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On March 26 2017 22:26 xM(Z wrote:
come on men, what's wrong with you?; Erdogan can't officially stop the EU accession talks without the express approval of turkish citizens.
his rhetoric aside, he needs that formal go ahead from the turks.
The talks are dead and have been for a while.
There is nothing to stop.
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On March 26 2017 22:46 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2017 22:26 xM(Z wrote:
come on men, what's wrong with you?; Erdogan can't officially stop the EU accession talks without the express approval of turkish citizens.
his rhetoric aside, he needs that formal go ahead from the turks. I wish we would bring Turkey in with the conditions of approving the European Court of Justice decisions and the standard EU laws and regulations agreed upon previously (which not all have ratified yet). Either they have to ignore the court, the rules or leave again to keep current behaviours. Showing he doesn't want to join on the same conditions as other countries. That looks like the best solution for me since I am pro expanding the EU. Destabilising a burgeoning dictatorship on the borders at the same time. well, that failed with the coup(but you could always try again i guess  ); add the rapprochement with the russians and all of a sudden you have to deal with an Erdogan with a new set of balls(Erdogan feeling fucked by you on Syria doesn't help either).
so, you're stuck with trying to appeal to the turks(which has a low success rate now) or weather the storm(drag the talks but don't stop them until a miracle happens and Erdogan loses power).
@Gorsameth - you're projecting Erdogan "fails" onto turks; until they vote for that end of talks with the EU, you have no argument.
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Schulzhypetrain just derailed at the first voting in the Saarland.
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On March 27 2017 01:16 Clonester wrote:
Schulzhypetrain just derailed at the first voting in the Saarland.
only people not involved could believe that Schulz would win the election for the SPD in Saarland.
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On March 27 2017 01:15 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2017 22:46 Yurie wrote:On March 26 2017 22:26 xM(Z wrote:
come on men, what's wrong with you?; Erdogan can't officially stop the EU accession talks without the express approval of turkish citizens.
his rhetoric aside, he needs that formal go ahead from the turks. I wish we would bring Turkey in with the conditions of approving the European Court of Justice decisions and the standard EU laws and regulations agreed upon previously (which not all have ratified yet). Either they have to ignore the court, the rules or leave again to keep current behaviours. Showing he doesn't want to join on the same conditions as other countries. That looks like the best solution for me since I am pro expanding the EU. Destabilising a burgeoning dictatorship on the borders at the same time. well, that failed with the coup(but you could always try again i guess ); add the rapprochement with the russians and all of a sudden you have to deal with an Erdogan with a new set of balls(Erdogan feeling fucked by you on Syria doesn't help either). so, you're stuck with trying to appeal to the turks(which has a low success rate now) or weather the storm(drag the talks but don't stop them until a miracle happens and Erdogan loses power). @Gorsameth - you're projecting Erdogan "fails" onto turks; until they vote for that end of talks with the EU, you have no argument.
The man threatens the safety of Europeans across the world and nobody says a thing. Short of its own revolution, Turkey is a lost cause for the next few decades. Anyone who believes they still have a chance of joining the EU is either insane or stupid.
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On March 26 2017 21:30 farvacola wrote:
lastpuritan is one of those people who thinks the Armenian Genocide didn't really happen and is a plot against Turkey, so yeah.....
It's a known fact that some of the Ottoman/German officers plotted the mass killing of thousands of Armenians and bribed Kurdish tribes to do the heavy work in return of today's Kurdistan lands. Please don't try to portray me as if I say no Armenians died.
All I say is there ain't a single evidence to prove Istanbul officials ordered them to do so. Not even a telegraph, no written or verbal order from high commands. The Talat Pasha telegrams, you (sorry if not you) posted last time we discussed this, was proven fake. "the ottoman empire had yearbooks in which all the government officials were included. examination of these yearbooks has demonstrated that there was no official named naim bey in aleppo during the years in question." - kamuran gurun, the armenian file, p.238
However, the guy who killed Talat Pasha is an Armenian hero with a monument today, he was freed by German court because judges felt so sorry to hear his story, what a democracy! His son later on gave an interview to the Independent and confessed that his father lied to the judges about his sisters massacred by Ottomans. He never had sisters.
I'm not gonna argue the Armenian genocide case here again and again, because all I get from internet people "NO THERE'S GENOCIDE, WE ALL KNOW IT!". I wonder how many people really cares to investigate and read archives as I did throughout my academic career. Do you really believe that United Kingdom and the U.S didn't recognize it because they needed Turkey that much? They didn't do it till now because they already held courts and found no evidence. I grew tired to post American investigator reports with their no evidence verdict or British court reports. For gods sake, Ottoman officials were captives of Britain at that time, they had all the Istanbul archives and courts were fair. At that time French even stressed that courts might not be fair because Brits got the archives and were able to punish Ottomans however they want, so they attended as inspectors. How on earth a government decides to put an end to a race but skips her capital and whole western Turkey, those people in the west were less Armenians? Hitler had tremendous amounts of orders and speeches that he states he wants to terminate a race, unlike Ottomans, they had no systematic plan or schedule to destroy Armenians.
However, I really do want Turkey to needlessly say sorry even though it wasn't Turkish regime but Ottoman, it wasn't our freshly founded republic or none of the of those officers were part of the Ataturk's government. We can still say sorry about mass killings, build a huge monument, and pray.
On March 26 2017 16:43 Elizar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2017 16:11 lastpuritan wrote:On March 26 2017 15:25 Acrofales wrote:
Well, if Turkey started with admitting the Armenian genocide happened and apologize, that would be a pretty huge deal... There was a Turkish official on the TV years ago from a ministry I can't recall now, he was saying "when you google genocides, you only see recognized Nazi, Soviet, Ottoman ones but none of the American, British, French ones as a part of a history whitewashing campaign" and then he stressed around 5 millions of Turks have been massacred systematically with a politic goal on Balkans, which we hear nothing about them from the same EU countries that push Turkey over the Armenian genocide.I think this is the hidden Turkish motive. Her imperial past will always, naturally, clash with the European imperial past on history. And both sides will keep on believing their stories. Or you could simply google "Genocides in history" YOURSELF. Do it. I just did it. Guess what, there are the things mentioned your Turkish official didn´t (want?) to see. Yes, you have to read it aloud yourself, to actually hear it, but relying on politicians for complete information is naive.
what are we discussing then, you can google armenian genocide any time without turkish recognition if that's the case. but I'm assuming we mutually expect something more honest from the turkish governments and the west itself. I don't give a single f about my turkish ancestors who lived in balkans and totally annihilated by western forces, because there wasn't even word called genocide back then, it was a dirty war tactic to cleanse hostile "elements."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims
funny it's called "persecution". however, they're long gone, they have been massacred and numbers were millions. their killers are dead, the regimes who ordered to kill them collapsed or changed, some countries don't even exist anymore. there's nothing west can actually do about it, unless recognizing it. but I don't even care that, because I know it won't happen. that said, shamelessly lecturing turkey and using armenian genocide as a politic leverage over turkey like germans did while ago is a different page.
On March 26 2017 21:03 bardtown wrote:
Heard it here first, folks. Turkey did nothing wrong.
It's not racism to not want free movement between the UK and Turkey. Turkey is a relatively poor country and Turks in the rest of the EU have not integrated at all.
Deal with your problems rather than blaming them on everyone else and playing the victim.
It's not turkish fault if they haven't integrated due to racism Germany had towards them, and they weren't educated people but workers, remember? I hear newer generations integrates very well in Germany, if I were a Brit I'd be thinking Bangladeshi or Pakistani invasion of London, not the Turks. They fooled you hard in that campaign. Also, who told you I'm playing victim, I'm very well pleased Turkey will not be Merkelized. Hope we can get more people like Trump and end this liberal era quickly.
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I'm going to give Erdogan the benefit of the doubt and assume he doesn't really want to hold that referendum and said that he wants to hold it to please his nationalistic supporters in Turkey. Everyone else will see it as acting like a spoiled child who wants something and says it didn't actually want it when it's told it won't get it. He is (or at least should be) aware of that but he just doesn't care, he needs to show his supporters he's a strong leader who won't let the nazi westerners humiliate his country.
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arguing for a separation of "the turks and their threats" from "Erdogan and his threats" addressed at EU to a few liberals feels weird to me so i won't.
i remember some of you vigorously and erectly, arguing tooth and nail, were defending "THAT ONE FUKING (different/special)GUY" in all arguments now you're flushing a whole country down the shitter because of that one guy is ... just weird.
sure, all the turks might be Erdogan incarnated but let them vote on it.
(also, it's not only about joining the EU but about not breaking all attempts at it; something is better than nothing)
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On March 27 2017 02:41 xM(Z wrote:
arguing for a separation of "the turks and their threats" from "Erdogan and his threats" addressed at EU to a few liberals feels weird to me so i won't.
i remember some of you vigorously and erectly, arguing tooth and nail, were defending "THAT ONE FUKING (different/special)GUY" in all arguments now you're flushing a whole country down the shitter because of that one guy is ... just weird.
sure, all the turks might be Erdogan incarnated but let them vote on it.
(also, it's not only about joining the EU but about not breaking all attempts at it; something is better than nothing)
What are you even...
No one says that (some) Turks don't want to join the EU. We are saying that their opinion is not really relevant because their country is led by a dictator who's actions make joining the EU impossible.
When Erdogan is gone and civil liberties and rights have been restored Turkey is happy to seek a renew of talks.
But having a referendum now when Erdogan is never going to work towards meeting the requirements set forth for every nation that wishes to join the EU is pointless.
Its a dumb publicity stunt. nothing more.
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ugh, justifying/negligence of a genocide because others happened that arn't talked about from your perspective is on the same level as denying the holocaust.
get over it and admit it.
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On March 27 2017 02:32 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2017 21:03 bardtown wrote:
Heard it here first, folks. Turkey did nothing wrong.
It's not racism to not want free movement between the UK and Turkey. Turkey is a relatively poor country and Turks in the rest of the EU have not integrated at all.
Deal with your problems rather than blaming them on everyone else and playing the victim. It's not turkish fault if they haven't integrated due to racism Germany had towards them, and they weren't educated people but workers, remember? I hear newer generations integrates very well in Germany, if I were a Brit I'd be thinking Bangladeshi or Pakistani invasion of London, not the Turks. They fooled you hard in that campaign. Also, who told you I'm playing victim, I'm very well pleased Turkey will not be Merkelized. Hope we can get more people like Trump and end this liberal era quickly.
Pathetic. Keep enjoying your life as far away from Turkey as you can possibly get.
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On March 27 2017 02:57 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2017 02:32 lastpuritan wrote:On March 26 2017 21:03 bardtown wrote:
Heard it here first, folks. Turkey did nothing wrong.
It's not racism to not want free movement between the UK and Turkey. Turkey is a relatively poor country and Turks in the rest of the EU have not integrated at all.
Deal with your problems rather than blaming them on everyone else and playing the victim. It's not turkish fault if they haven't integrated due to racism Germany had towards them, and they weren't educated people but workers, remember? I hear newer generations integrates very well in Germany, if I were a Brit I'd be thinking Bangladeshi or Pakistani invasion of London, not the Turks. They fooled you hard in that campaign. Also, who told you I'm playing victim, I'm very well pleased Turkey will not be Merkelized. Hope we can get more people like Trump and end this liberal era quickly. Pathetic. Keep enjoying your life as far away from Turkey as you can possibly get.
It's still a nice place to visit for holidays and fresh food, come on!
You can't live this life without falling in love with İstanbul.
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On March 27 2017 03:23 lastpuritan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2017 02:57 bardtown wrote:On March 27 2017 02:32 lastpuritan wrote:On March 26 2017 21:03 bardtown wrote:
Heard it here first, folks. Turkey did nothing wrong.
It's not racism to not want free movement between the UK and Turkey. Turkey is a relatively poor country and Turks in the rest of the EU have not integrated at all.
Deal with your problems rather than blaming them on everyone else and playing the victim. It's not turkish fault if they haven't integrated due to racism Germany had towards them, and they weren't educated people but workers, remember? I hear newer generations integrates very well in Germany, if I were a Brit I'd be thinking Bangladeshi or Pakistani invasion of London, not the Turks. They fooled you hard in that campaign. Also, who told you I'm playing victim, I'm very well pleased Turkey will not be Merkelized. Hope we can get more people like Trump and end this liberal era quickly. Pathetic. Keep enjoying your life as far away from Turkey as you can possibly get. It's still a nice place to visit for holidays and fresh food, come on! You can't live this life without falling in love with İstanbul.
No doubt. It's a beautiful country and Istanbul is a great city with incredible history. But politically Turkey is a mess, and I can't help but feel a little contempt for people who leave for rich, liberal countries and then insult them while defending the complete mess they have back home. Germany and the Netherlands are easily among the most tolerant countries in the world. If you're not integrating successfully there, look to yourselves.
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The controversy about the Armenian-Assyrian-et al. genocides isn't about which particular member of the Ottoman or Turkish governments were responsible, but rather that the modern Turkish government vastly downplays the extent of the atrocities and refuses to even use the word 'genocide'.
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There's been an interview with Erdogan supporters here in Germany at a pro Erdogan demonstration and when confronted with the restrictions to be put in place in Turkey and the supposed enactment for Turkish citizens in Germany people were like "No, I'm not OK with that".
yeah, right.
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On March 27 2017 03:39 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2017 03:23 lastpuritan wrote:On March 27 2017 02:57 bardtown wrote:On March 27 2017 02:32 lastpuritan wrote:On March 26 2017 21:03 bardtown wrote:
Heard it here first, folks. Turkey did nothing wrong.
It's not racism to not want free movement between the UK and Turkey. Turkey is a relatively poor country and Turks in the rest of the EU have not integrated at all.
Deal with your problems rather than blaming them on everyone else and playing the victim. It's not turkish fault if they haven't integrated due to racism Germany had towards them, and they weren't educated people but workers, remember? I hear newer generations integrates very well in Germany, if I were a Brit I'd be thinking Bangladeshi or Pakistani invasion of London, not the Turks. They fooled you hard in that campaign. Also, who told you I'm playing victim, I'm very well pleased Turkey will not be Merkelized. Hope we can get more people like Trump and end this liberal era quickly. Pathetic. Keep enjoying your life as far away from Turkey as you can possibly get. It's still a nice place to visit for holidays and fresh food, come on! You can't live this life without falling in love with İstanbul. No doubt. It's a beautiful country and Istanbul is a great city with incredible history. But politically Turkey is a mess, and I can't help but feel a little contempt for people who leave for rich, liberal countries and then insult them while defending the complete mess they have back home. Germany and the Netherlands are easily among the most tolerant countries in the world. If you're not integrating successfully there, look to yourselves.
Not in my case. Nothing has changed in my ordinary life. Turkey is actually a decent country if you have a job and don't watch TV. Food is cheap and fresh, people are warm, bills are okay, Istanbul is no different than most of the other European cities with its night life etc. It just starts irritating when you turn on your TV and see your charlatan politicians.
But as I age, after visiting Europe and some other parts of the world, I've come to a decision that I love the US most. I feel like the whole EU continent, including the Turkish part is very cringy, old and not earthly. It feels like this is the real earth. 
Additionally, I not only escaped middle east where we border ISIS and PKK, I also escaped Europe and her direct influence over less powerful countries. The racism I faced in Europe was somehow higher than in US. My family members in Germany suffered a lot of racism even though they are fluent in German and have no Islamic life. The only racism I suffered in here came from a neighborhood gang because they thought we're too white to get along with imo lol. (we're blondes) But anyways, never suffered racism on a level that it hurts my economy. You can earn lots of money here whereas you're limited in my former continent.
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Interesting election in the Saarland with the CDU coming out very strong at 40%, 5% up. Afd barely makes it in with 6% under-performing polls repeatedly now.
Next election is NRW, if this trend holds then I guess it's fairly likely that the AfD will drift down to fringe party status again, at least in West Germany and that the Schulz hype is not as strong as expected.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
The Schulz hype seemed like one of those "not as much of a landslide as expected" hypes. Which generates a lot of noise but is also meaningless.
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Germany3128 Posts
On March 27 2017 05:09 LegalLord wrote:
The Schulz hype seemed like one of those "not as much of a landslide as expected" hypes. Which generates a lot of noise but is also meaningless.
Hard to say just yet. May be a bit premature to pronounce the hype dead. Saarland is probably one of the hardest states of Germany to gain voters and the least representive state (for the Bundestagswahlen) because AKK is reeeeally popular in Saarland and it also only has 800.000 inhabitants. Yet the Schulz hype brought the SPD to nearly the result they got in the last elections in Saarland. 3 Months ago, before Schulz, polls had them 5-6% lower. It would have been a surprise if the SPD would have been able to defeat a Kramp-Karrenbauer led CDU and yet they are only 2 seats short to form a coalition with Die Linke.
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The bigger problem is that the CDU won over twice as many non-voters as the SPD and that many of the SPD votes were former left & green voters.
It's a little bit of a zero sum game to siphon votes of the left for Schulz if he really wants a different government. If he only manages to consolidate the left-wing votes the best thing coming out of it is a very marginal victory and another grand coalition which will probably not look much different than this one.
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EPT
