|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 06 2017 00:12 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2017 23:55 Makro wrote:On April 05 2017 12:42 LegalLord wrote: Word on the grapevine says Melenchon won the debate. Is that accurate? won would an overstatement and i don't know how you can measure it, but he's the most well spoken of all of the candidate he's a good orator, hard to deny that Hamon on the other hand, from what I saw and heard, seems like an annoying distraction no one really likes. he got schooled by melenchon like a kid that can't affirm himself, it was sad
to think that the far left is in a stronger position than the left would have been unreal some years ago, but it's almost the same with the right and far right
|
Don't understand why some federalists believe the UK has to be "punished" for leaving. Trying to keep the EU together with threats and blackmail is a fundamentally wrong approach. We should strive to make the EU so good nobody will want to leave. However, I also don't see why the EU should take the UK's well-being into consideration when negotiating the Brexit deal. It should focus on securing the European interests, and if securing these requires doing something not beneficial to the Brits it's their problem, not ours.
|
Oh, the UK won't be punished. They will just pay their fair share. Untangling the UK from the EU has certain costs involved, and the UK also signed up to long term financial obligations. Why should tax payers all over Europe pay for the costs of the UK leaving?
The problem is the spin that these costs are there to 'punish' the UK. It is not 'punishment'. It is the harsh reality of leaving the EU.
I agree that the EU is better off without the UK. UK was just a disrupting factor, asking for special treatment all the time and undermining the equality within the EU. But the UK people are off worse. That's why I would have rather see them stay.
In the end, the voters in the UK are more like the Americans that vote for Trump than like the Germans that vote for Merkel. And hat cannot be helped. Democracy is harsh. You get what you deserve.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On April 06 2017 01:31 Sent. wrote: Don't understand why some federalists believe the UK has to be "punished" for leaving. Trying to keep the EU together with threats and blackmail is a fundamentally wrong approach. We should strive to make the EU so good nobody will want to leave. However, I also don't see why the EU should take the UK's well-being into consideration when negotiating the Brexit deal. It should focus on securing the European interests, and if securing these requires doing something not beneficial to the Brits it's their problem, not ours. Honestly I would hope that the EU negotiators are just putting on a tough face and intend to let pragmatism dominate when it comes to actual discussions. In truth - every indication is that there simply is no such consensus and that the ideologues are in charge here. Too many people want to show the Brits that it's either the hard line isolation from the union or the "grovel back and accept all our terms" solution. It would not have come to Brexit if the concerns of the British had not been more reasonably considered, rather than generally dismissed as the ramblings of an annoying contrarian holding back the Europe project.
|
On April 06 2017 01:18 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2017 00:39 Big J wrote:On April 05 2017 23:48 bardtown wrote:On April 05 2017 23:47 Passion wrote: Ah, people, people.
The UK has long been an obstruction to positive further development of the EU.
If they are happy to go, I am happy to see them leave, even though it's obviously a sad victory for populist leaders through the manipulation of the naive.
I think the shift in the balance of power might finally give the EU the chance to make the necessary next steps.
That said, I see no reason to not let them feel the price of their decision. I do recommend people here to look up some of the more sophisticated debates about the EU. The majority of people who voted for it are not supporters of populism but moderate Conservative/Labour voters. I can direct you to videos if you're interested. Not sure about the people, but from the discussions I remember the political supporters seem to be mainly liberterians who gamble on access to the European market out of European self-interest. Precisely for that reason the EU should play a harsh punishment trade war strategy until the UK returns to a sensible position, in which they don't try to abuse a common market as an even greater tax haven than what they are already. I don't think many of them would call themselves libertarians, but that's a pretty central economic point to the Leave argument, yes. The EU has a large trade surplus with the UK, so it is in their interest to maintain tariff free trade. The argument then goes that if the EU would hurt its own citizens to harm the UK in order to scare EU citizens into remaining in a political union then it's not a union but a protection racket. In which case, nobody with a backbone would want to stay anyway. Also, in the 'trade war' scenario you're proposing the EU loses calamitously, because, even putting the surplus to one side, there is hardly a bank in the EU that isn't reliant on capital/services from London. The idea that the EU is in a position to put banks at risk to prove a political point is pretty naive. The EU is grappling with multiple crises already.
It would be in everyone's interest to maintain tariff free trade and the same tax levels over a trade war. That is off the table, the British strategy seems to be to hold the ground and suck mainland European businesses into their reach through extraordinary low levels of taxation. In that scenario it is in the EU's interest to make it impossible to use any of these advantages and suck out as much of the British economy as possible before the actual Brexit.
Your views on who loses harder in a trade war are just the Trump views, which are strongly opposed by many economists. If you are the importer, imposing a tariff means you make your people pay the cost. The true question however is also, what is being exported and what other possibilities are there to redirect that trade. I believe the EU is in a vastly stronger position in that case, since I believe the European goods are much easier to redirect to the European market and other trade partners, than the UK's service based exports. Which is why those financial services seem to be playing very openly with moving away from the UK to keep their most valueable assets, their customer networks.
On April 06 2017 01:31 Sent. wrote: Don't understand why some federalists believe the UK has to be "punished" for leaving. Trying to keep the EU together with threats and blackmail is a fundamentally wrong approach. We should strive to make the EU so good nobody will want to leave. However, I also don't see why the EU should take the UK's well-being into consideration when negotiating the Brexit deal. It should focus on securing the European interests, and if securing these requires doing something not beneficial to the Brits it's their problem, not ours.
I don't think the UK should be punished for leaving, I believe they should not be a trade partner if they try to steal foreign industries with low taxes. It's hard enough in the EU to deal with those, we really don't need free capital movements to (and from) an outsider country on the basis of tax evation.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
What do Brits and/or mainland Europeans think of the situation surrounding this article?
Theresa May’s opening bid of putting security on the Brexit negotiating table will be viewed by defence, intelligence and police chiefs across Europe – and even within the UK – as both surprising and brutal. Theresa May has signed, sealed and delivered article 50. Our writers respond
The president of the European parliament, Antonio Tajani, able to speak more openly than officials, responded relatively politely, saying “close cooperation on defence, police, intelligence and action against terrorism” should continue whether there is a deal or not. The European parliament’s Brexit coordinator, Guy Verhofstadt, was less restrained, throwing in the word “blackmail” and saying security should not be used as a bargaining chip.
At the heart of the threat is the pre-eminence in Europe of UK intelligence-gathering on terrorism, crime and perceived international threats such as Russia. Much of this intelligence is routinely shared with partners elsewhere in Europe.
One of the biggest problems for May is that the threat will be seen not only as reckless – using European-wide sharing of intelligence on terrorism for leverage in a trade deal – but that it lacks credibility. The former permanent secretary to the Treasury, Sir Nicholas Macpherson, said as much: “Not a credible threat to link cooperation to a trade deal.”
Intelligence agencies across Europe are going to continue sharing information about terrorist plots whatever Brexit deal emerges. The UK police will continue to work with counterparts elsewhere in Europe. And European defence is not a European Union issue but one for Nato, the US-led alliance.
It is almost inconceivable that any of the UK intelligence agencies – MI5, MI6 or GCHQ – picking up any hint of a terrorist attack being planned on the continent would hesitate to pass it on.
But that works both ways. France, Germany or any other European intelligence agency might not have had anything to pass on about last week’s Westminster terror attack – no evidence has emerged yet that Khalid Masood had any links to European jihadis – but they have informed the UK often in the past about visits or communications involving either British extremists on the continent or European jihadis in the UK.
Although Downing Street later tried to play down May’s words, insisting there was no implied threat, the prime minister’s letter is explicit. “In security terms, a failure to reach agreement would mean our cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened,” she wrote.
The home secretary, Amber Rudd, supposedly sent out to dampen down the issue in an interview on Sky, simply added to the sense that security was now a negotiating tactic. She said, rightly, that the UK was the biggest contributor to the European law enforcement agency, Europol, in terms of supply of information but added an explicit threat: “If we left, we’d take our information with us,” she said.
Raffaello Pantucci, the director of international security studies at the London thinktank the Royal United Services Institute, said there could be a benign interpretation: that May was just flagging up that the UK is a big actor in terms of European security. He estimated that about 40% of the information going to Europol came from the UK and the European counter-terrorism strategy had been lifted almost word by word from the UK’s one.
But he added: “I like to hope and think this is not a direct threat that the UK would turn a blind eye to incidents on the continent. It is a bit surprising.”
The UK is likely to pull out of Europol, which is at present headed by a Briton, Rob Wainwright, a former MI5 analyst. Giving evidence to the Commons home affairs select committee this month, he said that European crime-fighting would be weakened if the UK was to leave. But the UK would also be a loser, he said, citing the European arrest warrant scheme, which he said had allowed the UK to send 2,000 criminals back to other European countries since 2004.
“That’s 2,000 criminals fast-tracked out of Britain, and if we lost that capability it is unlikely to be nearly as effective,” Wainwright said.
The UK has embraced, alongside the US, the idea that Russia has emerged as a major security threat, particularly to the Baltic states. Just this month, the UK deployed troops to Estonia for the first time since the end of the cold war. But that is as part of Nato. There is no European defence force. No one in the UK Ministry of Defence, where Nato is regarded as the cornerstone of UK defence, would contemplate for a nanosecond doing anything that would undermine Nato.
The head of the UK’s overseas spy agency, MI6, Alex Younger, in a rare speech in December, addressed the issue of Brexit. The threats from terrorism and elsewhere existed before Brexit, he said, and the joint capabilities to defeat it had existed before it too.
“The need for the deepest cooperation can only grow. And I am determined that MI6 remains a ready and highly effective partner, just as the UK is and will be. These partnerships save lives in all of our countries,” Younger said.
Source
|
Pretty despicable statement from May to try to use security as a bargaining chip. Economic issues are fair game in trade negotiations. Security isn't a commodity.
|
I say let it happen. If European Intel know about an imminent terrorist attack in the UK, we will inform them.
If the MI6 knows of some imminent attack, they will, or threaten to, keep quiet. And innocent Europeans will be blown up, when the terrorists could be stopped. What else can we as Europeans do?
Let it be on their conscience. Luckily for them, there likely will be no outrage, as the info will be top secret. (Until it leaks, which it will. Then let the British reflect on what they have become.)
|
On April 06 2017 01:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2017 01:18 bardtown wrote:On April 06 2017 00:39 Big J wrote:On April 05 2017 23:48 bardtown wrote:On April 05 2017 23:47 Passion wrote: Ah, people, people.
The UK has long been an obstruction to positive further development of the EU.
If they are happy to go, I am happy to see them leave, even though it's obviously a sad victory for populist leaders through the manipulation of the naive.
I think the shift in the balance of power might finally give the EU the chance to make the necessary next steps.
That said, I see no reason to not let them feel the price of their decision. I do recommend people here to look up some of the more sophisticated debates about the EU. The majority of people who voted for it are not supporters of populism but moderate Conservative/Labour voters. I can direct you to videos if you're interested. Not sure about the people, but from the discussions I remember the political supporters seem to be mainly liberterians who gamble on access to the European market out of European self-interest. Precisely for that reason the EU should play a harsh punishment trade war strategy until the UK returns to a sensible position, in which they don't try to abuse a common market as an even greater tax haven than what they are already. I don't think many of them would call themselves libertarians, but that's a pretty central economic point to the Leave argument, yes. The EU has a large trade surplus with the UK, so it is in their interest to maintain tariff free trade. The argument then goes that if the EU would hurt its own citizens to harm the UK in order to scare EU citizens into remaining in a political union then it's not a union but a protection racket. In which case, nobody with a backbone would want to stay anyway. Also, in the 'trade war' scenario you're proposing the EU loses calamitously, because, even putting the surplus to one side, there is hardly a bank in the EU that isn't reliant on capital/services from London. The idea that the EU is in a position to put banks at risk to prove a political point is pretty naive. The EU is grappling with multiple crises already. It would be in everyone's interest to maintain tariff free trade and the same tax levels over a trade war. That is off the table, the British strategy seems to be to hold the ground and suck mainland European businesses into their reach through extraordinary low levels of taxation. In that scenario it is in the EU's interest to make it impossible to use any of these advantages and suck out as much of the British economy as possible before the actual Brexit. Your views on who loses harder in a trade war are just the Trump views, which are strongly opposed by many economists. If you are the importer, imposing a tariff means you make your people pay the cost. The true question however is also, what is being exported and what other possibilities are there to redirect that trade. I believe the EU is in a vastly stronger position in that case, since I believe the European goods are much easier to redirect to the European market and other trade partners, than the UK's service based exports. Which is why those financial services seem to be playing very openly with moving away from the UK to keep their most valueable assets, their customer networks. Strange idea at the end. UK financial services are world competitive. EU goods are not, which is precisely why you impose such high tariffs on goods from outside the EU. In this 'trade war' scenario we wouldn't put tariffs on items that we couldn't source from elsewhere. But we can source the vast majority of our imports from the EU elsewhere - likely cheaper once we remove the common external tariffs. Europe's reliance on London banking is more fundamental than a bit of trade disruption, though. You have to consider what happens if an Italian bank goes under.
|
The only reason UK financial services are 'world competitive' is corruption and lack of regulation. Did you forget last time this 'world competitive' financial sector almost blew up the world economy?
EU goods are competitive enough. No one in the world drives British cars anymore, granted. But German and French cars are still quite popular world-wide. And yes, they aren't made completely in German or France anymore, but they are made inside the EU.
European reliance on London banking? After the financial crisis, which was so bad people in these London banks called their spouses to start buying random stuff because these financial experts weren't sure money would still be worth something at the end of the day, there was finally some movement to regulate again. But the UK stopped any true reform or safety mechanism, because they feared losing the competitive edge against the US, China, Singapore. So now we in Europe still have a toxic financial sector, thanks to the British. Reliant on London banking? Give me a break..
Your blind hate for EU knows no bounds, it seems.
|
The negotiation based on the concept that your services are so valuable that you can't be replaced has serious flaws. Especially on a national level.
|
Its like the famous last words of 99.99999% of employees that think they are too important and therefore have leway. Yeah, good people/arrangements leaving/ending hurts but if your business/policy is sound you'll get over it.
|
On April 06 2017 02:02 Philoctetes wrote: The only reason UK financial services are 'world competitive' is corruption and lack of regulation. Did you forget last time this 'world competitive' financial sector almost blew up the world economy?
EU goods are competitive enough. No one in the world drives British cars anymore, granted. But German and French cars are still quite popular world-wide. And yes, they aren't made completely in German or France anymore, but they are made inside the EU.
European reliance on London banking? After the financial crisis, which was so bad people in these London banks called their spouses to start buying random stuff because these financial experts weren't sure money would still be worth something at the end of the day, there was finally some movement to regulate again. But the UK stopped any true reform or safety mechanism, because they feared losing the competitive edge against the US, China, Singapore. So now we in Europe still have a toxic financial sector, thanks to the British. Reliant on London banking? Give me a break..
Your blind hate for EU knows no bounds, it seems. No hate on my side. The UK exports twice as many cars as France, by the way. Also, Jaguars, Bentleys and Rolls-Royces have a somewhat reasonable reputation abroad . Germany is on another level entirely, of course, but they have the advantage of a hugely undervalued currency.
@Plansix You can't just say these things and provide no foundation for them.
|
eh. not even a bigger premium on german cars would hinder their sales
|
Thats why Opel is doing so awesome? Not that i disagree in principle but... calm it down.
|
Well it is true that for premium car makers like Mercedes, BMW, Porsche price doesnt matter that match but for economy level? Sure it does.
|
Not to say that they don't make the best cars. It's their speciality and they definitely have world leading engineering. But being in the euro does make them much more competitive than they would be with their own currency.
|
On April 06 2017 02:45 bardtown wrote: Not to say that they don't make the best cars. It's their speciality and they definitely have world leading engineering. But being in the euro does make them much more competitive than they would be with their own currency.
Maybe you should have joined the Euro then, rather than exited the EU if the benefits for highly-developed countries are that great.
|
Man you're just speculating like a champ if you're trying to make that argument. No fucking body knows what might have happened in the 15 years we're having a currency union so I find it pretty baseless to assume and build arguments on such a shaky basis. Might be 5%, 10%, 40% more valuable but who knows?
Germany may receive a benefit because of a Euro that is undervalued when compared to a Germany exclusive currency, but it also gives back through EU funds. Whether enough is another question and I'm not able to answer it out of the blue, but my guess is not enough. The UK shit on that possiblity by keeping the Pound. So please, clean up your own mess in that sense.
Brexit might be good for both sides. I sincerely hope so.
In my book strenghtening the EU and setting up a specific, measurable, achievable, realistic targets for economic and social equality and stability for the next 50 years is a must for the EU to grow closer and for a union that can last. Here in this thread nobody is denying faults in the system, being accountability or fairness or whathaveyou. Pulling out, much like during sex, won't yield the result you're hoping to acheive. + Show Spoiler +sorry that's supposed to be a joke
|
On April 06 2017 02:28 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2017 02:02 Philoctetes wrote: The only reason UK financial services are 'world competitive' is corruption and lack of regulation. Did you forget last time this 'world competitive' financial sector almost blew up the world economy?
EU goods are competitive enough. No one in the world drives British cars anymore, granted. But German and French cars are still quite popular world-wide. And yes, they aren't made completely in German or France anymore, but they are made inside the EU.
European reliance on London banking? After the financial crisis, which was so bad people in these London banks called their spouses to start buying random stuff because these financial experts weren't sure money would still be worth something at the end of the day, there was finally some movement to regulate again. But the UK stopped any true reform or safety mechanism, because they feared losing the competitive edge against the US, China, Singapore. So now we in Europe still have a toxic financial sector, thanks to the British. Reliant on London banking? Give me a break..
Your blind hate for EU knows no bounds, it seems. No hate on my side. The UK exports twice as many cars as France, by the way. Also, Jaguars, Bentleys and Rolls-Royces have a somewhat reasonable reputation abroad  . Germany is on another level entirely, of course, but they have the advantage of a hugely undervalued currency. @Plansix You can't just say these things and provide no foundation for them.
That's odd. I checked the data and when I include Honda, Nissan and Toyota produced in the UK, they barely produce more than France. But I agree that Bentley and Rolls-Royce have somewhat of a reputation of being really terrible value for money. BTW, Rolls-Royce just reported a record loss. Car manifacturers like that are out of touch with the current world.
For sure the biggest beneficiary of the Euro was Germany. The whole system is set up so that all of the Eurozone has the monetary policy optimized for the German economy. It wrecked Spain, Greece, Italy, and others. And it will continue to do so, until the day Germany has to pay back the money they indirectly 'stole' by rigging the system. Or, a Neuro.
|
|
|
|