EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 704
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
|
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
| ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On March 12 2017 02:21 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: It's all over NOS.nl It's a different minister. The one who's plane is blocked was Cavusoglu of foreign affairs. This one is Kaya, a female minster of family. Very provocative move but I doubt she'll be halted unless she starts some big rally Ok I was wrong. Minister Kaya has been halted for quite some time now by the police near the consulate in Rotterdam and is not allowed to continue. Hundreds of dutch-turkish erdogan supporters with turkish flags are now also gathering in Rotterdam. Peaceful for now. I hope they don't riot. Dutch ambassador has been banned from Turkey. Shit is hitting the fan. Really beginning to feel like a premeditated move by Turkey to start some shit. | ||
|
Acrofales
Spain17976 Posts
On March 12 2017 05:57 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Ok I was wrong. Minister Kaya has been halted for quite some time now by the police near the consulate in Rotterdam and is not allowed to continue. https://twitter.com/drbetulsayan/status/840661681529376774 Hundreds of dutch-turkish erdogan supporters with turkish flags are now also gathering in Rotterdam. Peaceful for now. I hope they don't riot. Dutch ambassador has been banned from Turkey. Shit is hitting the fan. Really beginning to feel like a premeditated move by Turkey to start some shit. I was just discussing this with my girlfriend. Is the Netherlands in the right or the wrong here? It's really not clear on what grounds we can stop minister Kaya from going to the Turkish consulate, or for that matter, on what grounds we stopped Cavusoglu from entering the country. I think it is very undesirable to have the Turkish government campaigning in the Netherlands, and given that, you'd think the Turkish would be polite and just not do it. But given that they are doing it, why not just let it happen and protest it in some other (more diplomatic) way? It seems weird for the Dutch government to allow it to escalate like this. Or maybe it's just Rutte trying to draw PVV voters...  | ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On March 12 2017 06:48 Acrofales wrote: I was just discussing this with my girlfriend. Is the Netherlands in the right or the wrong here? It's really not clear on what grounds we can stop minister Kaya from going to the Turkish consulate, or for that matter, on what grounds we stopped Cavusoglu from entering the country. I think it is very undesirable to have the Turkish government campaigning in the Netherlands, and given that, you'd think the Turkish would be polite and just not do it. But given that they are doing it, why not just let it happen and protest it in some other (more diplomatic) way? It seems weird for the Dutch government to allow it to escalate like this. Or maybe it's just Rutte trying to draw PVV voters... Cavusoglu called for a large public rally in center of Rotterdam. The government didn't want to support him in that since it would be disturbance of public order. If he wanted to speak to people he would have to do it on our terms in a designated place. But during talks about this Turkish authorities escalated by publicly threatening with sanctions against us. After that our government refused him to even land at all since he wasn't interested in being reasonable. https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2017/03/11/verklaring-kabinet-intrekken-turkse-landingsrechten Then Erdogan called us facist Nazis and sent a different minister Kaya by car from Germany to Rotterdam, uninvited. Seeing what harsh stuff Erdogan said I guess the goverment decided she was also not welcome here? No idea about legality though. They did call out an emergency decree around the turkish consulate there. I assume our goverment has not gone full Trump yet and actually discussed with the judicial branch if what they did is actually legal. Also literally every (exept Erdogan friends from Denk who issued no statement yet) party agreed with Rutte on doing this. This is her being asked to leave the country. Which she refused and now there is still a stalemate I think. With her cars being surrounded by police and she refusing to leave. | ||
|
Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
And it seems they even risked getting into a firefight with the possibly armed guards of the Turkish minister by sending militarized special attack/SWAT team to arrest her. They could just have let them have a meeting, ignored it completely, no one would have cared, and Erdogan would have barely won or barely lost the referendum. Now, how do I myself win a debate against an Erdogan supporter, pushing for a dictatorship, when my own government has no quarrels with limiting freedom of speech. Being a supporter of freedom of speech only means something when you defend the right to freedom of speech of someone you disagree with. If you dislike Turkey so much, why not tell NATO that either you or Turkey leaves NATO. That's what I would do. No. They don't have the balls to do that. They make deals with Erdogan to keep refugees all winter in the cold snowy mountains on the Turkey-Syrian border, so our own deplorables, who we gave no share of the economic growth realized through globalization, won't vote xenophobic right. Those that support Kurdish freedom fighters/terrorists have freedom to express their support for their leaders, who killed Turkish soldiers. But when a minister of family matters wants to talk to dual citizens, that is so so dangerous to our own democracy, we have to bar them no matter what. Even the Turkish opposition (the real opposition, not the orchestrated one) realizes the Dutch government is now in cahoots with Edrogan, either deliberately or by sheer nativity. And the foolish thing is, some Turkish minister will at some point before the elections, manage to give a speech in the Netherlands and Edrogan will claim victory, Rutte will loose face, and Wilders will attack Rutte viciously for failing. This reminds me so much of watching an interview with butcher Assad 1.5 years ago, where he attacked western hypocrisy. And the sad thing is, this butcher, he was right. Any maybe we need to ask ourselves, as Europeans, why our own dual citizen Turkish people support Edrogan even more than the average Turkish person in Turkey? Those people have fully experienced the benefits of democracy, equality and freedom of speech. Yet they still prefer living in a dictatorship. | ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. The protesters who have no permit for doing so are treated very fairly and are not prohibited from freedom of speech. We don't dislike Turkey or Turks. We do dislike Erdogan and his rhetoric and methods. | ||
|
Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
A minister is on the doorsteps of their own consulate and was barred entry, and in the end basically arrested by an anti terror squad. All Dutch considering voting Wilders and all Turks considering voting against Edrogan, they now clearly know what to do. Only a fool believes this isn't a violation of basic rights. And yes, it is a humiliation of Turkey by the Netherlands. This was a move of desperation by Rutte and Asscher, in fear of Wilders. And if Rutte, and even our left, is willing to sacrifice basic freedoms of Turksish people, for a few more votes, what will they do with my freedoms if they can violate it with the hope of gaining a few votes? Yes, I am priviliged and it won't happen. But they will definitely do it, as they don't respect universal application of basic freedoms, if it has unwanted and inconvenient results. (never mind the fact the outcome of these actions today are even more inconvenient, but they are too incompetent to see it). Mark my words, as of today, thanks to Rutte and Assher, in a few days a Turkish official will show up somewhere, talk to dual Turkish citizens, live on TRT, followed by Edrogan claiming victory, raging against 'Dutch nazi's'. Then Wilders will take to twitter. Both will win the election, and all normal people will have lost. You are delusional if you don't see this. You really think Edrogan lost today? You really think Dutch-Turkish people in the Netherlands feel more Dutch after today? You think our society has proven today that it is robust enough to endure the unwanted excesses of freedom of speech today? Disliking Edrogen, disliking Putin, disliking IS; that isn't good enough. You need to beat them. And we don't do that by sacrificing our own values and identity just to show them that we are just as tough as they are. | ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
We are not sacrificing values. Freedom and democracy does not imply tolerance for intolerance and dictators. | ||
|
Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
If you believe in freedom of speech, you invite as many ministers and officials of Turkey you can, and you debate them. Yes, Turkey played all tricks they could come up with. But in the end, our government did nothing to stand up for western values and tried to beat Turkey at their own game. In the end, even at that they will have lost. So it all came down to sending an anti-terror squad against a 1.50m tall woman with a head scarf, to prevent her from entering the Turkish consulate. To what end? To appear 'tougher' than Edrogan? Was she really that much of a danger to public order or Dutch democracy? Look at what Germany did. They aren't stupid like a donkey like we are. Instead of making Edrogan look like the clown he really is, all we did was give him an even bigger stick that he could have ever hoped for. This is the biggest coup for Edrogan since his coup of the failed coup. And then we have our own election. But instead of talking about climate change, developing an innovative economy that provides high tech jobs for the technologies of the future (we don't have a 'kenniseconomie'), talking about the divides between rich and poor, young and old, talking about free market and health insurance, talking about teachers and nurses being underpaid, talking about lack of proper and humane care for the elderly, talking about how to prevent the next financial crisis, talking about how we organize the EU without the the whole Eurozone sharing the fiscal policies optimal for the German economy, talking about the democratic deficit of the EU, we will be talking about Edrogan for 3 days. | ||
|
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
| ||
|
Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
Of course she chose to. We fucking fell for it! How can't you get that into your thick skull. They lied. They send two different envoy. It was a ploy. Our cops were chasing the wrong envoy. Of course. But we still fell for it. The Germany, they didn't. We are fools. And we put a big divide between our dual citizens, and we helped Wilders&Edrogan. It's fucking retarded. You really think rational, civilized debate won today? Really? Thanks to this, we will have a dysfunctional government for the next year or so. I won't make the Turkey case again, since you obviously don't care for democracy in Turkey. But we will have Wilders 30 seats, VVD 25 seats, CDA 22 seats and some even more nutjob guys 5+ seats. BTW, they are even too incompetent to get her into Germany. They keep driving around Nijmegen? I would 'love' it if the Germans told us that they don't want her. We always follow German orders. | ||
|
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Why does everything has to do with Wilders and the far-right anytime someone gets tough? Most Western countries have a constitution that usually involves some nationalistic visions of protecting the country from foreign interests. This is rarely necessary in a friendly, diplomatic world. But that's not the case with Erdogan at the moment. If someone wants to piss in your garden you usually tell them off and they usually won't do it because you have every right to deny them unless it is necessary for them. If you tell them off and they don't want to listen, although it is not necessary for them, then you use your rights. That's not apeasing far-rights. If people can't tell the difference between this and just in general trying to be as harsh as you can be or even beyond that, regardless of the others behavior, then I guess they simply deserve a far-right leader. | ||
|
Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
PS: It just seems like you care about Wilders winning or losing and how this effects that, than on the principle of free speech itself... | ||
|
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
| ||
|
Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
Why does everything have to do with Wilders? Ask Rutte. In the end, he made the decision. Or rather, he gambled and lost. Because let's face it. If Rutte knew it would turn out this way, he would rather have played the German way. He gambled and lost. | ||
|
Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
On March 12 2017 10:40 Wegandi wrote: Didn't you guys charge Wilders with crimes for speech? I'm just missing this idea that the NL's liberal values are that strong anyways...at least compared to ours (re: speech). If you can send Wilders to court for his speech you've all ready snuck the camels nose through the tent with regards to limiting someones speech. I agree with you on your very Paine-esque view that you must defend the Devils' rights for rights to have any meaning, but that hasn't been the EU position in regards to free-speech. Dutch people like to brag about being liberal, a guiding nation, freedom of specech, but when things get tough, we throw all these values out of the window in a heartbeat? Why? Because the right wing politiicans are right; we have no spine or identity. PS: It just seems like you care about Wilders winning or losing and how this effects that, than on the principle of free speech itself... Wilders is like Trump, but then without talent and completely incompetent. Imagine that. I just hope that people who obviously don't care, or understand, freedom of speech (and many Europeans don't, because as you pointed out correctly, in US terms, most EU countries don't have freedom of speech period), at least they care enough about not having Wilders. Not only does Wilders lead his party as a dictator (he is the only member) and he will obviously lead the country like he leads his party, he also never completed a higher education, never held a real job, is the epitome of a career politician, and has never had a real interaction with a person ever since he got permanent security (not his fault, but it made him who he is today), he is like the tasteless, talentless un-charming version of Trump. At least Trump is what he thinks he is. Wilders is a self-hating child of immigrants who was never able to get a respectable job or position in society. He is exactly that what he says he hates the most. | ||
|
RvB
Netherlands6205 Posts
| ||
|
Philoctetes
Netherlands77 Posts
| ||
|
RvB
Netherlands6205 Posts
| ||
| ||
