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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4742 Posts
I think this huge part of the problem, newes were screaming Syrians/refugees but in reality people who came were rarely from Syria itself and more often from Northern Africa, Caucasus etc. Also people tend to forget the Poland itself is right now home to about 2milion Ukrainians (economical migration and/or fleeing war) and nobody has problem with that. This isnt solely about religion (Ukrainians are mostly Orthodox). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 13 2017 08:27 sc-darkness wrote: You can't compare Polish people to Syrians. Polish people are Europeans and they share a lot of values with other European countries. I share no value with the current Poland. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9270 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 13 2017 19:04 Sent. wrote: Your updates on the situation in France make it sound like you share no value with the current France as well Haha! Quite on the contrary, I often feel more in line with the majority of my compatriots than the current government.  | ||
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sharkie
Austria18572 Posts
The problem are the people who "flee" their country because living in social Europe is easier. They are called "Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge" in German - economic refugees? These people have no reason to be here except being lazy | ||
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain18204 Posts
On November 13 2017 19:41 sharkie wrote: Majority of Europeans have no problems with war refugees. The problem are the people who "flee" their country because living in social Europe is easier. They are called "Wirtschaftsflüchtlinge" in German - economic refugees? These people have no reason to be here except being lazy That's obviously not true either. There are plenty of economic refugees who are fleeing a poor region not because they want to live on the dole in Europe, but because they want to work in Europe. Given a choice between subsistance farming in Eritrea or working a minimum wage job in Germany (or even being exploited as illegal labor, and earning far less than minimum wage), they risk a dangerous journey for a chance at the latter. You don't really seem to realize how much of a hell hole a lot of the world is for a lot of the people living in it. Should we just open the borders because there are people more miserable than we are? No, of course not. But it's a lot more complicated than "they come here to mooch off our welfare state". | ||
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sharkie
Austria18572 Posts
On November 13 2017 19:49 Acrofales wrote: That's obviously not true either. There are plenty of economic refugees who are fleeing a poor region not because they want to live on the dole in Europe, but because they want to work in Europe. Given a choice between subsistance farming in Eritrea or working a minimum wage job in Germany (or even being exploited as illegal labor, and earning far less than minimum wage), they risk a dangerous journey for a chance at the latter. You don't really seem to realize how much of a hell hole a lot of the world is for a lot of the people living in it. Should we just open the borders because there are people more miserable than we are? No, of course not. But it's a lot more complicated than "they come here to mooch off our welfare state". You seem to forget how much a hell hole Europe was after WW2? Why do you think so many old people in Europe are so against these economic refugees? Because they lived through the same hell, stayed in the country and worked their asses off to be able to live a nice life now. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
They suffer the same problems any uneducated person here suffers from, just that we are trying to keep their numbers low through education. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10137 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18572 Posts
On November 13 2017 20:35 Godwrath wrote: I can't believe you are comparing third world countries to post-ww2 european recovery. The former doesn't have the industrial and social foundantions or the investment done by the first world done to refloat them. It's not a problem of foundation but a problem of mentality. Why do you think northern European states are more successful than the Southern ones? Because one side is lazier than the other side... | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10137 Posts
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ZBiR
Poland1092 Posts
On November 13 2017 18:21 Silvanel wrote: 2 millions is an estimation for the end of the year on the total number of work permits given out in the last couple of years. Calling that being "a home" for them all is a misappropriation at best, and a manipulation otherwise. Actually only 270 thousands pay social insurance.Also people tend to forget the Poland itself is right now home to about 2milion Ukrainians nobody has problem with that. I beg to differ. I know plenty of people who have a problem with that, and I live in a big city in the western part of the country. If a minister in the government publicly entertains a thought of banishing not just foreigners, but also (ethnically Polish) atheists and liberals, then you can be sure that less radical stances will be common among their supporters.This isnt solely about religion (Ukrainians are mostly Orthodox). Obviously. African Catholics aren't welcome. | ||
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farvacola
United States18846 Posts
On November 13 2017 20:43 Dangermousecatdog wrote: All this talk of "European" values is bizarre from the perspective of brexit. The migration that a great deal of British people appeared to be against were migration from the EU. The reality of immigration into UK didn't matter. French, German, Spanish, Italian, it seems to make no difference or was too naunced for the brexiters to consider. They are all lazy, feckless, different. Eastern Europeans were demonised. Polish immigrants were referred to as a different culture. Romanians and Bulgarians were referred to as hordes of immigrants coming to take our jobs and leech off our welfare system. Sound familiar? We can call it the sliding scale of unwarranted fear of the "Other." | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18204 Posts
On November 13 2017 20:20 sharkie wrote: You seem to forget how much a hell hole Europe was after WW2? Why do you think so many old people in Europe are so against these economic refugees? Because they lived through the same hell, stayed in the country and worked their asses off to be able to live a nice life now. Even if I were to take this ridiculous equivalency seriously, those people are over 70 years old (and that's being generous. Most of the people who actually rebuilt Europe are over 90), and won't be affected at all, or is there now a sudden fear of brown people robbing their pensions too? So other than old people worrying that the world is changing, is there any actual basis for your statement? Because old people have opposed change since the first ape started walking on two legs. And it's not an economic argument on the basis that "they rebuilt Europe and should reap the benefits", because they already do. It's not even a nationalistic argument that "they rebuilt Europe for Europeans, and foreigners should keep their dirty hands where they belong". It's simply old people not wanting to deal with change. Unless you're talking about the baby boomers. They didn't rebuild Europe though. They were kids in the time Europe was being rebuilt (by their parents). And all of that without even addressing the false equivalency of Eritrea and post-war Western Europe. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
Does the Marshall plan mean anything to you? If yes then you might know one factor of why you're wrong and totally off the mark with your remarks regarding the strong and resilient European populace being able to rebuild the continent. If not you have some reading to do. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On November 13 2017 20:43 Dangermousecatdog wrote: All this talk of "European" values is bizarre from the perspective of brexit. The migration that a great deal of British people appeared to be against were migration from the EU. The reality of immigration into UK didn't matter. French, German, Spanish, Italian, it seems to make no difference or was too naunced for the brexiters to consider. They are all lazy, feckless, different. Eastern Europeans were demonised. Polish immigrants were referred to as a different culture. Romanians and Bulgarians were referred to as hordes of immigrants coming to take our jobs and leech off our welfare system. Sound familiar? Sounds like the same anti-Brexit trash that attempted to carry the referendum. It turns out citizens want some say in who comes in. The EU has thus far taken this burden upon themselves with a poor showing. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On November 13 2017 20:28 Big J wrote: The problem is that there is a huge discreptancy between the image in many migrants heads and reality. If you are past 15 and you don't have a decent education you are not going to make it in Europe. Add to that a language barrier and they end up with hardly any chances given our high-tech economical structure. They suffer the same problems any uneducated person here suffers from, just that we are trying to keep their numbers low through education. The opportunity for an illiterate migrant “past 15” in Europe is far closer to “mak[ing] it” than in most source countries for economic migrants in sub-Saharan Africa. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 13 2017 20:38 sharkie wrote: It's not a problem of foundation but a problem of mentality. Why do you think northern European states are more successful than the Southern ones? Because one side is lazier than the other side... Racist essentializations are always so deep and convincing | ||
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