EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 734
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On March 27 2017 15:46 Big J wrote: So what are the chances that SPD doesn't sell out in Saarland? what do you consider "sell out" ? Of course they will participate in the coalition with the CDU. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10834 Posts
This wasn't the state for the SPD to win from the get go. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 27 2017 17:54 mahrgell wrote: what do you consider "sell out" ? Of course they will participate in the coalition with the CDU. If you are going into the negotiations with no backup plan, then you have to sell out. The right has a majority, let them rule and fail, before it's the extremists that are in the majority. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On March 27 2017 21:31 Big J wrote: If you are going into the negotiations with no backup plan, then you have to sell out. The right has a majority, let them rule and fail, before it's the extremists that are in the majority. What the hell are you talking about? The previous ruling coalition was CDU+SPD. Up until 2 weeks ago everything was indicating that exactly this will continue and the SPD was fully accepting this and preparing for this. Only then some polls suddenly suggested there might be a glimmer of a chance that the SPD might lead a government. But exactly this old coalition was reelected. The overwhelming majority in Saarland stated in various poll that they want this coalition to continue and are happy about their work. And at last there is also absolutely no possible coalition except CDU+SPD. And tbf, the CDU is way closer to the SPD than the Linke is. This isn't the US, where parties go full rampage when they lose an election. There is indeed something called "political responsibility" here. | ||
zatic
Zurich15359 Posts
On March 27 2017 21:31 Big J wrote: If you are going into the negotiations with no backup plan, then you have to sell out. The right has a majority, let them rule and fail, before it's the extremists that are in the majority. Huh? The CDU has 40%, to get a majority they have to join a coalition with either the SPD or the Linke. Guess what's more likely. What do you mean by "no backup plan"? The SPD can still walk if the CDU doesn't give them anything. In a CDU minority government the combined left alone would outvote them, so the CDU absolutely has something to lose going into the negotiations. Coalition negotiations will show who drives a harder bargain. But this is standard procedure and has nothing to do with "selling out". | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 27 2017 21:40 mahrgell wrote: What the hell are you talking about? The previous ruling coalition was CDU+SPD. Up until 2 weeks ago everything was indicating that exactly this will continue and the SPD was fully accepting this and preparing for this. Only then some polls suddenly suggested there might be a glimmer of a chance that the SPD might lead a government. But exactly this old coalition was reelected. The overwhelming majority in Saarland stated in various poll that they want this coalition to continue and are happy about their work. And at last there is also absolutely no possible coalition except CDU+SPD. And tbf, the CDU is way closer to the SPD than the Linke is. This isn't the US, where parties go full rampage when they lose an election. There is indeed something called "political responsibility" here. CDU+AfD is possible and they are far closer politically than CDU+SPD. Also political responsibility does not force you into a coalition, just make it a free for all parliament, as parliaments are supposed to be. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On March 27 2017 21:54 Big J wrote: CDU+AfD is possible and they are far closer politically than CDU+SPD. Also political responsibility does not force you into a coalition, just make it a free for all parliament, as parliaments are supposed to be. You are trolling now, right? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 27 2017 21:54 Big J wrote: CDU+AfD is possible and they are far closer politically than CDU+SPD. Also political responsibility does not force you into a coalition, just make it a free for all parliament, as parliaments are supposed to be. Fairly sure that German social democrats are closer to Christian democracy than to the far-right. Even in France, where our right is virtually indistinguishable from the far-right on various subjects, they are closer to the right-wing of social democracy when it comes to the general principles of economic policies, EU, etc. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1968 Posts
Maybe they can coalesce with the NPD too while they're at it. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6261 Posts
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LightSpectra
United States1968 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15359 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 28 2017 00:10 RvB wrote: Why is that funny? There have been extreme right parties either in or supporting a government in a couple of countries. Not sure if public opinion in Germany is ready for it but it's not that strange of a thought. You can't begin to imagine how impossible this is. The moment the CDU makes an AfD coalition they'll drop 10+%. This will not work here. They are worlds apart. "Just a right wing party" isn't a concept that exists in Germany. I doubt any new right-wing party will ever be considered to be truly democratic. The Josef Strauß(prominent Conservative politician) idea of "No legitimate political party can exist right of the CSU" is still valid. Also the Saarland AfD , without hyperbole, is basically far-right extremists and neo-nazis | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 28 2017 00:10 RvB wrote: Why is that funny? There have been extreme right parties either in or supporting a government in a couple of countries. Not sure if public opinion in Germany is ready for it but it's not that strange of a thought. It is also a very clever way of dealing with them. All they want is being against "the establishment". So you try to integrate them. The worst way to deal with populists is taking over all their agenda, but behaving like they are some kind of alien force. That is pretty much what is happening in Germany at the moment though in the CSU. So you get AfD politics and a growing AfD. If you would form a coalition with them while they are small, you could easily handle them. AfD's entire platform is nothing but anti-Merkel populist crap. Coalescing with Merkel makes absolutely no sense. You attack those the most, whose supporters you have best chances taking over. Someone in favor of an open society won't vote for AfD, but a very conservative voter may get the message that "Merkel is failing" and "the conservatives are simply not what they are supposed to be". You can't begin to imagine how impossible this is. The moment the CDU makes an AfD coalition they'll drop 10+%. This will not work here. They are worlds apart. Exactly, which is why the SPD would have a very strong position if they announced, they don't have to be part of a coalition. The CDU has 2 other options, noone can hold the SPD responsible for the CDU failing to compromise with Die Linke and AfD. That would be a reasonable public stance to go into negotiations. "Just a right wing party" isn't a concept that exists in Germany. I doubt any new right-wing party will ever be considered to be truly democratic. The Josef Strauß(prominent Conservative politician) idea of "No legitimate political party can exist right of the CSU" is still valid. Also the Saarland AfD , without hyperbole, is basically far-right extremists and neo-nazis The Strauß doctrin is double-edged. On the one hand, it is the wish that there is no party right of the CSU. On the other hand it means that the CSU should be a very right-wing party to not leave any room for others, even if that means the CSU and CDU would have to part ways. (there is a historical CDU/CSU context between Strauß and Kohl behind this statement) | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 28 2017 02:07 Big J wrote: It is also a very clever way of dealing with them. All they want is being against "the establishment". So you try to integrate them. They would simply refuse and you would look like a fool for the proposal. ^ | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1968 Posts
On March 28 2017 02:07 Big J wrote: You attack those the most, whose supporters you have best chances taking over. Someone in favor of an open society won't vote for AfD, but a very conservative voter may get the message that "Merkel is failing" and "the conservatives are simply not what they are supposed to be". Why the fuck would Merkel cooperate with a party whose sole message is "Merkel is failing Germany"? Doesn't that vindicate their position, ergo directly undercutting her own? Why the fuck would people whose only platform is "Merkel is failing Germany" betray their voters by doing literally the opposite of the one-and-only thing they are voted in on? | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On March 28 2017 02:07 Big J wrote: The Strauß doctrin is double-edged. On the one hand, it is the wish that there is no party right of the CSU. On the other hand it means that the CSU should be a very right-wing party to not leave any room for others, even if that means the CSU and CDU would have to part ways. (there is a historical CDU/CSU context between Strauß and Kohl behind this statement) There is a very big difference between the CSU and any new right-wing party. Political details aside, the CSU does not protrait itself as meta-political. Every new right wing party in Germany has placed itself above 'the established political system' and toyed with revolutionary tones. (AfD: "we'll sweep established parties out of the parliaments"). This is the defining feature of anti-democratic parties in post-war Germany. The CSU does not fall at all into this category even if they sometimes taunt with AfD like positions, the tone is completely different. Nobody votes for the CSU because he has a right-wing system overthrow in mind. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
BUDAPEST (AFP) - Hungary said Monday it was ready to begin detaining asylum-seekers in camps on its southern border with Serbia after passing a law this month that has drawn criticism from rights groups and the UN. Hungary's parliament approved on March 7 the systematic detention of all asylum-seekers in camps on the border composed of converted shipping containers. The move was part of policies by hardline anti-immigration Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban, a strong admirer of US President Donald Trump. From Tuesday, asylum-seekers entering Hungary as well as those currently in the country will be confined in camps at the its southern borders while their applications are processed. "The border protection agencies are fully prepared for the entry into force of the reinforced legal border closure on March 28," said a statement by the interior ministry. "The police, the defence forces and the Immigration and Asylum Office have made the necessary preparations for the implementation of the required measure," said the statement. The ministry said the purpose of the restrictions is to "prevent migrants with an unclear status from moving freely around the territory of the country and the European Union, and to thereby reduce the security risk of migration". According to the government 324 shipping container homes have been installed at two separate locations called "transit zones" built into a fence that Hungary erected along the 175-kilometre-(110-mile)-long border in 2015. EU member Hungary previously systematically detained all asylum applicants but suspended the practise in 2013 under pressure from Brussels, the UN refugee agency and the European Court of Human Rights. Rights groups like Amnesty International have condemned the new rules for failing to meet Hungary's international obligations to asylum-seekers. Source | ||
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