|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
1) Pretty sure almost no one in France even remembers what happened last year in Poland.
2) French medias don't really discuss in length what happens in Eastern Europe, most often you will have a 2-3 minutes report on TV from a very broad perspective (often about tensions with the EU).
3) Most mainstream medias tend to be pro-EU so they will portray pro-EU demonstrations in a more favorable light.
4) Despite their own chart, journalists rarely correct their mistakes (somewhat understandable since for some this would triple their work time...). Since a Polish demonstration is seen as a small subject, they certainly won't publish any rectification for the number of people which attended a demonstration in a foreign country. Figures are only discussed extensively for demonstrations in France. Most articles regarding foreign affairs are simply copy/paste of what the AFP does. If the AFP says 240k then all newspapers will repeat 240k without even checking (they don't even have the material means to do so, and they don't care anyway).
So long story short, no.
|
Generalising is bad (this applies to describing FN supporters as human trash too) but if one person physically attacks another because of their political views, it's not outrageous to call the act or the perpetrator barbarous. You can argue that it's an exaggeration but it takes a lot of bad will to assume that SoSexy literally sees no difference between savage animals and leftists.
|
One short comment that is not that topical:
A "manifestation" in english is not the same as "une manifestation" in french. The correct english word is probably "demonstration". A "manifestation" is usually an appearance of something supernatural, like a ghost or jesus on a toast.
|
On April 18 2017 22:40 Simberto wrote:
One short comment that is not that topical:
A "manifestation" in english is not the same as "une manifestation" in french. The correct english word is probably "demonstration". A "manifestation" is usually an appearance of something supernatural, like a ghost or jesus on a toast.
There is a lot of similar "false friends" between English and many European languages. Ironically I guess it's easier to understand correctly for non-native speakers, because the errors are often quite universal (this particular instance is the same in Czech for example).
|
On April 18 2017 22:13 LightSpectra wrote:
I think the problem is this fundamental perception that the FN and others are not 'really' fascists, that this time it's really different. I mean, for fuck's sake, you think Hitler was campaigning on a platform of gassing all the Jews in 1930? No, obviously not, he was using his chosen scapegoat as a means to portray himself as a lone savior for Germany's social woes.
There was a funny poll the other day about how FN voters viewed the FN. Among other questions, they were asked if the FN was racist. 38% of FN voters answered yes. + Show Spoiler +68% for the general population, 71% for 18-35 years old, 86% for the left, 82% for centrists, 68% for the right, 22% for FN sympathizers 62% for the general population, 81% for the left, 70% for centrists, 64% for the right, 13% for FN sympathizers
On April 18 2017 22:40 Simberto wrote:
One short comment that is not that topical:
A "manifestation" in english is not the same as "une manifestation" in french. The correct english word is probably "demonstration". A "manifestation" is usually an appearance of something supernatural, like a ghost or jesus on a toast.
Fixed, thanks
|
On April 18 2017 22:48 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2017 22:13 LightSpectra wrote:
I think the problem is this fundamental perception that the FN and others are not 'really' fascists, that this time it's really different. I mean, for fuck's sake, you think Hitler was campaigning on a platform of gassing all the Jews in 1930? No, obviously not, he was using his chosen scapegoat as a means to portray himself as a lone savior for Germany's social woes. There was a funny poll the other day about how FN voters viewed the FN. Among other questions, they were asked if the FN was racist. 38% of FN voters answered yes. + Show Spoiler +68% for the general population, 71% for 18-35 years old, 86% for the left, 82% for centrists, 68% for the right, 22% for FN sympathizers They were also asked if the FN was a threat to democracy. 30% answered yes! + Show Spoiler +62% for the general population, 81% for the left, 70% for centrists, 64% for the right, 13% for FN sympathizers Quite funny considering that 85% of those same FN voters had answered yes to “Democracy is the only acceptable form of government in France,” uh? Show nested quote +On April 18 2017 22:40 Simberto wrote:
One short comment that is not that topical:
A "manifestation" in english is not the same as "une manifestation" in french. The correct english word is probably "demonstration". A "manifestation" is usually an appearance of something supernatural, like a ghost or jesus on a toast. Fixed, thanks
Those stats make perfect sense
1. some of those people are racists, and support FN because they believe it is.
2. some of those people think democracy is a bad idea (fairly easy to argue) and support FN because they believe it is a threat to a bad system of government.
"Democracy is the only acceptable form of government in France" Could mean "Democracy is the only form of government the French people will accept"..at least right now.. but if they knew what was good for them they would accept something else.
Finally, I could agree "chemotherapy is a threat to your health" and "health is good" and still support chemotherapy if the chemotherapy takes care of a bigger problem.
|
On April 18 2017 23:51 Krikkitone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2017 22:48 TheDwf wrote:On April 18 2017 22:13 LightSpectra wrote:
I think the problem is this fundamental perception that the FN and others are not 'really' fascists, that this time it's really different. I mean, for fuck's sake, you think Hitler was campaigning on a platform of gassing all the Jews in 1930? No, obviously not, he was using his chosen scapegoat as a means to portray himself as a lone savior for Germany's social woes. There was a funny poll the other day about how FN voters viewed the FN. Among other questions, they were asked if the FN was racist. 38% of FN voters answered yes. + Show Spoiler +68% for the general population, 71% for 18-35 years old, 86% for the left, 82% for centrists, 68% for the right, 22% for FN sympathizers They were also asked if the FN was a threat to democracy. 30% answered yes! + Show Spoiler +62% for the general population, 81% for the left, 70% for centrists, 64% for the right, 13% for FN sympathizers Quite funny considering that 85% of those same FN voters had answered yes to “Democracy is the only acceptable form of government in France,” uh? On April 18 2017 22:40 Simberto wrote:
One short comment that is not that topical:
A "manifestation" in english is not the same as "une manifestation" in french. The correct english word is probably "demonstration". A "manifestation" is usually an appearance of something supernatural, like a ghost or jesus on a toast. Fixed, thanks Those stats make perfect sense 1. some of those people are racists, and support FN because they believe it is. 2. some of those people think democracy is a bad idea (fairly easy to argue) and support FN because they believe it is a threat to a bad system of government. "Democracy is the only acceptable form of government in France" Could mean "Democracy is the only form of government the French people will accept"..at least right now.. but if they knew what was good for them they would accept something else. Finally, I could agree "chemotherapy is a threat to your health" and "health is good" and still support chemotherapy if the chemotherapy takes care of a bigger problem.
We have pretty good schools so those people have definitly opened a history book at one point, which usually feature very very few times and systems that are fairer or better in any way than ours.
I don't think that hatred for liberal democracy is evrr rooted in anything very subtantial or rational. Usually a shit ton of resentment and a desire for a strong man to kick the butt of those leftists / muslim immigrants / gay people / whoever else one takes for responsible of his failures and insecurities.
|
The main issues with France for me are, this is just my opinion, that its very centralised and that your a little too strike happy (like germans are not enough strike happy) and the whole politics/diplomatic school career thing (its fine for diplomats, but thats a profession, politician imho shouldn't be). These are minor issues when compared to most other systems.
All else? The critics are mostly idiots that are a bit too good off for their own good.
|
On April 19 2017 01:39 Velr wrote:
The main issues with France for me are, this is just my opinion, that its very centralised and that your a little too strike happy (like germans are not enough strike happy) and the whole politics/diplomatic school career thing (its fine for diplomats, but thats a profession, politician imho shouldn't be). These are minor issues when compared to most other systems.
All else? The critics are mostly idiots that are a bit too good off for their own good.
The single biggest issue with France is indeed its centralization, built around the founding myth that every citizen is just like another, and in the end is not so much an individual with distinct traits, sensibilities, and qualities, but more importantly an interchangeable piece of the big State-machine.
|
On April 19 2017 02:30 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 01:39 Velr wrote:
The main issues with France for me are, this is just my opinion, that its very centralised and that your a little too strike happy (like germans are not enough strike happy) and the whole politics/diplomatic school career thing (its fine for diplomats, but thats a profession, politician imho shouldn't be). These are minor issues when compared to most other systems.
All else? The critics are mostly idiots that are a bit too good off for their own good.
The single biggest issue with France is indeed its centralization, built around the founding myth that every citizen is just like another, and in the end is not so much an individual with distinct traits, sensibilities, and qualities, but more importantly an interchangeable piece of the big State-machine.
Sounds like 1984. I lived 25 years in France and never figured out it was some kind of communist dystopia.
In all seriousness, French people are much less interchangeable when it comes to affirmation of their personalities and sensibilities, than northern europeans. I would say that the fact that everyone has a big mouth and think he knows how to solve the world, and our incapacity to accept being just an interchangeable piece when it comes to team work are our biggest problem as a people.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Elections in France on Sunday, yes? Do you have early voting or is it just going to be all done the day of?
|
On April 19 2017 04:52 LegalLord wrote:
Elections in France on Sunday, yes? Do you have early voting or is it just going to be all done the day of?
All in one day [for mainland France], from 08:00 CEST to 19:00 (20:00 for some big cities). Results may arrive a bit later than usual, around 20:15-30 if the first three-four candidates are too close to each other.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Hmm, so by my time I'll start hearing about how it goes starting Sunday afternoon. Seems like a hard one to call considering how much uncertainty is present in this campaign. At this point it looks like it could be anyone of the four in the runoffs.
|
Yeah could be anybody, my guess is Macron and Le Pen still, they seem to have settled in. IIRC Mélenchon underperformed his polling results in 2012 by a huge margin but I don't think this will happen this year, he seems to have more momentum but I guess it'll not be quite enough.
|
On April 18 2017 22:40 Simberto wrote:
One short comment that is not that topical:
A "manifestation" in english is not the same as "une manifestation" in french. The correct english word is probably "demonstration". A "manifestation" is usually an appearance of something supernatural, like a ghost or jesus on a toast.
Or just something more spiritual becoming visible through concrete example generally. "Embodiment" is a similar concept. E.g. Trump is a manifestation of America's racist tendencies. Buffy the Vampire Slayer allows the hero to face manifest forms of the challenges of growing up and stab them to death.
|
Given the amount of inflammatory statements from the last days, Le Pen was a bit stressed by her dynamic in polls:
- She had the EU flag removed behind her in a TV interview (the decoration was a simulation of l'Élysée)
- Philippot, the Front National n°2, called the EU flag an “oligarchic rag” and claimed that they will soon “put it in a closet”
- Le Pen claimed that in the 17th century, “maybe protestants had demands which conflicted with the nation” (she had just quoted Richelieu as one of the historic figures who inspire her, to which the journalist replied that he had not been very friendly to protestants)
- She claimed that, had she been in power, terrorist attacks would not have happened
- She said that colonization “brought a lot, especially in Algeria,” adding that “even Algerians of good faith admit it”
- She wants a “moratorium on legal immigration” (apparently targetting long-period visas)
- She repeated that she wants to terminate le droit du sol [birthright citizenship]
- Her fathed publicly called to vote for her
When in danger, fly back to the fundamentals, uh?
|
On April 19 2017 05:18 Nyxisto wrote:
Yeah could be anybody, my guess is Macron and Le Pen still, they seem to have settled in. IIRC Mélenchon underperformed his polling results in 2012 by a huge margin but I don't think this will happen this year, he seems to have more momentum but I guess it'll not be quite enough.
If I have read the information correctly there are a huge amount of undecided French people, I'm guessing most of these aren't actually undecided but are shy to say they are voting for Francois Fillon and Le Pen so I think those two will make the final 2 and then Fillon will win the 2nd vote.
|
Germany3128 Posts
Frauke Petry won't be the top candidate for the AFD next Bundestags election or work in a team.Source sadly in German.
This will probably hurt the AFD a lot. While not popular within Germany she certainly is with AFD sympathizers. The alternative is probably someone way to the right of her
|
On April 19 2017 22:28 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 05:18 Nyxisto wrote:
Yeah could be anybody, my guess is Macron and Le Pen still, they seem to have settled in. IIRC Mélenchon underperformed his polling results in 2012 by a huge margin but I don't think this will happen this year, he seems to have more momentum but I guess it'll not be quite enough. If I have read the information correctly there are a huge amount of undecided French people, I'm guessing most of these aren't actually undecided but are shy to say they are voting for Francois Fillon and Le Pen so I think those two will make the final 2 and then Fillon will win the 2nd vote.
None of the polls are done by phone, so why would people be “shy” to express their votes by Internet?
On the contrary, Fillon and Le Pen are the ones who are the closest to their highest potential. They have the most determined base for weeks. The uncertainty is rather at their left... to avoid their meeting in the second round.
|
So what's the point of the runoff happening later instead of instantly? That eliminates the primary advantage of instant runoffs, which is that you can vote for who you legitimately think is best instead of strategically voting for whoever is second-worst.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
