EPTNorway's probably gonna be about the first country in the world to outlaw cash, they're aiming for 2030. To me, that's frightening as hell, but most people don't seem to understand why I'm opposed - the goal of the cashfree society seems to have multipartisan support and hardly any opposition.
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
Norway's probably gonna be about the first country in the world to outlaw cash, they're aiming for 2030. To me, that's frightening as hell, but most people don't seem to understand why I'm opposed - the goal of the cashfree society seems to have multipartisan support and hardly any opposition. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7804 Posts
On March 11 2017 09:12 bardtown wrote: You are being hyperbolic though. You need to point people to specifics, because there's hardly a soul left in the world who hasn't been called a fascist by politically illiterate college activists in this day and age. The more people like you hollow out these words the more likely it is that people will fail to recognise real fascism when it comes. I mean, in the US you literally have 'antifascists' enacting political violence on people peacefully exercising their individual liberties. I am not illiterate, I am not an activist and I am not in college, and I point out that the term fascist applies to the FN because they have a rigorous historical and ideological continuity from early and mid century fascism: historically through Vichy and the OAS, ideologically through Maurras. Anything else? | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6190 Posts
On March 11 2017 09:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think the 'gotta have valid ID at all times when outside' is pretty unique to the netherlands. Which is weird, as you've generally been just about the most freedom-loving country. I agree it's disheartening that people seemingly don't value 'right to privacy' that highly, because it's incredibly important to me. Norway's probably gonna be about the first country in the world to outlaw cash, they're aiming for 2030. To me, that's frightening as hell, but most people don't seem to understand why I'm opposed - the goal of the cashfree society seems to have multipartisan support and hardly any opposition. Our government has always had a thing for registering a lot of personal details of its citizens. It's one of the main reasons why jews were easily caught in ww2. We just trust the government too much in that regard. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On March 11 2017 09:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: Lol? You follow up 'you are being hyperbolic' with 'there's hardly a soul left in the world who hasn't been called a fascist by politically illiterate college activists in this day and age'? Yes, I was being hyperbolic. That said, I've been called a fascist multiple times and I am extremely outspoken in favour of democracy/liberalism. On March 11 2017 09:43 a_flayer wrote: Fascism is already slowly being implemented across the western world under the guise of so-called anti-terrorism and anti-child porn laws. From mass surveillance of online activities to penalties if you are caught outside without the proper documentation. I was stopped once by the police while going to the supermarket. I had only brought my phone (the phone case also holds my debit card) and didn't have a legitimate ID with me. The cop didn't fine me but absolutely could have - that Muslim grandpa was cuffed and brought to the police station for going to the mosque without his ID, iirc. I suppose he had at least done something wrong though (cycling on the wrong side of the road, probably to prevent having to cross the road twice over a short distance). The reason why I was stopped? There had been a suspected terrorist activity in a village nearby which turned out to be nothing. I didn't break any laws for the cop to have a reason to stop me (which is why people said it was fine to implement that law - cops wouldn't go out of their way to stop law-abiding citizens). Why is it OK for the government to enforce keeping logs of all our activities? From visiting websites to traveling on public transport? And as cars become ever-more connected to the internet, I'm sure it won't be long before they start tracking that shit as well. Would it be OK if the government made copies of each letter that was sent through the mail "just in case"? Would it be OK if the government kept a log of every house you entered? Every shop you browsed in? Not only that, people keep talking about wanting to ban encryption, while intelligence agencies that are supposed to keep us secure won't even report security bugs to software maintainers because they want their backdoors. How is that keeping any of us secure from identity theft or other crooked online activities that harm citizens? Lets talk about fascism. Everything we do online in our ever-increasing digitalized lives is being logged, and now, across the western world, people are supposedly voting in fascists (from Trump to Le Pen to Wilders). How will that turn out? The liberals are setting up semi-fascist laws, and now we're voting in a bunch of far right people. How fucking stupid are we as humanity? Hear hear... Except clumsily conflating patriotic uprisings with fascism is naive. Trump's war on the 'deep state' is, at least ostensibly, diametrically opposed to Obama's continual centralisation of power. Shouldn't you be supporting him if you are so concerned about state surveillance powers? I think you are broadly on point, though. Data will be collected and interpreted on an incredible scale. It would be wise for citizens to start educating themselves on how to avoid the consequences of these systems because I don't see how they can effectively limit government in that domain. I can't see GCHQ going anywhere and, insofar as companies collect data to improve their experience for customers, GCHQ will manage to access it. I suppose on a positive note you could point to Apple/Google refusing to unlock data for intelligence agencies and hope that some sort of balance of power will emerge from this angle. Then again, the amount of data that those companies collect is discomforting in itself. We are hurtling towards dystopia  . But you cannot stand against the tide of progress. The best you can hope to do is channel it.Edit: We had an act to implement ID cards in the UK that was repealed primarily on privacy/security/human rights grounds IIRC. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 11 2017 10:14 bardtown wrote: Yes, I was being hyperbolic. That said, I've been called a fascist multiple times and I am extremely outspoken in favour of democracy/liberalism. Hear hear... Except clumsily conflating patriotic uprisings with fascism is naive. Trump's war on the 'deep state' is, at least ostensibly, diametrically opposed to Obama's continual centralisation of power. Shouldn't you be supporting him if you are so concerned about state surveillance powers? I think you are broadly on point, though. Data will be collected and interpreted on an incredible scale. It would be wise for citizens to start educating themselves on how to avoid the consequences of these systems because I don't see how they can effectively limit government in that domain. I can't see GCHQ going anywhere and, insofar as companies collect data to improve their experience for customers, GCHQ will manage to access it. I suppose on a positive note you could point to Apple/Google refusing to unlock data for intelligence agencies and hope that some sort of balance of power will emerge from this angle. Then again, the amount of data that those companies collect is discomforting in itself. We are hurtling towards dystopia . But you cannot stand against the tide of progress. The best you can hope to do is channel it.Edit: We had an act to implement ID cards in the UK that was repealed primarily on privacy/security/human rights grounds IIRC. Yeah, I was just going with the common line of thought that the far-right people are fascists to make that point. I don't really think that they are actually fascists. Trumps opposition to the deep state is interesting, to stay the least. I think it has more to do with the fact that they're investigating him personally rather than a general opposition to their activities, though. I agree wholeheartedly on what you say about channelling the tide of progress. This is why I think we should work towards implementing some type of "eDemocracy". In this same line of thinking, I'm also a fervent supporter of open source software in all areas of society. There are so many ways in which software and algorithms - often driven by corporations and a for-profit earmark - are influencing our lives in one way or another. One particular example is that article in The Guardian about that Mercer guy who supported Trump and reached out to people through digital means (source). It's one thing when people are using YouTube on their own and its algorithm suggests videos that corroborate the line of thinking in the video they just watched, creating an artificial echo chamber that does damage to the political landscape. It's becoming really eerie when people are deliberately using that sort of thing to influence people's way of thinking through political ads. I am really anxious about how digitalization is going to end up as we move forward unless there is some massive shift in the way we approach all of this. I feel like widespread use of open source software (from websites to phones, cars and network infrastructure) could be one way of preventing digitalization from taking an uncomfortable and oblique hold on humanity. Unfortunately, that seems to be an outlying minority opinion, perhaps even considered a so-called tinfoil hat opinion. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 11 2017 09:12 bardtown wrote: You are being hyperbolic though. You need to point people to specifics, because there's hardly a soul left in the world who hasn't been called a fascist by politically illiterate college activists in this day and age. The more people like you hollow out these words the more likely it is that people will fail to recognise real fascism when it comes. Thing is, “real fascism” always wears a mask. By nature this ideology is opportunist and practices syncretism. They're snakes who learnt how to conceal their radicality. That's why you're always in the grey zone with them. But when they reach power locally, they generally behave like little tyrants and bully any opposition. Marine Le Pen threatened public officiers who investigate her cases. Some mayor affiliated to the FN in the South tried to set up a “Muslim file” for kids in his town's schools. One FN mayor cut off electricity to a well-known national association which helps poor people because they also helped migrants (the FN guy accused them of being “communists” who make “pro-migrant propaganda” ...). The FN militants accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being “traitors”. The amount of pure filth you can find on their Facebook/Twitter is absolutely unbelievable. We have more than enough clues to know that they are not a “normal” party. Add the probably massive civil unrest which would follow their victory and they would have excuses ready to further become radicalized in their own nonsense. On March 11 2017 09:43 a_flayer wrote: Lets talk about fascism. Everything we do online in our ever-increasing digitalized lives is being logged, and now, across the western world, people are supposedly voting in fascists (from Trump to Le Pen to Wilders). How will that turn out? The liberals are setting up semi-fascist laws, and now we're voting in a bunch of far right people. How fucking stupid are we as humanity? Yup, same for France. Hollande claims that the far-right is on the verge of reaching power... yet let them enough bills to turn France into a dictatorship in a matter of weeks. Dumb as his feet. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21336 Posts
On March 11 2017 09:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think the 'gotta have valid ID at all times when outside' is pretty unique to the netherlands. Which is weird, as you've generally been just about the most freedom-loving country. I agree it's disheartening that people seemingly don't value 'right to privacy' that highly, because it's incredibly important to me. Norway's probably gonna be about the first country in the world to outlaw cash, they're aiming for 2030. To me, that's frightening as hell, but most people don't seem to understand why I'm opposed - the goal of the cashfree society seems to have multipartisan support and hardly any opposition. I think 'right to privacy' is a huge overstatement in this. Its your name, birth date and a picture so that law enforcement can confirm your identity if they need to write you a ticket. If we start recording peoples religions, sexual preferences or whatever on it then yes I'm with you but now? Makes plenty of sense and my privacy is in no way effected. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
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Acrofales
Spain17831 Posts
So it does indeed come down to the question whether you trust the police to not go around registering IDs for no good reason. The police does still need a reason to stop you in the Netherlands (and in Spain and technically Brazil too, although I'm not sure I'd argue with the police there), and just to check whether you have ID was found to not be a valid reason. In NL at least, you can refuse unless the police state why you are being asked for your ID. I still think it's a shitty rule, but I don't see it as a privacy destroying rule. It's more just an easy way for government to get extra money out of people without a driver's license (either walk around with your passport, or pay for an extra ID card). | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30545 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/11/erdogan-brands-dutch-nazi-remnants-for-barring-turkish-mp I'm actually impressed our government stood up for itself. Their foreign minister wanted to hold a rally in Rotterdam but it was banned for security reasons. Instead of finding a solution that did adhere to safety measures they threatened with sanctions so now we blocked him from landing entirely. I guess since it's election time it's a profitable move from Rutte but I've never seen us be so bold in diplomacy. Given Erdogans retarded response I wonder what more will follow... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 12 2017 00:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Well Erdogan just called us Nazi's and facists for blocking the foreign minister from campaigning for his powergrab so I guess it must be true. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/11/erdogan-brands-dutch-nazi-remnants-for-barring-turkish-mp I'm actually impressed our government stood up for itself. Their foreign minister wanted to hold a rally in Rotterdam but it was banned for security reasons. Instead of finding a solution that did adhere to safety measures they threatened with sanctions so now we blocked him from landing entirely. I guess since it's election time it's a profitable move from Rutte but I've never seen us be so bold in diplomacy. Given Erdogans retarded response I wonder what more will follow... It is the facist way to create a world in which you are the good leader of the people, and everyone else is evil. It's what happens when they get into power, they eventually run out of inner enemies they can blame for the state of their country, so they have to create outer enemies. There is no other explantion for them, as it cannot be the people's fault for their own doings and it cannot be their fault, since you are the good, allknowing leader of your people. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On March 12 2017 00:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Well Erdogan just called us Nazi's and facists for blocking the foreign minister from campaigning for his powergrab so I guess it must be true. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/11/erdogan-brands-dutch-nazi-remnants-for-barring-turkish-mp I'm actually impressed our government stood up for itself. Their foreign minister wanted to hold a rally in Rotterdam but it was banned for security reasons. Instead of finding a solution that did adhere to safety measures they threatened with sanctions so now we blocked him from landing entirely. I guess since it's election time it's a profitable move from Rutte but I've never seen us be so bold in diplomacy. Given Erdogans retarded response I wonder what more will follow... I really wonder how this whole Turkey thing will pan out in the next couple of years. I could see them leaving or being removed from NATO if they keep going down this path, which is a worrying thought in some ways. I mean, I don't want them in at this point, just as I don't want the US in, because both countries are so fucked up (in their own ways), but Turkeys departure (and subsequent move towards Russia) could be quite disruptive to global stability... | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On March 12 2017 01:37 a_flayer wrote: I really wonder how this whole Turkey thing will pan out in the next couple of years. I could see them leaving or being removed from NATO if they keep going down this path, which is a worrying thought in some ways. I mean, I don't want them in at this point, just as I don't want the US in, because both countries are so fucked up (in their own ways), but Turkeys departure (and subsequent move towards Russia) could be quite disruptive to global stability... To me the Turkey situation is one the most distressing things happening in the area. Yeah, Russia is doing a far share of fuckery, the Arab spring aftermath has fucked up all too many places and the Syria war is absolutely terrible but these things were in some sense at least vaguely expected. But Turkey seemed for a long time to have itself figured - surely not in a totally democratic way, but it worked for almost a century - and ten years ago it looked like it might stay that way for a while. It would probably have been obvious that something is coming if I had known more back then about what is happening under the cover though. Turkey is a country of insane potential. It's not a "middle eastern backwater". It has huge income and infrastructural inequality bewteen Istanbul/Ankara and the rural parts, but it is quite rich and developed or at least developing fast - I was treally in awe to see how much changed in the eastern parts just between my visits in 2007 and 2013. It is a country of incredible diversity, a country that has long been able to reconcile aspects of the traditional cultures (of which there are many) with modern western influences. And then came this dickhead and he wants to ruin it all because it will make it easier for him to get all the power. Seriously, fuck Erdogan. Yeah, I know he isn't really the disease but a symptom, but every time I see his ugly little grin, I wish he falls into the Bosphorus and suffocates on fish kebab leftovers. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6190 Posts
On March 12 2017 00:45 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Well Erdogan just called us Nazi's and facists for blocking the foreign minister from campaigning for his powergrab so I guess it must be true. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/11/erdogan-brands-dutch-nazi-remnants-for-barring-turkish-mp I'm actually impressed our government stood up for itself. Their foreign minister wanted to hold a rally in Rotterdam but it was banned for security reasons. Instead of finding a solution that did adhere to safety measures they threatened with sanctions so now we blocked him from landing entirely. I guess since it's election time it's a profitable move from Rutte but I've never seen us be so bold in diplomacy. Given Erdogans retarded response I wonder what more will follow... Our government really had no choice. When someone threatens sanctions you can't just let it go. This is especially the case with elections coming up and Wilders doing relatively well. The threat of sanctions is most likely empty. With Turkeys economy as it is (negative growth and a huge trade deficit which is financed by short term cash) they need every foreign investment they can get. I think it'll stay with words for national consumption and that's it. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21336 Posts
How stupid can you be? The government cant well let her get in after publicly denying her access so at best she gets arrested and put back on a plane to Turkey. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30545 Posts
On March 12 2017 02:12 Gorsameth wrote: According to Turkish media, after having her plane denied landing the Turkish minister is now the way by car from Germany. No confirmation of it that I have found tho. How stupid can you be? The government cant well let her get in after publicly denying her access so at best she gets arrested and put back on a plane to Turkey. It's all over NOS.nl It's a different minister. The one who's plane is blocked was Cavusoglu of foreign affairs. This one is Kaya, a female minster of family. Very provocative move but I doubt she'll be halted unless she starts some big rally | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On March 11 2017 09:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: In my experience the really big problems are not the voters, but rather the party itself. The voters are not my favourite french people but when you do 25%, you have very diverse folks. But the people engaged in the party, from the local politicians in rural area to the leaders are simply pond scums. You can't get an idea of the FN by looking at them on the TV, you have to meet them and see what they do when they get anywhere near to power. It's ignorance, stupidity and meanness taking decisions. I have had the priviledge to know a family of real FN people in the late 90's. They were making comments about arabs every other sentence. I am all for not crying wolf, but when someone tells you that arabs are thieves and arabs don't want to work, and arabs are like vermins that invade the country, you might start to think that "racist" is an adequate term. We have FN neighbours in the countryside. When they drink a bit and start talking, it's just horrifying. You have the impression of being in 1935. As for the fascism, that's where they come from. Again, it's not Trump or the alt right. It's a party that has a perfect continuity with historical, actual fascism. It was founded by people who supported Vichy and Pétain, French Algeria and the colonies, who hated democracy etc etc, and despite a gigantic PR effort to appear acceptable and normal, they have never really deviated (apart on minor stuff like the economy, because they don't have a clue and don't give a damn. They can go Milton Friedman into hatrdcore left wing in a matter of months and nobody even notices.) It's time to stop being naive. Some people are nasty, some political forces are truly horrifying. The FN is one of them. It's a concentrate of everything wrong with France. And if it gets to power, it will be a historical disaster, and I am not being hyperbolic. Your concerns about the FN are not without merit, given the history of the party and other factors that might indicate that they really do have a lot of the same aspects as the old party. But they do clearly touch upon something important, given how much their support has risen over the past decade. And they are likely helped along by the fact that the terms "racism" and "fascism" have indeed been used too loosely in the past, diminishing the effectiveness of how they are used right now. And while the elections of 2017 do suggest that populist parties will get worse results than in 2016, there is no indication of a long-term receding of the populist trend; more like an oscillation. Perhaps if other parties were to be more cognizant of the issues that lead people towards populists (sovereignty, uncontrolled immigration among them) those parties would be less popular right now. Maybe a few insane people in high office is the kick in the ass that the EU needs to understand that the current system is headed only towards a fracturing of the union. | ||
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