment to the Constitution, I don't know how gay marriage becomes legal without the Supreme Court being forced to rule on the issue. Every state in the country could pass a law that allows it and it still would have been appealed up to them. Unless every appeals court upheld that law and then the Supreme Court gets dodge the issue. But that is about as unlikely as all 50 states passing the law before now.
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On June 27 2015 04:13 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 04:08 TheTenthDoc wrote: I wonder if Roberts would write the same dissent if the issue at hand were mixed-race marriage and he were deciding Loving v. Virginia. The argument for dissent seems pretty identical, you just have to tweak a couple words. thats just the introduction. the next page he talks about the historical definition of marriage as between a man and woman.
In 1967 there were plenty of states where the historical definition of marriage was between a man and woman of the same race (some since their induction to the Union) that all had their chance to democratically decided the issue taken away. He mentions California's statute in L v V wasn't written that way (which I honestly couldn't tell from his citation) but the intent was clear.
I don't really think his dissent is wrong per se, reading more of it, but I'm a little disappointed he doesn't just say he would have dissented in Loving v. Virginia under the same logic.
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On June 27 2015 03:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i mean it's a joke that the legal benefits of marriage are mixed in with the word "marriage" which has a bunch of cultural issues
shouldve just been "personal unions" all the way down or something reposting this cuz it was at the end of a page and because like holy shit why should "traditional definition of marriage" ever matter
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On June 27 2015 04:30 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 04:13 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 27 2015 04:08 TheTenthDoc wrote: I wonder if Roberts would write the same dissent if the issue at hand were mixed-race marriage and he were deciding Loving v. Virginia. The argument for dissent seems pretty identical, you just have to tweak a couple words. thats just the introduction. the next page he talks about the historical definition of marriage as between a man and woman. In 1967 there were plenty of states where the historical definition of marriage was between a man and woman of the same race (some since their induction to the Union) that all had their chance to democratically decided the issue taken away. He mentions California's statute in L v V wasn't written that way (which I honestly couldn't tell from his citation) but the intent was clear. I don't really think his dissent is wrong per se, reading more of it, but I'm a little disappointed he doesn't just say he would have dissented in Loving v. Virginia under the same logic. can you send me a link to those historical definitions? i dont recall that when i read Loving v. Virginia in law school, but its been awhile.
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On June 27 2015 04:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 03:34 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: i mean it's a joke that the legal benefits of marriage are mixed in with the word "marriage" which has a bunch of cultural issues
shouldve just been "personal unions" all the way down or something reposting this cuz it was at the end of a page and because like holy shit why should "traditional definition of marriage" ever matter
Because the rights for legal unions were not consistent from state to state, nor were they recognized across state lines. Thus a gay couple with a legal union in New Jersey that moved to Virginia, or even just visiting, would have issues with their rights in Virginia.
Marriage has a certain definition in law.
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yeah i'm just saying i wish it didn't
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On June 27 2015 04:44 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: yeah i'm just saying i wish it didn't
Ah gotcha, sorry for misunderstanding.
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I can't say I approve, otherwise that would make me a liar. But me not approving SSM doesn't make me love the people around me any less, even those who are LGBT(Q?A?).
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On June 27 2015 03:54 dAPhREAk wrote:whole opinion is here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdfC.J. Roberts' dissent is what I have a problem with: Show nested quote +Petitioners make strong arguments rooted in social policy and considerations of fairness. They contend that same-sex couples should be allowed to affirm their love and commitment through marriage, just like opposite-sexcouples. That position has undeniable appeal; over the past six years, voters and legislators in eleven States and the District of Columbia have revised their laws to allow marriage between two people of the same sex.
But this Court is not a legislature. Whether same-sex marriage is a good idea should be of no concern to us.Under the Constitution, judges have power to say whatthe law is, not what it should be. The people who ratifiedthe Constitution authorized courts to exercise “neither force nor will but merely judgment.” The Federalist No. 78, p. 465 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961) (A. Hamilton) (capitalization altered).
Although the policy arguments for extending marriageto same-sex couples may be compelling, the legal arguments for requiring such an extension are not. The fundamental right to marry does not include a right to make a State change its definition of marriage. And a State’s decision to maintain the meaning of marriage that has persisted in every culture throughout human history can hardly be called irrational. In short, our Constitution does not enact any one theory of marriage. The people of a State are free to expand marriage to include same-sex couples, or to retain the historic definition. Today, however, the Court takes the extraordinary step of ordering every State to license and recognize same-sex marriage. Many people will rejoice at this decision, and I begrudge none their celebration. But for those who believe in a government of laws, not of men, the majority’s approach is deeply disheartening. Supporters of same-sex marriage have achieved considerable success persuading their fellow citizens—through the democratic process—to adopt their view. That ends today. Five lawyers have closed the debate and enacted their own vision of marriage as a matter of constitutional law. Stealing this issue from the people will for many cast a cloud over same-sex marriage, making a dramatic social change that much more difficult to accept.
The majority’s decision is an act of will, not legal judgment. The right it announces has no basis in the Constitution or this Court’s precedent. The majority expressly disclaims judicial “caution” and omits even a pretense of humility, openly relying on its desire to remake society according to its own “new insight” into the “nature of injustice.” Ante, at 11, 23. As a result, the Court invalidates the marriage laws of more than half the States and orders the transformation of a social institution that has formed the basis of human society for millennia, for the Kalahari Bushmen and the Han Chinese, the Carthagin- ians and the Aztecs. Just who do we think we are?
It can be tempting for judges to confuse our own preferences with the requirements of the law. But as this Court has been reminded throughout our history, the Constitution “is made for people of fundamentally differing views.” Lochner v. New York, 198 U. S. 45, 76 (1905) (Holmes, J., dissenting). Accordingly, “courts are not concerned withthe wisdom or policy of legislation.” Id., at 69 (Harlan, J.,dissenting). The majority today neglects that restrained conception of the judicial role. It seizes for itself a question the Constitution leaves to the people, at a time when the people are engaged in a vibrant debate on that question. And it answers that question based not on neutralprinciples of constitutional law, but on its own “understanding of what freedom is and must become.” Ante, at 19. I have no choice but to dissent.
Understand well what this dissent is about: It is not about whether, in my judgment, the institution of marriage should be changed to include same-sex couples. It is instead about whether, in our democratic republic, that decision should rest with the people acting through theirelected representatives, or with five lawyers who happen to hold commissions authorizing them to resolve legaldisputes according to law. The Constitution leaves no doubt about the answer.
This is a load of shit.
The judges didn't decide what the law was. They didn't make a new law or anything like that.
They ensured that all people are treated equally, as the Constitution already dictates.
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
Big grats to USA! All states finally!
I guess this will never happen in Russia until Putin an Co. are ruling
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