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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 755

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
April 05 2017 14:37 GMT
#15081
How is it in our 'selfish interest' to intervene, then? Our selfish interest to bring terrorism upon ourselves so that we can continue to spend money maintaining a territory that earns us nothing?
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7883 Posts
April 05 2017 14:37 GMT
#15082
On April 05 2017 23:32 bardtown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 23:26 Philoctetes wrote:
The UK should have been a honest broker in the sectarian war on the island of Ireland. Instead, they picked a side and escalated. Why? Because of their own selfish interests. Not for the good of the Irish.

This translates to "Let terrorists have free reign in your country, you horrible bigot!"

Northern Ireland is not a financial asset. It is one of the poorest parts of the UK and requires subsidies from the other constituent countries. We defend its people because they are our citizens. They identify as British and want to remain in the UK. Your suggestion is that we should just sit back and let terrorists murder them, or more accurately, us...

"Us" vs "the terrorists". At least that keeps things simple.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1379 Posts
April 05 2017 14:38 GMT
#15083
On April 05 2017 23:23 bardtown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 23:19 LightSpectra wrote:
On April 05 2017 22:54 bardtown wrote:
On April 05 2017 22:47 LightSpectra wrote:
Why do you think Irish unification would cause a war?

Because an overwhelming majority of the population do not even want a vote on unification at the moment. Contrary to popular belief, the UK does not hold any territory against the will of its population. Sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland was not just the IRA vs. the UK. There were militant unionist groups, too.

I'll just ignore that ranting lunatic...


All of the pre-Brexit polls do indeed show something like 70% in favor of unionism, that's true, but that number has dropped a lot since Brexit and even more since talks of a hard border have started.

Nobody involved is talking about a hard border. Quite the opposite. In fact, the most positive thing about the EU's appointment of Barnier is that he is very familiar with the Irish situation and has made it clear that he considers it a priority on a personal level. Same for David Davis.


It might be clear to you but it's a touchy and anxious subject right now, and nothing is really guaranteed.
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
Philoctetes
Profile Joined March 2017
Netherlands77 Posts
April 05 2017 14:43 GMT
#15084
On April 05 2017 23:37 bardtown wrote:
How is it in our 'selfish interest' to intervene, then? Our selfish interest to bring terrorism upon ourselves so that we can continue to spend money maintaining a territory that earns us nothing?



There are more types of 'assets' than just 'financial assets'. Also, I myself am not so sure why it was decided that it was so important to be so harsh and repressive in Northern Ireland. But obviously it was considered to be worth it. But you believe it was an act of charity because you cannot see how the UK government was motivated by self-interest?
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-05 14:46:58
April 05 2017 14:44 GMT
#15085
On April 05 2017 23:35 warding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 22:07 bardtown wrote:

On April 05 2017 22:04 warding wrote:
Is the plan for the UK to have its own regulations as substitute of CE marking? That would be a big cost on both importers (bad for consumers) and exporters (bad for UK competitiveness), for no perceptible advantage unless you believe British people are somehow better at creating regulations. It's a choice between lack of sovereignty and insularity.

Yes, we will make our own regulations. If you want to export into a certain market then you abide by the regulations of that market. But it's safe to say that the UK will be more liberal and deregulated than the EU so it won't be any cost to exporters who already import to the EU, for example. The UK is much more serious about capitalism and competitiveness than the EU as a whole, so you can rest assured that where possible money will be saved.

Lets consider you're a British entrepreneur who has invented a wearable device that measures the fart particles in the air - main use case being to alert pub users about unacceptable levels of indoor farting. It's got a Bluetooth module that connects to your phone. You want to commercialize it across Europe and the US. For the US you have to undergo FCC testing and spend $10k. For Europe you spend another $10k for CE marking. Because of Brexit, you now have to spend another $10k for compliance testing and certification for the UK market. If you're a larger company with greater compliance worries, those figures will go up because you will have to hire a separate law firm to make sure everything you're doing will comply with local regulations.

Because of this cost, smaller companies may forego introducing their products in the UK market. Larger companies will enter and make UK consumers pay for those prices. UK entrepreneurs will incur in larger costs vs other entrepreneurs, becoming less competitive. On top of that, the UK will have to create another bureaucracy to recreate regulations and standards, which is a cost to tax payers.

EU regulations aren't anti-capitalism or uncompetitive, they're actually quite sensible.

Anything that meets EU regulations will almost certainly meet UK regulations, because we will be less regulated in most areas. So if your product meets EU specifications then there's going to be a very high chance that it meets UK specifications. And then there will be many products that do not meet EU specs that will meet UK specs - ergo, more competition, lower prices, etc. Also, the vast majority of the UK economy is internal. They are all forced to follow EU specifications that we don't like. Their costs will be reduced by more moderate UK regulation.

On April 05 2017 23:43 Philoctetes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 23:37 bardtown wrote:
How is it in our 'selfish interest' to intervene, then? Our selfish interest to bring terrorism upon ourselves so that we can continue to spend money maintaining a territory that earns us nothing?



There are more types of 'assets' than just 'financial assets'. Also, I myself am not so sure why it was decided that it was so important to be so harsh and repressive in Northern Ireland. But obviously it was considered to be worth it. But you believe it was an act of charity because you cannot see how the UK government was motivated by self-interest?

It was self interest in the sense that we were protecting British citizens. That is all there is to it.
Passion
Profile Joined December 2003
Netherlands1486 Posts
April 05 2017 14:47 GMT
#15086
Ah, people, people.

The UK has long been an obstruction to positive further development of the EU.

If they are happy to go, I am happy to see them leave, even though it's obviously a sad victory for populist leaders through the manipulation of the naive.

I think the shift in the balance of power might finally give the EU the chance to make the necessary next steps.

That said, I see no reason to not let them feel the price of their decision.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-05 14:50:49
April 05 2017 14:48 GMT
#15087
On April 05 2017 23:47 Passion wrote:
Ah, people, people.

The UK has long been an obstruction to positive further development of the EU.

If they are happy to go, I am happy to see them leave, even though it's obviously a sad victory for populist leaders through the manipulation of the naive.

I think the shift in the balance of power might finally give the EU the chance to make the necessary next steps.

That said, I see no reason to not let them feel the price of their decision.

I do recommend people here to look up some of the more sophisticated debates about the EU. The majority of people who voted for it are not supporters of populism but moderate Conservative/Labour voters.

I can direct you to videos if you're interested.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
April 05 2017 14:49 GMT
#15088
Products made in Germany were / are more expensive and still are bought everywhere (but here lmao).
Price doesn't necessarily make you competitive. You buy cheap once, you buy at least twice.
passive quaranstream fan
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
April 05 2017 14:55 GMT
#15089
On April 05 2017 12:42 LegalLord wrote:
Word on the grapevine says Melenchon won the debate. Is that accurate?

won would an overstatement and i don't know how you can measure it, but he's the most well spoken of all of the candidate

he's a good orator, hard to deny that
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 05 2017 15:12 GMT
#15090
On April 05 2017 23:55 Makro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 12:42 LegalLord wrote:
Word on the grapevine says Melenchon won the debate. Is that accurate?

won would an overstatement and i don't know how you can measure it, but he's the most well spoken of all of the candidate

he's a good orator, hard to deny that

Hamon on the other hand, from what I saw and heard, seems like an annoying distraction no one really likes.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12154 Posts
April 05 2017 15:34 GMT
#15091
On policy alone they had to go with Hamon, Valls would have been an even bigger disaster for them. But his policies put him further to the left than Valls would have been and that makes him kind of redundant with Mélenchon (not really if you look at the facts but that's how it feels), which Mélenchon benefits from due to being a better speaker.
No will to live, no wish to die
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 05 2017 15:39 GMT
#15092
On April 05 2017 23:48 bardtown wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 23:47 Passion wrote:
Ah, people, people.

The UK has long been an obstruction to positive further development of the EU.

If they are happy to go, I am happy to see them leave, even though it's obviously a sad victory for populist leaders through the manipulation of the naive.

I think the shift in the balance of power might finally give the EU the chance to make the necessary next steps.

That said, I see no reason to not let them feel the price of their decision.

I do recommend people here to look up some of the more sophisticated debates about the EU. The majority of people who voted for it are not supporters of populism but moderate Conservative/Labour voters.

I can direct you to videos if you're interested.


Not sure about the people, but from the discussions I remember the political supporters seem to be mainly liberterians who gamble on access to the European market out of European self-interest. Precisely for that reason the EU should play a harsh punishment trade war strategy until the UK returns to a sensible position, in which they don't try to abuse a common market as an even greater tax haven than what they are already.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 05 2017 15:42 GMT
#15093
Russia and Belarus settled a gas dispute like 2-3 days ago by the way. Sputnik was the best I could find. Not a huge deal but it was a short falling-out between the two.

St. Petersburg bombing investigation basically seems to have gotten the main result. One bomber, two bombs, one bomb didn't go off and the current belief is that it was a phone-triggered bomb that was rendered useless because the phone in question was disabled by the govt before it went off. Other bomb was a suicide bomb. Likely ISIS and Caucasus mix of motives. Telegraph has a pretty good coverage here.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-05 16:03:00
April 05 2017 16:02 GMT
#15094
On April 06 2017 00:39 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 23:48 bardtown wrote:
On April 05 2017 23:47 Passion wrote:
Ah, people, people.

The UK has long been an obstruction to positive further development of the EU.

If they are happy to go, I am happy to see them leave, even though it's obviously a sad victory for populist leaders through the manipulation of the naive.

I think the shift in the balance of power might finally give the EU the chance to make the necessary next steps.

That said, I see no reason to not let them feel the price of their decision.

I do recommend people here to look up some of the more sophisticated debates about the EU. The majority of people who voted for it are not supporters of populism but moderate Conservative/Labour voters.

I can direct you to videos if you're interested.


Not sure about the people, but from the discussions I remember the political supporters seem to be mainly liberterians who gamble on access to the European market out of European self-interest. Precisely for that reason the EU should play a harsh punishment trade war strategy until the UK returns to a sensible position, in which they don't try to abuse a common market as an even greater tax haven than what they are already.

Overall there seem to be two possible 'survival' strategies for the EU:
- To make the cost of leaving so high that everyone stays out of sheer fear (current default strategy). Following this, it would be in the EU's self interest to punish the UK and take advantage of the stronger bargaining chip in the negotiations to the limit.

- The 'a la carte' model where member countries can pick and choose which EU bits they want. On one hand, it makes the populist case for leaving the EU harder - since there are aspects of the EU that everyone likes, if there's unhappiness with the EU then why not just pick the parts people don't like. Then that forces a debate on actual specific standards/programmes/policies until everyone comes to the conclusion that the vast majority of a country's participation in the EU is a very obvious net positive.

A couple of issues ago The Economist made a strong case for option number 2. I'm just not sure how easy it would be to adapt to it from the current model.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
April 05 2017 16:04 GMT
#15095
On April 06 2017 00:12 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 23:55 Makro wrote:
On April 05 2017 12:42 LegalLord wrote:
Word on the grapevine says Melenchon won the debate. Is that accurate?

won would an overstatement and i don't know how you can measure it, but he's the most well spoken of all of the candidate

he's a good orator, hard to deny that

Hamon on the other hand, from what I saw and heard, seems like an annoying distraction no one really likes.

Imo Hamon made the game-ending mistake of not going forward with a clear and ballsy universal income plan. Trying to transform the election into a referendum for or against universal income was probably his only chance at getting past 10 or 11%.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
warding
Profile Joined August 2005
Portugal2394 Posts
April 05 2017 16:09 GMT
#15096
On April 05 2017 23:44 bardtown wrote:
Anything that meets EU regulations will almost certainly meet UK regulations, because we will be less regulated in most areas. So if your product meets EU specifications then there's going to be a very high chance that it meets UK specifications. And then there will be many products that do not meet EU specs that will meet UK specs - ergo, more competition, lower prices, etc. Also, the vast majority of the UK economy is internal. They are all forced to follow EU specifications that we don't like. Their costs will be reduced by more moderate UK regulation.

It's not just about the cost of making changes to a product, it's the cost of hiring lawyers and certification companies to do the testing and the paperwork. Unless you adopt the policy that CE marking is accepted in UK territory, you'll have those costs.

it's also a weird notion for me that the UK would be more liberal than the rest of Europe on regulation - the land of health and safety paranoia. I did my masters in England and have the opposite notion. More important than liberal vs strict regulating is the avoidance of regulatory capture, and I feel there's a strong case to make that larger institutions that have to represent a greater plurality of interests are more insulated from that than governments of individual countries. Ie. special corporate interests in the UK are more likely to influence local and national regulations in their favor than they are to influence EU regulations.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-05 16:26:59
April 05 2017 16:18 GMT
#15097
On April 06 2017 00:39 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 23:48 bardtown wrote:
On April 05 2017 23:47 Passion wrote:
Ah, people, people.

The UK has long been an obstruction to positive further development of the EU.

If they are happy to go, I am happy to see them leave, even though it's obviously a sad victory for populist leaders through the manipulation of the naive.

I think the shift in the balance of power might finally give the EU the chance to make the necessary next steps.

That said, I see no reason to not let them feel the price of their decision.

I do recommend people here to look up some of the more sophisticated debates about the EU. The majority of people who voted for it are not supporters of populism but moderate Conservative/Labour voters.

I can direct you to videos if you're interested.


Not sure about the people, but from the discussions I remember the political supporters seem to be mainly liberterians who gamble on access to the European market out of European self-interest. Precisely for that reason the EU should play a harsh punishment trade war strategy until the UK returns to a sensible position, in which they don't try to abuse a common market as an even greater tax haven than what they are already.

I don't think many of them would call themselves libertarians, but that's a pretty central economic point to the Leave argument, yes. The EU has a large trade surplus with the UK, so it is in their interest to maintain tariff free trade. The argument then goes that if the EU would hurt its own citizens to harm the UK in order to scare EU citizens into remaining in a political union then it's not a union but a protection racket. In which case, nobody with a backbone would want to stay anyway. Also, in the 'trade war' scenario you're proposing the EU loses calamitously, because, even putting the surplus to one side, there is hardly a bank in the EU that isn't reliant on capital/services from London. The idea that the EU is in a position to put banks at risk to prove a political point is pretty naive. The EU is grappling with multiple crises already.

On April 06 2017 01:09 warding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2017 23:44 bardtown wrote:
Anything that meets EU regulations will almost certainly meet UK regulations, because we will be less regulated in most areas. So if your product meets EU specifications then there's going to be a very high chance that it meets UK specifications. And then there will be many products that do not meet EU specs that will meet UK specs - ergo, more competition, lower prices, etc. Also, the vast majority of the UK economy is internal. They are all forced to follow EU specifications that we don't like. Their costs will be reduced by more moderate UK regulation.

It's not just about the cost of making changes to a product, it's the cost of hiring lawyers and certification companies to do the testing and the paperwork. Unless you adopt the policy that CE marking is accepted in UK territory, you'll have those costs.

it's also a weird notion for me that the UK would be more liberal than the rest of Europe on regulation - the land of health and safety paranoia. I did my masters in England and have the opposite notion. More important than liberal vs strict regulating is the avoidance of regulatory capture, and I feel there's a strong case to make that larger institutions that have to represent a greater plurality of interests are more insulated from that than governments of individual countries. Ie. special corporate interests in the UK are more likely to influence local and national regulations in their favor than they are to influence EU regulations.

That might be true if anybody in the EU cared about the opinions of individual nation states. The regulation pours through whether people like it or not. If it didn't - and it was a lowest common denominator system like you're implying - then the UK wouldn't have anything to complain about.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10686 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-05 16:23:08
April 05 2017 16:22 GMT
#15098
Probably much less naive as the UK's decision to brexit/end free trade/movement.
Sounds extremly risky but well, there you go cheerleading it.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 05 2017 16:27 GMT
#15099
On April 06 2017 01:02 warding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2017 00:39 Big J wrote:
On April 05 2017 23:48 bardtown wrote:
On April 05 2017 23:47 Passion wrote:
Ah, people, people.

The UK has long been an obstruction to positive further development of the EU.

If they are happy to go, I am happy to see them leave, even though it's obviously a sad victory for populist leaders through the manipulation of the naive.

I think the shift in the balance of power might finally give the EU the chance to make the necessary next steps.

That said, I see no reason to not let them feel the price of their decision.

I do recommend people here to look up some of the more sophisticated debates about the EU. The majority of people who voted for it are not supporters of populism but moderate Conservative/Labour voters.

I can direct you to videos if you're interested.


Not sure about the people, but from the discussions I remember the political supporters seem to be mainly liberterians who gamble on access to the European market out of European self-interest. Precisely for that reason the EU should play a harsh punishment trade war strategy until the UK returns to a sensible position, in which they don't try to abuse a common market as an even greater tax haven than what they are already.

Overall there seem to be two possible 'survival' strategies for the EU:
- To make the cost of leaving so high that everyone stays out of sheer fear (current default strategy). Following this, it would be in the EU's self interest to punish the UK and take advantage of the stronger bargaining chip in the negotiations to the limit.

- The 'a la carte' model where member countries can pick and choose which EU bits they want. On one hand, it makes the populist case for leaving the EU harder - since there are aspects of the EU that everyone likes, if there's unhappiness with the EU then why not just pick the parts people don't like. Then that forces a debate on actual specific standards/programmes/policies until everyone comes to the conclusion that the vast majority of a country's participation in the EU is a very obvious net positive.

A couple of issues ago The Economist made a strong case for option number 2. I'm just not sure how easy it would be to adapt to it from the current model.

First one should work if you're willing to abandon pretenses and just tell people they don't really have a choice about the EU. Next time someone bitches they should order in the troops.

Second one kind of undermines the entire purpose of having a union. That could all be accomplished with little more than a few trade agreements that not all countries are willing to sign onto.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-05 16:31:00
April 05 2017 16:29 GMT
#15100
On April 06 2017 01:22 Velr wrote:
Probably much less naive as the UK's decision to brexit/end free trade/movement.
Sounds extremly risky but well, there you go cheerleading it.

By 'end free trade' I assume you mean extend free trade and end subjecting the UK to EU protectionism. It shows the extent to which our identity has been diluted by EU membership that people don't realise the UK is and always has been the foremost proponent of free trade in Europe if not the world.
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