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On March 21 2017 02:37 Nyxisto wrote:
It's American terminology, Chomsky likes to call himself left-libertarian frequently.
Liberalism isn't a good antonym here because it's often associated with negative freedoms. 'left-libertarianism' is basically just anarchism. Or Orwell-ish socialism (as in the guy, not the book)
But those negative freedoms are mostly what the questions were about. Support the right for gay marriage and abortion (choice) requires a government that protects those rights, and not anarchy (of whatever flavour). Freedom to do something is not merely freedom from government interference, it is freedom to actually do it, which sometimes requires a government to actually step in and protect you from others that might want to stop you from doing that.
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At the end of day, my experience tells me that the preservation of social liberties requires the presence of robust government institutions ready to defend them, and that just doesn't jive with much of any of what Libertarianism is about lol.
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On March 21 2017 02:51 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2017 02:37 Nyxisto wrote:
It's American terminology, Chomsky likes to call himself left-libertarian frequently.
Liberalism isn't a good antonym here because it's often associated with negative freedoms. 'left-libertarianism' is basically just anarchism. Or Orwell-ish socialism (as in the guy, not the book) But those negative freedoms are mostly what the questions were about. Support the right for gay marriage and abortion (choice) requires a government that protects those rights, and not anarchy (of whatever flavour). Freedom to do something is not merely freedom from government interference, it is freedom to actually do it, which sometimes requires a government to actually step in and protect you from others that might want to stop you from doing that.
that's true but all of those are still negative rights under the umbrella of "freedom from interference". positive rights go much farther. Things like redistribution of wealth, access to services, enforcing certain values (like a common language) or public education.
The healthcare debate pretty much shows this. From a perspective of negative rights enforcing healthcare is oppressive as it eliminates choice, from a position of positive rights it's the basis of physical security and is liberating.
I agree that most of the questioned where concerned with negative freedoms which is more prominent in the US so you're probably right about the labels in this case, but generally I don't think it describes the whole spectrum.
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On March 21 2017 02:53 farvacola wrote:
At the end of day, my experience tells me that the preservation of social liberties requires the presence of robust government institutions ready to defend them, and that just doesn't jive with much of any of what Libertarianism is about lol.
Who defends us from the governments though? There's your problem.
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On March 21 2017 03:25 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2017 02:53 farvacola wrote:
At the end of day, my experience tells me that the preservation of social liberties requires the presence of robust government institutions ready to defend them, and that just doesn't jive with much of any of what Libertarianism is about lol. Who defends us from the governments though? There's your problem.
Other parts of the government? Your fellow citizens? We invented civil liberties for just this reason.
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On March 21 2017 03:25 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2017 02:53 farvacola wrote:
At the end of day, my experience tells me that the preservation of social liberties requires the presence of robust government institutions ready to defend them, and that just doesn't jive with much of any of what Libertarianism is about lol. Who defends us from the governments though? There's your problem.
The answer to that question is complicated and nation-specific, but here in the US, its a mix of separation of powers/checks and balances in government structure, the courts, and the division of state/federal government. Naturally, this is apparent some times more than others, but generally we have a lot of government on government conflict here and it does safeguard rights to some extent. How this kind of thing works in Europe is beyond me.
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The same way, its just a stupid question. A democratic goverment can't just turn into a dictatorship whiteout massive public support.
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On March 21 2017 02:53 farvacola wrote:
At the end of day, my experience tells me that the preservation of social liberties requires the presence of robust government institutions ready to defend them, and that just doesn't jive with much of any of what Libertarianism is about lol.
Why doesn't it? Most libertarians are for a strong (and small) government which can safeguard property rights, enforce contracts, provide security etc.
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On March 21 2017 03:44 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2017 02:53 farvacola wrote:
At the end of day, my experience tells me that the preservation of social liberties requires the presence of robust government institutions ready to defend them, and that just doesn't jive with much of any of what Libertarianism is about lol. Why doesn't it? Most libertarians are for a strong (and small) government which can safeguard property rights, enforce contracts, provide security etc.
Because they end up opposing most of these things when put into practice. They love the concept of a small, powerful government in theory. But when the small powerful government has to enforce things like zoning laws or build roads/schools, they don’t like government that much.
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Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.41
I wish they would (also) ask broader concepts in these tests. It is mostly the same old flavor of the decade questions.
Edit. Or rather I guess they do, but it feels like they are just in between the lines and then there is a bunch of gay and crime and schooling questions, which one could just deduce from broader concepts or checklists like "what parts of the economy do you believe a state should be in charge of".
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@French fellows: who else watches the TV debate tonight?
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is the debate available online somewhere?
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thanks for the link , national independence seems to be Le Pen's 9/11. something something sovereignty
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On March 21 2017 05:16 Nyxisto wrote:
thanks for the link , national independence seems to be Le Pen's 9/11. something something sovereignty
What did you expect ?
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Well I did kind of expect it lol. I like Melenchon actually , he seems fired up
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So far, Macron sounds fake except when he gets a bit excited/aggressive, in which case he sounds less fake ; Fillon sounds tired and bored ; Hamon sounds a bit tired but serious/knowledgeable, and surprisingly ready to take the fight head-on ; Mélenchon sounds globally good, especially when attacking others, but less clear when explaining his own platform ; Le Pen sounds like an angry bartender.
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I can't stand Le Pen, pointing problems, identifying some wrong reasons for said problem, don't propose a solution.
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On March 21 2017 07:06 nojok wrote:
I can't stand Le Pen, pointing problems, identifying some wrong reasons for said problem, don't propose a solution.
That's populism for you. It works when no one else acknowledges the problem though.
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Economic Left/Right: -2.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.95
I wonder how some of the questions made it into this poll...
"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."
"When you are troubled, it's better not to think about it, but to keep busy with more cheerful things."
"Astrology accurately explains many things." (REALLY? Is that a right- or left-wing view? I have a hunch that according to the poll it's the former...)
"Some people are naturally unlucky." (Are we talking about superstitions or people being born into bad circumstances?)
"Mothers may have careers, but their first duty is to be homemakers." (I know the intention behind this question, but what if I think the same should apply to fathers?)
Not to mention the fact that most questions related to economy deal with large multi-national corporations. Very biased...
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EPT
