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Looks like I'm the only one here that is conservative through and through, unsurprisingly I'm in Alberta haha.
I think level on service here is quite good, and recently I went to Winnipeg for work for 3 months, and I was shocked to see billboards for unions everywhere, and just how the business was conducted there, gave me a strong vibe of everything getting done really slow. Having brought a prime contractor from Alberta for a project, and hiring Manitoba trades was quite the shock for them haha.
Outside Quebec, I've found Edmonton and Calgary to be the nicest cities to be in, and I've been everywhere really with a population over 200k, so Conservatives did something well here.
At the end of the day for me, whether it's safety or environment, it's all a balance that deserves its own CBA, not going to either extreme. We also need to compare ourselves to countries with large land area to population, because we naturally are a resource economy versus a technology one, so our emissions will be higher. Our GDP to pollution isn't bad for such a sparsely populated country, and we need to discuss international targets, versus handicapping ourselves and having the same CO2 emissions coming from other resource economies.
I supported the Liberals with Cannabis legalization (even though I don't partake myself), and was really hoping they'd make some strides on legalizing prostitution that doesn't take place on the streets, unfortunate.
Platform wise, not a big fan of raising child care benefits, or having interest free tuition, not having to pay back unless you make over $35k/year, and all that stuff. There is a cost to post secondary education, and it's a very reasonable one, I think our post secondary system is excellent really, with its structure I think it might be the best in the world if we had more higher tech industry here.
On immigration, I wouldn't raise the number much, and I'd bring in less refugees, and rather bring in more young economically motivated individuals who are the most likely to assimilate.
I've never felt a benefit when my taxes go up, whether it's provincial or federal, I am a very life is what you make of it type of person, and don't feel like these auxiliary services are all that important. Why do people want transit to be free (come out of everyone's taxes), rather than be self funding, people who use the product should pay for it, that's allows capitalism to be efficient. More and more people aren't wanting to have kids, it's not fair that people who make active decisions to live a more lavish lifestyle should pay for other peoples' kids for example. Social programs need to be such that people can get out of their rut and back to work, something that they do a more than decent job at, I'm not convinced about these mental health clinics, all these courses there, I think they are things that should be addressed better in our K-12 system. Minimum $1200 EI payments and such are not in spirit of people taking care of themselves.
"Liberals promising to cut cell phone bills by 25%" are statements that you piss me off. Like how will you do that, instead of saying something like that, if the competitive market isn't doing its job well, then have a government body (which they do), to oversee how the telecom carriers operate, and amend regulations so they are more competitive. But how can you just say you'll cut them by 25%, are you going to give my money I paid in taxes back to me?
As a society we improve when technology/efficiency improves, all I see the NDP/Liberals talk about is a redistribution of money, which is super stupid, especially long term. Short term I can see the argument, but its a selfish one. My example is there's two types of people, the ones moving the world forward, and the ones who go with the direction of the wind (most people), let's say those that move the world forward get 70% and the wind people get 30%. Now short term, sure it makes sense, make it a 60-40 split, diminishing returns on money raise the wellness of society. But instead of arguing about minor distributions, let's put our energy to make the one pie of production into two pies of production, and have everyone better off. Anyway, it's just a typical political rant now, just wanted to get my viewpoint out that we're looking too much at what to tax rather than where we can improve production (lower barriers of entry, education, technology investment, competition).
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On October 17 2019 10:35 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2019 10:20 Ben... wrote:
I agree with the post above about outcomes. Conservative majority is my nightmare scenario. Fuck all will be done on the environment if they have a majority and we'll get austerity measured to death like Ontario and Alberta are right now. Austerity in Ontario? LOL. the Teacher's are the 2nd highest paid teachers on planet earth with the average teacher salary higher than the average lawyer salary. Meanwhile, they are sitting on a $200 Billion pension fund. ... that is Billion with a B pension fund. Every retired teacher is given handy tips on how to keep their retirement salary just under $100,000 a year so they don't appear on teh Sunshine list. "retired" is after 32 years of work so there are plenty of "retired" teachers under 60 making $99,000 a year. The average ontario teacher makes $83,500.
Good. They deserve it. Teaching is one of the most difficult and important jobs there is. Though I highly doubt your claims about teachers making more than lawyers. Children are a lot of work to teach and take care of and parents are a fucking nightmare to deal with these days. Next we should start paying Teaching Assistants what they're actually worth since their jobs are in many cases nearly as difficult.
You won't find me getting mad at a teacher getting paid $83k a year. Frontline workers should be paid far more money than some fuck sitting at a computer pivoting tables in Excel.
And as cuts go, Ford has either cut or attempted to cut billions in budgets or removed budgets altogether for many important programs. They tried to cut over a billion dollars from the Public Health fund while expecting municipalities to make up for it half way through the fiscal year before having a massive backlash since it would impact things like flu shots and lunch programs, they cut millions from a program to help low-income students with tuition right before the start of the school year, leaving students in a lurch. Don't even get me started on the autism cuts they tried to put forward before public sentiment got so toxic that they had to back off. Cuts like those are completely immoral.
On October 17 2019 10:45 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +and we'll get austerity measured to death like Ontario and Alberta are right now. Why would we need austerity measures? Just a short time ago, Trudeau deliberately started running deficit budgets. Even supposing Scheer would be bold enough to roll them back, why would going back to pre-Trudeau levels suddenly be considered austerity? Does increased spending so quickly convert into structural deficits?
The Conservative platform has literally billions of dollars in cuts in it. "Pre-Trudeau" levels were austerity. Austerity was Harper's economic strategy and the Liberals in 2015 were considered the "anti-austerity" party in the media.
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On October 17 2019 11:16 JimmiC wrote:
Odd thing to have a hate on for though.
You have a habit of attaching emotion to posts that are not there. You do this repeatedly with GreenHorizons and he has asked you to stop doing this. So I'd like to echo GreenHorizon's request. Please, stop inferring/assuming emotions in my posts. Furthermore, "hate" is over the top hyperbole.
I no longer live in Ontario and I'm not a parent in Ontario. I pay very little Ontario provincial tax so I don't have any emotion on this issue. I'm pointing out the proper course of action for the Ontario provincial government to take in dealing with the Teachers' Union.
As far as it being an "odd thing to hate" ... I can empathize with Ontario parents being angry. Have you ever lived in Ontario? I live in Ontario for 30 years. Do you know any parents in Ontario who are continuously dealing with the threats of job action as the Teachers continuously spout their rhetoric that this is all "for the children"? I know many parents going through this every year. I can empathize with their situation.
Mike Harris won two elections crushing the Teachers' Union. Parents were tired of what they viewed as highly paid teachers constantly threatening to go on strike. There is significant animus amongst Ontario parents for the Teachers' Union. Mike Harris tapped into that emotion helping him win elections in 1995 and 1999.
In conclusion, some degree of negativity towards the Teachers' Union is common amongst Ontario parents.
On October 17 2019 11:16 JimmiC wrote:
Teachers make a lot of money, but most of this is made up garbage. I'm not sure if that is by you or some "news" source you check but it is time for a new one.
"made up garbage" is strong hyperbolic silliness. Which of my facts are "made up garbage" ? You say "most" without going into detail.
I'll correct and clarify and add better precision to some of your points though because your info is not specific enough to directly disagree with any of the facts i presented.
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Alberta average teacher salary after 10 years is 99k, I think it's maybe 10-20% higher than it should be, but it's the nature of public workers being overpaid in recessions and underpaid in booms.
I was a bit grumpy with all the engineers and business majors starting at like 50k in Alberta when I graduated in a recession, not to mention benefits being worse, and then having my friends wife starting as a nurse starting at 80k, and being able to take ad much time off as she needed for maternity and stuff and having the position available for her, good luck with that working as an engineer. Most scientists have it worse than that too, and imo the private sector work is more challenging and stressful as a whole. But over the whole career, there is more potential I suppose, so it balances out a bit.
Im quite anti union as a whole, because instead of lifting up everyone it lifts up a specific group of people and puts no incentive on people to try and fight for rights for everyone. A bus driver who makes 70k a year doesn't have a job that is more difficult that some sales supervisor in BestBuy to me, but the salary is much different, it's just another case of the public sector not spending the money as efficiently as the private.
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28095 Posts
On October 17 2019 11:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Looks like I'm the only one here that is conservative through and through, unsurprisingly I'm in Alberta haha.
For what it's worth I'm fairly central overall and I'd consider myself somewhat "party agnostic", as in I'm willing to vote for the best candidate possible. I will say given similar candidates I will lean somewhat more to the left due to social issues generally favored there.
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On October 17 2019 11:16 JimmiC wrote:
They are making 70% of their income before they retire at full level, if you include cpp (which I don't know why you would unless you were trying to make it look higher even though everyone gets it so it makes no sense for comparison). So unless you think teachers make more than 140k per year this is not correc.
"They are making 70% of their income before they retire at full level"
This is incorrect.
Ontario Teachers get 70% of THEIR BEST 5 YEARS of income.
Source:
https://www.otpp.com/members/cms/en/life-career-events/the-basics/how-we-calculate-your-pension.html
So , if a teacher worked summer school and some extra overtime and made $130,000 one year that counts as one of their best 5. The AVERAGE Ontario Teacher salary is more than $83,500
in 2013 the average teacher made $83,500. Teacher's salaries have gone up since then
https://www.macleans.ca/economy/business/the-new-upper-class/
A teacher's "best 5 years" is well over $83.500. Once you add in CPP this is how you get 57 year olds making $95 to $99K
Here is the "Sunshine List" for Hamilton-Wentworth. It is filled with teachers making way over $100,000. So their OTPP alone will be over $70,000. Once you include their other annuities you're near $100,000. Which is pretty typical for Ontario Teachers that are retired.
https://www.hwdsb.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2018-PSSD.pdf
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On October 17 2019 12:06 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2019 11:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:
Looks like I'm the only one here that is conservative through and through, unsurprisingly I'm in Alberta haha.
For what it's worth I'm fairly central overall and I'd consider myself somewhat "party agnostic", as in I'm willing to vote for the best candidate possible. I will say given similar candidates I will lean somewhat more to the left due to social issues generally favored there.
Well social issues are usually solved with more money distribution, so yeah, like you said, automatic left. Too easy to say we should help unfortunate people and go left, finding the balance and not just being kind hearted is the tough part.
The left does a good job with not getting religion involved as much, and somehow giving us more personal liberty / making a police state. So that's the balance I gripe with, but I've been so unhappy about the economic decisions and excessive emphasis (to me) on social issues, that I can put behind my issues with Conservatives.
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On a personal note. My in-high-school best friend is an Ontario High School teacher. Both his parents are school principals. His parents both make over $120,000. You can just check the "Sunshine List" though. Lots of principals make over $120,000.
On October 17 2019 11:35 Ben... wrote:
Good. They deserve it. Teaching is one of the most difficult and important jobs there is. Though I highly doubt your claims about teachers making more than lawyers.
Here you go.
https://www.macleans.ca/economy/business/the-new-upper-class/
Once you factor in the incredibly rich retirement benefits teachers receive that lawyers must self fund its not close. Teachers make significantly more than Lawyers in Ontario. Keep in mind, Ontario Teacher's salaries have gone up since 2013.
With an average income of $83,500, schoolteachers in Ontario now earn the same as the average lawyer in that province, according to the treasurer of the Law Society of Upper Canada. Canada’s teachers are the best-paid in the world after only Germany’s. As Ontario’s sunshine list shows, it’s not uncommon for teachers to make more than $100,000 (88 in Hamilton alone in 2012, up from 21 the year before). And while lawyers have to fund their own retirement, teachers in Ontario have one of the country’s richest pension plans. It pays 70 per cent of their top earnings, and some begin claiming it as young as 53.
53 is a bit young. 57+ is when that pension money really starts to kick in.
On October 17 2019 11:35 Ben... wrote:
And as cuts go, Ford has either cut or attempted to cut billions in budgets or removed budgets altogether for many important programs. They tried to cut over a billion dollars from the Public Health fund while expecting municipalities to make up for it half way through the fiscal year before having a massive backlash since it would impact things like flu shots and lunch programs, they cut millions from a program to help low-income students with tuition right before the start of the school year, leaving students in a lurch. Don't even get me started on the autism cuts they tried to put forward before public sentiment got so toxic that they had to back off. Cuts like those are completely immoral.
meh, the province is drowing in a sea of red ink. $360 Billion is out of line for the GDP of the province. I thought Mike Harris did a much better job with cutbacks when he was Premier. When Mike Harris was premier the debt went from ~$40 Billion to around $0.
Lots of cutbacks are needed in Ontario.
The great thing about no debt is you don't have to make any interest payments; all your tax money can go to the people of the province rather than to massive international financiers.
I prefer zero debt. Then if you have extra money left over you can create new and better social programs the way Ontario Premier Bill Davis did from 1971 to 1985. And, again, none of the tax money goes to international financiers... it stays with the people.
On October 17 2019 12:09 JimmiC wrote:
Getting mad at me to deflect from you making stuff up won't work.
To put my complaints about Ontario into their full context I'd like to say this:
Ontario is still a good place to live. It used to be great though. In my opinion, Ontario has declined from great to being only good/above-average over the past 15 years or so. I was damn lucky to be born in and grow up in Ontario.
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Opinion piece from former Minister Garth Turner. The amount of money being thrown around is ridiculous. Bringing back 30 year mortgages is also stupid and favorable for the banks. I remember posting an article about Trudeau committing to some spending post 2023 which was pretty pathetic.
This may be dangerous, but no guts, no glory. Let’s make some assumptions about you, the hapless, addicted readers of this pathetic, athletic blog.
You’re no socialist. You want taxes lower, not higher. The trade-off may be less from government. Not a problem. You favour ending deficits, controlled spending in Ottawa, no debt balloon. You don’t hate people with small businesses. You think a top tax bracket of 53% is high enough. Rich people aren’t evil. The climate may need fixing, but you’re not sure civil servants are the ones to do it. And why are we giving money to people to buy houses when that just makes them cost more?
That sum it up? Good.
So, who do you vote for? Let’s review what the major parties would do to your personal finances (and your nation).
The Dippers
Disaster, actually. Rampant federal spending and endless deficits, according to Jag. ‘Rich’ people would see Canada’s first wealth tax brought into being – a 1% annual levy on all assets, personal, business and real estate. This would raise billions, but also lead to accountants and tax lawyers entering a golden age. The likely result would be higher income tax brackets to make up the difference and, most consequentially, a big change to capital gains tax.
Currently 50% of the increased value in financial assets (stocks, ETFs, bonds, rental real estate) as well as cottages and businesses is included in personal income and taxed at the marginal rate. So the most anyone pays is about 26% of the capital gain. The Dippers would jump the inclusion rate to 75%, increasing the tax take by half. Ouch. You can imagine the impact this would have on anyone with a non-registered retirement portfolio, or transferring ownership of the family cabin.
Regarding real estate, the socialists would impose a 15% tax on Chinese dudes (on top of the existing 15-20% taxes) and allow 30-year mortgages. Plus all new home buyers would get a pony. Your choice of color.
The Libs
If you liked the last four years of increased spending, more government and the crawl towards cradle-to-grave nurturing, you’ll love the new agenda. More money to parents to finance babies, more paid parental leave, more people removed from the tax rolls, more CPP paid to survivors, more OAS paid to 75+ wrinklies, and free money to moisters for their epic mortgages.
All that comes with a big pricetag. Deficits of at least $90 billion over four years, which will increase the national debt by about 12% – a massive amount over a single term of government. To help pay for that the Trudeau gang will bring in a 10% ‘luxury’ tax on stuff costing more than $100,000, including cars, boats and RVs. Also likely is some diddling with dividends and capital gains taxes (that was in the 2015 platform) and maybe another assault on entrepreneurs, docs and others with incorporations. If the economy slides into a recession, or interest rates rise a little, the river of red ink could become an ocean. When everybody gets a prize for showing up, the money soon runs out. Who knew?
The Tories
At every stop now the prime minister lumps Andrew Scheer in with “Doug Ford, Stephen Harper and Jason Kenney”. Oh yeah, and Trump. The message is clear. Be afraid of cons and cuts.
Actually the Conservatives are planning deficits, too. But only for a couple of years, then spending will match revenues. They will also cut taxes, but more broadly, and bring in credits for families and transit users, while providing tax-free maternity/paternity benefits and money to make houses more energy-efficient. Foreign aid will be hacked 25% but no mention of chops to social programs.
Conservatives would end the carbon tax and also reverse the ban on income-splitting for small business owners which came into effect last year. Then entrepreneurial couples could share dividends as they did in the past. Scheer would unwisely gut the mortgage stress test and (like the NDP) bring back 30-year amortizations. Both, of course, would make real estate cost more.
Meanwhile Greens & the Max Party are irrelevant. Liz will have a couple of MPs and no influence. PPC will be a one-man party. The morning of October 22nd could bring a minority government, red or blue (even tied), and in the days after, possibly a coalition. Tories and the Bloc could coalesce, which would be odd. Or the Libs and NDP might join. God help us.
https://www.greaterfool.ca/2019/10/15/here-we-go-3/
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Just discuss the facts please. Continuing to speculate about how I feel is getting trolly.
On October 17 2019 13:21 JimmiC wrote:
Their ottp wont be 70k they otpp + their cpp will be 70k.
The more you go on about this the clearer it is that you don't know any retired teachers/educators in Ontario.
In any event. OAS and CPP are added on top of OTPP.
A "bridge benefit" means CPP is added on top of OTPP.
https://www.otpp.com/members/cms/en/life-career-events/retirement-life/you-and-cpp/when-should-you-take-cpp.html
Here is the teacher's CPP calculation
https://pspp.pensionsbc.ca/how-we-calculate-your-pension
OAS and OTPP are also separate.
https://www.otpp.com/members/cms/en/life-career-events/retirement-life/you-and-cpp/understanding-your-retirement-income.html
Clawbacks once you are over $76,000 are partial. You still get some OAS.
I've provided the formula already for how OTPP is paid. CPP funds and OTPP funds do not mix together. They are separate pension funds with separate management and separate pay out structures.
https://www.otpp.com/corporate/executives
On October 17 2019 13:35 JimmiC wrote:
I also still dont think you understand that tax payers are not paying the pention, the fund is.
This is incorrect. The government of Ontario pays the teachers. This comes from Ontario tax payers. The Fund was started with tax payer money and Government of Ontario assets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Teachers'_Pension_Plan
Now, the OTPP is independent. Teachers make conttributions to OTPP. The teachers get that money from the Government of Ontario. That is money from the tax payers of Ontario.
Ultimately, any money and assets the teachers got to build the fund came from tax payers. The Teachers deserve credit for wisely managed the Pension fund. They've done a good job.
On October 17 2019 13:35 JimmiC wrote:
Im personally glad that it is well funded and managed, that is a large group of seniors that are not going to need goverment assistance in their retirement and will be contributing to the tax coffers even after they stopped working because of their past savings. The Harper goverment would likely agree because they added additional retirement savings offers to canadians in hopes of lowering that future burden as well.
I think its great the OTPP is really well managed. Keep in mind all that money that originally started the pension fund came from Ontario Tax Payers. During Ontario's peak as the economic engine of Canada in the Bill Davis Era and Mike Harris Era its wonderful that Teachers made amazing money and had a great pension. The average Ontarian was doing great and our standard of living was increasing constantly. That was awesome. However, now times are tougher in Ontario and everyone should share a bit of the burden of these less than great times Ontario is going through.
I'd like to see the teachers take a pay cut and use some of their $200 Billion pension fund to give themselves the same level of take home pay so they still have spending money.
Source for $200 Billion Pension Fund
https://www.otpp.com/news/article/-/article/879042
Many in Ontario are enduring cut backs because times aren't great. That should include the primary school and public school teachers.
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Damn, I should have moved to Canada.
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On October 17 2019 14:24 Jerubaal wrote:
Damn, I should have moved to Canada.
The USA had an incredibly close 2016 election. It appears that in 2019 Canada is headed for an incredibly close election as well.
The Canadian election differs from the US election in that we have 4 parties jockeying for 338 seats in parliament. When we find out how many seats each party has won on election night that might just be the beginning of a game of thrones style power struggle to determine who runs the country. The power broker moves could extend for several days after the election.
A party you've probably never heard of the before , the Bloc Quebecois, could wind up having a huge amount of power.
it really is fascinating times for Canada.
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Canada11388 Posts
Geez. I work in the independent school system and get paid 50K after 7 years. Clearly if I wanted more money, I should be working in the public schools... and switch provinces.
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On October 17 2019 16:56 Falling wrote:
Geez. I work in the independent school system and get paid 50K after 7 years. Clearly if I wanted more money, I should be working in the public schools... and switch provinces.
I mean yes, but at the same time it doesn't surprise me that teachers in Ontario or BC would make way more money than teachers elsewhere. The cost of living for the areas around Toronto or Vancouver is completely nuts compared to most other places, but even so you still need teachers there so it's necessary they get paid enough to be able to live there. If you get paid an extra $30k a year but $24k of it goes to housing and you have to commute over an hour each way per day, are you really much further ahead than if you just stuck with a lower paying teaching job in a lower cost community?
That's not to say that teachers elsewhere shouldn't earn more. I definitely think they should, especially here in the prairies where they have to deal with a lots of, let's say, closed-minded parents and students (I have a distinct memory of talking to a history teacher in high school just after he had got off the phone with a hardcore creationist parent who had screamed at him for teaching the history of the theory of evolution in his history class focused on the Enlightenment. He seemed pretty shaken. It's bullshit that he had to deal with that since he was just following the curriculum).
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EPT
