|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
Not all immigrants that are worrisome are Arabs. Of course, anyone who doesn't see the cultural issues with importing millions of Arabs into a Western society with little thought as to the results is probably a leftist idealist, but I'm not really in the mood to talk culture because that's not going anywhere. But the other kind of immigration is the intra-EU immigration, where people from poor countries (often those with a pretty good education) come work in Britain or Germany because they can make more being a plumber in England than a doctor in their home countries.
In a way, these kinds of immigrants are good. I'm not a hard-liner against immigration because I see how they can genuinely improve things. But too often, if immigrants are propped up at the expense of the working class, that breeds a class of resentment. And of course, there are good immigrants and bad immigrants, which makes the "immigrants always net good" folk look just stupid.
And these aren't the very poor looking for a social safety net and a minimum wage. These are the people who would like to live a middle class life but who are reduced to peasant wages because their source of income was pushed into a downward spiral.
The solutions are by no means simple. To be perfectly honest we're probably going to have to go through a few populists before the current governments really start to take it seriously. I don't expect the EU to survive this; it's proven to be remarkably inflexible a system when faced with the necessity of change. It simply doesn't have the cohesiveness of a nation-state, and that can't be artificially created. I think it better to put it out of its misery sooner rather than later and create a more realistic cooperation within Europe.
|
On February 08 2017 05:13 LegalLord wrote:But the other kind of immigration is the intra-EU immigration, where people from poor countries (often those with a pretty good education) come work in Britain or Germany because they can make more being a plumber in England than a doctor in their home countries.
That's not a particularly common type of immigration despite the plentiful anecdotes about it. Doctors and other highly trained professionals are in very high demand in countries like Britain or Germany. Whoever can crack open the job market in those fields in Eastern EU countries can go in the West and do the same, this comes with its own problems but that's another discussion.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk
|
On February 08 2017 08:01 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2017 05:13 LegalLord wrote:But the other kind of immigration is the intra-EU immigration, where people from poor countries (often those with a pretty good education) come work in Britain or Germany because they can make more being a plumber in England than a doctor in their home countries. That's not a particularly common type of immigration despite the plentiful anecdotes about it. Doctors and other highly trained professionals are in very high demand in countries like Britain or Germany. Whoever can crack open the job market in those fields in Eastern EU countries can go in the West and do the same, this comes with its own problems but that's another discussion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk
I certainly hope it's not quite that bad. But when the minimum wage in UK/France/Germany is higher than the average wage in poorer countries... well, the grunt jobs don't really look all that bad even for educated folk.
Regardless, "Polish plumbers" is as much of a concern of anti-immigrant Brits as refugees.
|
On February 08 2017 17:53 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2017 08:01 Dan HH wrote:On February 08 2017 05:13 LegalLord wrote:But the other kind of immigration is the intra-EU immigration, where people from poor countries (often those with a pretty good education) come work in Britain or Germany because they can make more being a plumber in England than a doctor in their home countries. That's not a particularly common type of immigration despite the plentiful anecdotes about it. Doctors and other highly trained professionals are in very high demand in countries like Britain or Germany. Whoever can crack open the job market in those fields in Eastern EU countries can go in the West and do the same, this comes with its own problems but that's another discussion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk Regardless, "Polish plumbers" is as much of a concern of anti-immigrant Brits as refugees.
So absolutely unfactual and basically non existant?
Seriously, Germany, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, Hungary, Greece, Slovenia and many others can bitch about "refugee" problems for various reasons, because there are actual refugees which creates a whole host of problems. The UK just can't do this, it is neither a transit country nor has it taken in a serious amount.
I certainly hope it's not quite that bad. But when the minimum wage in UK/France/Germany is higher than the average wage in poorer countries... well, the grunt jobs don't really look all that bad even for educated folk.
Some of the richest and most powerfull countries/economies in the world VS countries that were left to rot under the UDSSR for half a century. Yes, the diffrence is huge, there is a reason the UDSSR/Russia failed.
|
Drawing on a unique, new Chatham House survey of more than 10,000 people from 10 European states, we can throw new light on what people think about migration from mainly Muslim countries. Our results are striking and sobering. They suggest that public opposition to any further migration from predominantly Muslim states is by no means confined to Trump’s electorate in the US but is fairly widespread.
In our survey, carried out before President Trump’s executive order was announced, respondents were given the following statement: ‘All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped’. They were then asked to what extent did they agree or disagree with this statement. Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed.
Majorities in all but two of the ten states agreed, ranging from 71% in Poland, 65% in Austria, 53% in Germany and 51% in Italy to 47% in the United Kingdom and 41% in Spain. In no country did the percentage that disagreed surpass 32%.
+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration#
Surprised about how evenly distributed this belief is among all demographics
|
I don't see any problem in a state restricting immigration for economic reasons, as long as it's done in a reasonable manner. But when immigrants are used as a scapegoat for unrelated societal problems, and then the state acquires all new anti-citizen powers because of that--THAT'S the problem.
|
On February 08 2017 18:01 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2017 17:53 LegalLord wrote:On February 08 2017 08:01 Dan HH wrote:On February 08 2017 05:13 LegalLord wrote:But the other kind of immigration is the intra-EU immigration, where people from poor countries (often those with a pretty good education) come work in Britain or Germany because they can make more being a plumber in England than a doctor in their home countries. That's not a particularly common type of immigration despite the plentiful anecdotes about it. Doctors and other highly trained professionals are in very high demand in countries like Britain or Germany. Whoever can crack open the job market in those fields in Eastern EU countries can go in the West and do the same, this comes with its own problems but that's another discussion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk Regardless, "Polish plumbers" is as much of a concern of anti-immigrant Brits as refugees. So absolutely unfactual and basically non existant? Seriously, Germany, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, Hungary, Greece, Slovenia and many others can bitch about "refugee" problems for various reasons, because there are actual refugees which creates a whole host of problems. The UK just can't do this, it is neither a transit country nor has it taken in a serious amount. Show nested quote +I certainly hope it's not quite that bad. But when the minimum wage in UK/France/Germany is higher than the average wage in poorer countries... well, the grunt jobs don't really look all that bad even for educated folk. Some of the richest and most powerfull countries/economies in the world VS countries that were left to rot under the UDSSR for half a century. Yes, the diffrence is huge, there is a reason the UDSSR/Russia failed.
Back when I was in school they always told us in a history classes USSR was the great country, but now I see clear difference between what's left from USSR and eastern countries  and it feels like USSR is still shattering, destruction process is not over yet considering the amount of conflicts in this region.
And now even Polish plumbers looks arrogant towards Ukrainian plumbers, it seems like our immagrants are not welcomed in Europe in comparison to arabs, despite having common christian religion (or atheism it doesnt matter at this point) and mostly fine education. Or it is just me biased.
|
On February 08 2017 22:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2017 18:01 Velr wrote:On February 08 2017 17:53 LegalLord wrote:On February 08 2017 08:01 Dan HH wrote:On February 08 2017 05:13 LegalLord wrote:But the other kind of immigration is the intra-EU immigration, where people from poor countries (often those with a pretty good education) come work in Britain or Germany because they can make more being a plumber in England than a doctor in their home countries. That's not a particularly common type of immigration despite the plentiful anecdotes about it. Doctors and other highly trained professionals are in very high demand in countries like Britain or Germany. Whoever can crack open the job market in those fields in Eastern EU countries can go in the West and do the same, this comes with its own problems but that's another discussion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk Regardless, "Polish plumbers" is as much of a concern of anti-immigrant Brits as refugees. So absolutely unfactual and basically non existant? Seriously, Germany, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, Hungary, Greece, Slovenia and many others can bitch about "refugee" problems for various reasons, because there are actual refugees which creates a whole host of problems. The UK just can't do this, it is neither a transit country nor has it taken in a serious amount. I certainly hope it's not quite that bad. But when the minimum wage in UK/France/Germany is higher than the average wage in poorer countries... well, the grunt jobs don't really look all that bad even for educated folk. Some of the richest and most powerfull countries/economies in the world VS countries that were left to rot under the UDSSR for half a century. Yes, the diffrence is huge, there is a reason the UDSSR/Russia failed. Back when I was in school they always told us in a history classes USSR was the great country, but now I see clear difference between what's left from USSR and eastern countries and it feels like USSR is still shattering, destruction process is not over yet considering the amount of conflicts in this region. And now even Polish plumbers looks arrogant towards Ukrainian plumbers, it seems like our immagrants are not welcomed in Europe in comparison to arabs, despite having common christian religion (or atheism it doesnt matter at this point) and mostly fine education. Or it is just me biased.
Thats not true dude. There are 1 to 1,5 mln Ukrainian migrants in Poland. And they are very welcomed for the most part. My company office alone employs about 30-40 Ukrainians and almost 50% of people in my project are from Ukraine.
|
On February 08 2017 22:50 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2017 22:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 08 2017 18:01 Velr wrote:On February 08 2017 17:53 LegalLord wrote:On February 08 2017 08:01 Dan HH wrote:On February 08 2017 05:13 LegalLord wrote:But the other kind of immigration is the intra-EU immigration, where people from poor countries (often those with a pretty good education) come work in Britain or Germany because they can make more being a plumber in England than a doctor in their home countries. That's not a particularly common type of immigration despite the plentiful anecdotes about it. Doctors and other highly trained professionals are in very high demand in countries like Britain or Germany. Whoever can crack open the job market in those fields in Eastern EU countries can go in the West and do the same, this comes with its own problems but that's another discussion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk Regardless, "Polish plumbers" is as much of a concern of anti-immigrant Brits as refugees. So absolutely unfactual and basically non existant? Seriously, Germany, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, Hungary, Greece, Slovenia and many others can bitch about "refugee" problems for various reasons, because there are actual refugees which creates a whole host of problems. The UK just can't do this, it is neither a transit country nor has it taken in a serious amount. I certainly hope it's not quite that bad. But when the minimum wage in UK/France/Germany is higher than the average wage in poorer countries... well, the grunt jobs don't really look all that bad even for educated folk. Some of the richest and most powerfull countries/economies in the world VS countries that were left to rot under the UDSSR for half a century. Yes, the diffrence is huge, there is a reason the UDSSR/Russia failed. Back when I was in school they always told us in a history classes USSR was the great country, but now I see clear difference between what's left from USSR and eastern countries and it feels like USSR is still shattering, destruction process is not over yet considering the amount of conflicts in this region. And now even Polish plumbers looks arrogant towards Ukrainian plumbers, it seems like our immagrants are not welcomed in Europe in comparison to arabs, despite having common christian religion (or atheism it doesnt matter at this point) and mostly fine education. Or it is just me biased. Thats not true dude. There are 1 to 1,5 mln Ukrainian migrants in Poland. And they are very welcomed for the most part. My company office alone employs about 30-40 Ukrainians and almost 50% of people in my project are from Ukraine.
so i was wrong, thanks for clarification
few years ago most of ukrainians went to Russia to make some jobs, Russia paid big moneys for a relativly low qualities on any kind of job, so if u were decent specialist in something (even most of top pop-singers in russia were from ukraine) it meant that u could get a job with a high salary winning contention vs local aborigine
the times changing, vectors changing to west, and we have to prove ourselves in a different setup with much higher contention, the question is how exactly my motherland planning to survive this
|
Some of us might dislike Ukrainian immigrants, but those who do probably deeply hate Arabs so I think it's not fair to say that your countrymen are treated worse than Arabs (or other muslims) here. Dunno about Western Europe but they have even less reasons to dislike Ukrainians than we do.
|
On February 08 2017 23:30 Sent. wrote:
Some of us might dislike Ukrainian immigrants, but those who do probably deeply hate Arabs, so I think it's not fair to say that your countrymen are treated worse than Arabs (or other muslims) here. Dunno about Western Europe but they have even less reasons to dislike Ukrainians than we have.
Based on Poland's extensive experience with its ~30k Muslims on a population of 35m I'm sure the "deep hatred for Arabs" is entirely rational.
|
So are we talking about this study?
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4JDbkiWEAARcUB.jpg:large)
https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration
These figures are pretty shocking, but that's the result of years and years of irresponsible leadership ignoring moderate concerns. If this isn't addressed soon it is going to get much worse.
Note that countries with extensive experience of Muslim immigration (e.g. France) have 60% in favour of completely stopping immigration from Muslim majority countries.
|
Note that countries with extensive experience of Muslim immigration (e.g. France) have 60% in favour of completely stopping immigration from Muslim majority countries.
And countries with barely any, Poland, even more!
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
they reflect cultural anxiety. it speaks to failure to integrate and a view of muslim majority becoming a threat to existing institutions and practices.
basically, get some credible answer to the integration question. or highlight your well integrated muslim community a lot more and have that, instead of isis, be the face of 'islam' in the public imagination
|
They reflect the failure of these politics. There are only two paths now: 1) a huge self-reflection of traditional parties, leading to a 'we're sorry for how we fucked up',acknowledging these issues, stop calling everyone racist and working hard 2) continuing as they do now. This would lead to the rise of parties which have hard solutions to the problem of immigration. In fact, it is already happening (see Trump and the polls of incoming elections in the Netherlands, France, etc.)
|
On February 09 2017 00:19 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +Note that countries with extensive experience of Muslim immigration (e.g. France) have 60% in favour of completely stopping immigration from Muslim majority countries. And countries with barely any, Poland, even more!
I actually think this more historical/cultural thing. Three top countries on the list (Poland, Hungary, Austria) waged mutiple wars against Ottoman Empire and religion was big part of those conlicts. Our historiography is full of it. Even some mandatory readings in our schools depict Polish-Ottoman conflicts. Many people in Poland see current migration wave as a continuation of those conflicts. I would guess it might be similiar in Austria and Hungary , I would also risk a guess that if people in Serbia/Croatia were asked the results would be similiar.
Many people even in todays Poland think of our country as vanguard of Christiandom and think about islam in terms of conflict.
PS.I know the matter is complicated and there are many factors but i think this one is often overlooked.
|
It would be interesting to see the results if the question was only about immigrants without specifying a religion and also if there was a difference made between refugees and economical migrants.
As a nurse, it's a bit weird because French hospitals would not work without North African doctors, they're a huge proportion of our doctors, at least in the most impoverished regions. I think it's also true for a lots of jobs people don't want to do.
Also ironically all the rage was about Polish migrants a few years ago, the Polish plumber was mentionned daily for months in France, whereas it's notoriously hard to get a plumber fast.
|
So the question is how do u even separate different kinds of immigrants? and the core of the problem is that making differences potentially forces conflicts between those groups
And about most unwanted immigrants? i'd rather not even try to intergate a person from ISIS for example - that's not safe at least
Few generations must pass to make these differences smaller, we can't just press the button and solve the problem
|
On February 08 2017 17:53 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2017 08:01 Dan HH wrote:On February 08 2017 05:13 LegalLord wrote:But the other kind of immigration is the intra-EU immigration, where people from poor countries (often those with a pretty good education) come work in Britain or Germany because they can make more being a plumber in England than a doctor in their home countries. That's not a particularly common type of immigration despite the plentiful anecdotes about it. Doctors and other highly trained professionals are in very high demand in countries like Britain or Germany. Whoever can crack open the job market in those fields in Eastern EU countries can go in the West and do the same, this comes with its own problems but that's another discussion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk I certainly hope it's not quite that bad. But when the minimum wage in UK/France/Germany is higher than the average wage in poorer countries... well, the grunt jobs don't really look all that bad even for educated folk. Regardless, "Polish plumbers" is as much of a concern of anti-immigrant Brits as refugees. That is absolutely not true.
1) "Polish plumbers" is a stereotype but it is a positive stereotype.
2) UK is not part of the Schengen Zone. Most refugees in UK are accepted refugees, or are otherwise unrelated to the refugee crisis.
I don't know why you consistently type utter bullshit legalord, but it is getting rather wearisome.
|
LL is the sputnik news of Teamliquid, whatever is the newst anti-EU talking point in Russian news is going to come your way here, it's not new. Of course Polish people (or anybody else for that matter) doing hard work abroad isn't a concern.
Also ironically all the rage was about Polish migrants a few years ago, the Polish plumber was mentionned daily for months in France, whereas it's notoriously hard to get a plumber fast
given the demographic development it's not surprising, we've large problems filling infrastructure projects during peak times because we're hitting capacity on the labour force in manual construction. This of course is also immigration that we need, we don't just need highly qualified workers. Other area is services in the healtcare industry. Elderly care and so on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dHrmJFg.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rllqs6L.png)
