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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9304 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-12 15:31:33
November 12 2017 15:30 GMT
#19781
Bias within acceptable limits, doesn't ignore the normal attendees, doesn't bring up nazism and holocaust for no reason... This is much better than that awful thing from yesterday.

Oh, look at this

+ Show Spoiler +
You're now breathing manually
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12467 Posts
November 12 2017 15:43 GMT
#19782
Glad we could set the record straight that these people were willing to march alongside ethnonationalists rather than being ethnonationalists themselves, I was so concerned with what was happening before I read that and now the situation doesn't seem problematic in the slightest.
No will to live, no wish to die
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9304 Posts
November 12 2017 15:58 GMT
#19783
I know it may be hard to grasp, even on a gaming form, but "unit collision mechanic" also exists in real life. Do you really think 60 000 people covered an area so small that those who came with their kids were in vision range of those who needed to be watched by riot police? How do you even imagine parents taking their little kids to march alongside masked young men holding beer bottles in their hands and shouting vulgar phrases?
You're now breathing manually
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22415 Posts
November 12 2017 16:02 GMT
#19784
On November 13 2017 00:58 Sent. wrote:
I know it may be hard to grasp, even on a gaming form, but "unit collision mechanic" also exists in real life. Do you really think 60 000 people covered an area so small that those who came with their kids were in vision range of those who needed to be watched by riot police? How do you even imagine parents taking their little kids to march alongside masked young men holding beer bottles in their hands and shouting vulgar phrases?

The same way I imagine college students with tiki torches marching next to KKK members and skinheads waving swastika's while saying they were only their to keep a nice statue around.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Reaps
Profile Joined June 2012
United Kingdom1280 Posts
November 12 2017 16:04 GMT
#19785
On November 13 2017 00:43 Nebuchad wrote:
Glad we could set the record straight that these people were willing to march alongside ethnonationalists rather than being ethnonationalists themselves, I was so concerned with what was happening before I read that and now the situation doesn't seem problematic in the slightest.


If you wasn't so desperate to label everyone you'd probably understand the situation might be a little more naunced than you think.

What Sent said above would be a start.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
November 12 2017 16:15 GMT
#19786
I'm sure some of them are fine people.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12467 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-12 16:20:48
November 12 2017 16:20 GMT
#19787
On November 13 2017 01:04 Reaps wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2017 00:43 Nebuchad wrote:
Glad we could set the record straight that these people were willing to march alongside ethnonationalists rather than being ethnonationalists themselves, I was so concerned with what was happening before I read that and now the situation doesn't seem problematic in the slightest.


If you wasn't so desperate to label everyone you'd probably understand the situation might be a little more naunced than you think.

What Sent said above would be a start.


I portrayed the nuance in my answer. You don't like how I feel about the nuance, but it's annoying to argue against that so instead you argue as if I didn't take the nuance into account. Convenient.
No will to live, no wish to die
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-12 16:33:34
November 12 2017 16:32 GMT
#19788
BERLIN (Reuters) - The far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) party called on Thursday for the repatriation of half a million Syrian refugees living in Germany, saying the war there was nearly over and that President Bashar al-Assad had urged refugees to return home.

Earlier on Thursday, Syria’s army declared victory over Islamic State, saying its capture of the jihadists’ last town in the country marked the collapse of their three-year, hardline reign in the region.

However, fighting is continuing in many areas, the United Nations says, in a complex civil war in which millions have been killed or forced to flee their homes, many to neighboring countries or to Europe.

The AfD’s proposal for repatriating Syrian refugees is its first since it swept into Germany’s lower house of parliament, the Bundestag, in September’s federal election on an anti-immigrant platform.

It is the third largest party in the new Bundestag but the proposal is very unlikely to win approval as mainstream parties including Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives, the biggest bloc, have refused to work with the AfD.

In its proposal, the AfD said the new German government should immediately start talks with Syrian authorities over a deal to repatriate the refugees.

“This deal should ensure that the returnees will be accepted in Syria and accommodated only in safe areas,” the AfD said in a statement adding that Damascus must guarantee not to persecute citizens who escaped the military draft.

The proposal said Syrian refugees’ children in Germany should now be taught the Syrian school curriculum, either by Syrian teachers already resident in Germany or by teachers sent by the Syrian government for this purpose.

The statement, signed by the two party leaders Alexander Gauland and Alice Weidel, said the Syrian government should work with Germany to finance the repatriation, which they said should be free for the individual refugees.

The Greens party, which is expected to join Merkel’s new conservative-led coalition, said the AfD proposal showed the party to be “irresponsible, inhumane and heartless”.

“No subject is too abysmal, no populism is too dirty for you. Shame on you!” Greens politician Luise Amtsberg said on her Facebook account, commenting on the proposal.

Immigration is one of the difficult issues where Merkel’s conservative bloc, the left-leaning Greens and the pro-business Free Democrats (FDP) are struggling to forge a common stance in their coalition talks.

Since the beginning of the year, some 156,000 people have applied for asylum in Germany, more than 25 percent of them from Syria, making them the biggest national group, data from the Federal Interior Ministry showed on Thursday.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-12 21:44:58
November 12 2017 20:36 GMT
#19789
This proposal to let Syrians return home is actually nice and peaceful which is more than I expected from AfD. I think the German government should go for it but they don't have the courage to do so.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6277 Posts
November 12 2017 20:43 GMT
#19790
Are you sarcastic? It's a warzone...
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 12 2017 20:45 GMT
#19791
Not to mention that Assad is fucking crazy and that their security is by no means guaranteed politically
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-12 22:08:00
November 12 2017 22:05 GMT
#19792
Well, the cost of letting Syrians in Europe is also high unless you're left wing who thinks uncontrolled immigration is absolutely fine. Then again, it's Western Europe which mainly pays the cost so.. I guess it doesn't matter to Eastern Europe.

That said, I think they should go home when it's safe to do so.
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2395 Posts
November 12 2017 22:28 GMT
#19793
On November 12 2017 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
Shows how little I know about Europe. I would think Poland would want to shut down anything that even resembled Nazi's.

You guys worried about "white genocide" over there or is that just a US thing?

Each nation has its own collective memory and scars. Democracy is relatively recent to most European countries and it's not a coincidence that in countries that came out of right-wing dictatorships (Portugal, Spain, Greece), radical left parties have a significant popular support, while countries that came out of the USSR have significant radical right parties.

Nobody talks about 'white people' in Europe. The only parallel are fears about the 'islamization' of Europe. Ironically, anti-immigration sentiment is particularly high in Poland, despite the fact that the influx of Poles in Western Europe following the fall of USSR is comparable in numbers with the Syrian migration into Europe.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-12 22:52:09
November 12 2017 22:36 GMT
#19794
On November 13 2017 07:28 warding wrote:
Nobody talks about 'white people' in Europe. The only parallel are fears about the 'islamization' of Europe


panslavism and pangermanism etc.. are much more on the political fringe than race is in US discourse, but they do exist and they are very much being utilised by far-right groups across Europe. This goes from orthodox or more broadly Christian reactionary groups in Russia and Eastern Europe to anti-semitism in for example Hungary or even far-right parties in Austria who toy around with German nationalism (Kulturdeutsche)

Völkisch ideology might be purposely kept low-profile within larger parties because they see their chance of making it into the mainstream, but it is far from dead.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11873 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-12 23:13:51
November 12 2017 23:12 GMT
#19795
On November 13 2017 07:36 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2017 07:28 warding wrote:
Nobody talks about 'white people' in Europe. The only parallel are fears about the 'islamization' of Europe


panslavism and pangermanism etc.. are much more on the political fringe than race is in US discourse, but they do exist and they are very much being utilised by far-right groups across Europe. This goes from orthodox or more broadly Christian reactionary groups in Russia and Eastern Europe to anti-semitism in for example Hungary or even far-right parties in Austria who toy around with German nationalism (Kulturdeutsche)

Völkisch ideology might be purposely kept low-profile within larger parties because they see their chance of making it into the mainstream, but it is far from dead.


Yes, but european racism is usually not between white and black people.

It usually appears in the form of a more religious thing (European secular christians vs muslims) and/or nationalism of some sort (germans vs poles etc...)

"White" is usually not the relevant identifier, though some people use "brown" as an identifier for muslims.

And while "white genocide" isn't a thing here, fear of "islamization" is (Not in large parts of the population, but in the right-wing parties like AfD.

Regarding the "syrians can return to syria" AfD thing: It is not as if anyone is currently stopping them from doing so. The problem is that they don't want to return(reasonably so) because syria is a murderous warzone. So what they are actually saying is not "They are allowed to return", they mean "We need to force them to return and not care about what happens to them there".

Yes, accepting refugees costs some money. But i don't want to be part of a society which sends people back into a warzone to die because it would cost some money to not do that.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
November 12 2017 23:20 GMT
#19796
I wouldn't mind sending AfD members into a warzone. Since they are trying to gas the whole planet with their climate change denial I have absolutely no guilty conscience to see them dead before they can kill me. I mean, if they keep on hinting towards restarting gas chambers (very recent case from some FPÖ guy in Austria) I believe we should do them that favor.
sc-darkness
Profile Joined August 2017
856 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-12 23:30:08
November 12 2017 23:27 GMT
#19797
On November 13 2017 07:28 warding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2017 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
Shows how little I know about Europe. I would think Poland would want to shut down anything that even resembled Nazi's.

You guys worried about "white genocide" over there or is that just a US thing?

Each nation has its own collective memory and scars. Democracy is relatively recent to most European countries and it's not a coincidence that in countries that came out of right-wing dictatorships (Portugal, Spain, Greece), radical left parties have a significant popular support, while countries that came out of the USSR have significant radical right parties.

Nobody talks about 'white people' in Europe. The only parallel are fears about the 'islamization' of Europe. Ironically, anti-immigration sentiment is particularly high in Poland, despite the fact that the influx of Poles in Western Europe following the fall of USSR is comparable in numbers with the Syrian migration into Europe.


You can't compare Polish people to Syrians. Polish people are Europeans and they share a lot of values with other European countries. I can't say the same about Syrians which is what my previous post is about. Anyway, this topic isn't something that mods will be happy for people to discuss.
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2395 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-13 00:20:32
November 13 2017 00:19 GMT
#19798
On November 13 2017 08:27 sc-darkness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2017 07:28 warding wrote:
On November 12 2017 18:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
Shows how little I know about Europe. I would think Poland would want to shut down anything that even resembled Nazi's.

You guys worried about "white genocide" over there or is that just a US thing?

Each nation has its own collective memory and scars. Democracy is relatively recent to most European countries and it's not a coincidence that in countries that came out of right-wing dictatorships (Portugal, Spain, Greece), radical left parties have a significant popular support, while countries that came out of the USSR have significant radical right parties.

Nobody talks about 'white people' in Europe. The only parallel are fears about the 'islamization' of Europe. Ironically, anti-immigration sentiment is particularly high in Poland, despite the fact that the influx of Poles in Western Europe following the fall of USSR is comparable in numbers with the Syrian migration into Europe.


You can't compare Polish people to Syrians. Polish people are Europeans and they share a lot of values with other European countries. I can't say the same about Syrians which is what my previous post is about. Anyway, this topic isn't something that mods will be happy for people to discuss.

I really don't see how you step out of the hypocrisy based on that argument. Poles had to face anti-immigration sentiments in European countries because they were different - poorer, different language, different sense of humor, culinary traditions, etc. Arguing that it's OK to be anti-immigration because Syrians are differenter pretty much validates the resentment migrant Poles faced.

Furthermore, a sizable chunk of the British, French and German citizens already share similar backgrounds as the Syrian immigrants. Painting western European nationalities as homogeneous blocks of old good white Christians is erroneous.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28804 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-13 00:30:37
November 13 2017 00:29 GMT
#19799
I have far more in common culturally with the syrians I have spoken to (rented a room to a syrian refugee for a month, he was amazing) than I do with the average christian conservative pole. (And I'm married to a polish girl and I've been to poland like 20 times. I also experienced a huge difference in mentality between 20-25 year olds from Gdansk than I do from random people in Bialystok.) Nationality or place of birth is not a good indicator of how many cultural values I share with people. Urban areas have different value sets from rural areas, young people have different from old people, people with university education have different values from high school dropouts, people with a degree in history have different values from people with a degree in economics, people who watch youtube videos of Ben Shapiro have different values from people who watch youtube videos of Cenk Uygur, people who listen to 70s prog have different values from people who favor EDM. I could go on, but either way, I feel that literally all of these today are stronger indicators of 'cultural commonality' than nationality is.
Also, the current polish government - meaning they have significant popular support - in many ways attempts to distance itself from the 'western european values' that I myself heartily embrace. Syrian refugees like western values so much that they want to migrate here (whereas polish workers to a far greater degree only come here because they want to make money which they can then spend in poland.) I don't actually object to that behavior either - but my experience is that Syrians are significantly more interested in integrating into Norwegian society than Polish immigrants are.
Moderator
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-11-13 01:01:20
November 13 2017 01:01 GMT
#19800
people who prop up Syrians as a kind of antagonist to 'western values' are using 'Syrian' as a generic replacement for 'arab' and have evidently not met a lot of Syrians. Young urban Syrians are pretty 'westernised' by any standard, because Syria before the war was a fairly busy and diverse country.
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