EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 661
| Forum Index > General Forum |
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
|
DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
| ||
|
Acrofales
Spain17834 Posts
On February 09 2017 23:00 DickMcFanny wrote: Yes, we have no way of knowing exact stats. What we do know is that migrants do usually get a free pass when they commit violent crimes. [citation needed] | ||
|
stilt
France2736 Posts
On February 09 2017 01:21 nojok wrote: It would be interesting to see the results if the question was only about immigrants without specifying a religion and also if there was a difference made between refugees and economical migrants. As a nurse, it's a bit weird because French hospitals would not work without North African doctors, they're a huge proportion of our doctors, at least in the most impoverished regions. I think it's also true for a lots of jobs people don't want to do. Also ironically all the rage was about Polish migrants a few years ago, the Polish plumber was mentionned daily for months in France, whereas it's notoriously hard to get a plumber fast. The lack of doctors in France si also dued to the ridiculous exams... Moreover, being a generalist is socially (and in most cases, economically) not as good as being a specialist so most of ppl try to avoid doing this, that's why there is a need of foreign medecins, but otherwise a lot of ppl wish to have this particular job. Oh, and the rage over migrants coming from the east seem more like 30s rather than "a few years ago" or I missed sth big. | ||
|
LightSpectra
United States1128 Posts
On February 09 2017 23:00 DickMcFanny wrote: Yes, we have no way of knowing exact stats. What we do know is that migrants do usually get a free pass when they commit violent crimes. LOL. You can't be serious. Your first sentence directly contradicts the second. | ||
|
Laurens
Belgium4514 Posts
Detailing his week, Mr Springare said he had dealt with a number of serious rapes, assaults, blackmail, murder attempt, abuse and violence against the police. He added: “Half of the suspects, we can't be sure because they don't have any valid papers. Which in itself usually means that they're lying about their nationality and identity. Now we are only talking about Örebro municipality.” Controversy erupted across Sweden following the Facebook post, with some hailing the police officer, as a hero, while Sweden's Prime Minister moved swiftly to discredit his statement. On Tuesday Stefan Löfven said: "I don't know what it looks like in Örebro, but from a broader perspective I have a very hard time believing 100 per cent of police investigation resources are spend on crimes committed by immigrants. I would say that it is wrong." "I'm trying to point out a problem within the police force because I believe we are losing control over it. We are unable to tackle it, this violent crime." Thousands have rushed to defend Mr Springare after he took to social media to share his exasperation and a Facebook group, called 'Stand up for Peter Springare' has gained more than 121,000 members. One user, who claimed to work for the police in Stockholm, the Swedish capital, said Mr Springare had told the truth. Oskar Tallryd wrote: "What he says is no exaggeration or lie, this is my everyday. This is many police officers everyday life." Source for the above (warning: annoying ad movie starts playing): www.express.co.uk Shorter article without audio:www.thelocal.se I do think that authorities are trying to downplay exactly how many crimes are being committed by immigrants. You could see this for the first time in Koln on Silvester 2015. Source: en.wikipedia.org Here the police tried to actively hide the fact that the suspects were foreign. On 5 January, shortly after the assaults, Cologne mayor Henriette Reker said in a press conference that there was "no evidence that people who are residing in Cologne as refugees are amongst the perpetrators". Cologne's police president, Wolfgang Albers, stated that "the police has no knowledge about the offenders". On 7 January, several anonymous police officers from Cologne denied statements that the police did not know the nationality of the perpetrators; they told the press that "most of them" would have been freshly arrived asylum seekers. Contradicting statements from Cologne police leaders, these officers said that the identities of many people, including those who were arrested, had been thoroughly checked, so that police knew which groups of people were involved. On 8 January, the Federal Ministry of the Interior acknowledged that two-thirds of the suspects checked by the Federal Police—who are responsible for the railways and railway stations in Germany—in Cologne were asylum seekers. The same report stated that 31 suspects were identified by name, including 18 asylum seekers. In total, the suspects were nine Algerians, eight Moroccans, four Syrians, five Iranians, two Germans, an Iraqi, a Serb, and an American.[41] Another report on the same day stated that stolen mobile phones were located by the police within or in the vicinity of refugees' residences.[69] You can scroll down on that wiki page for a section about the situation in Sweden. Honestly this trend of trying to cover up crimes by refugees is a terrible idea, when it eventually surfaces people are even more outraged. | ||
|
LightSpectra
United States1128 Posts
| ||
|
Laurens
Belgium4514 Posts
On February 10 2017 00:40 LightSpectra wrote: Can you actually prove that refugee crimes are in fact being covered up, or are you just saying that in a "everyone knows" kind of way? My above post already contains proof of one such instance, no? Do you dispute that the Koln police tried to cover up the Silvester night crimes? Similar story in Sweden: www.theguardian.com www.nytimes.com | ||
zatic
Zurich15313 Posts
On February 10 2017 00:40 LightSpectra wrote: Can you actually prove that refugee crimes are in fact being covered up, or are you just saying that in a "everyone knows" kind of way? Seriously. Out of the 10 or so pages of text about Cologne, the closest thing to a "coverup by the authorities" is Mrs. Rieker saying they had no information on the origin of the perpertrators on Jan 5. Which was corrected 2 days later. That's the entire "coverup". The only other thing was the city chief of police trying to get around resigning for the colossal failure to manage the situation. Which took a total of 5 (?) days. The rest of the authorities, including city police, federal police, federal police union, ministry of justice, were obviousy not part of this alleged "coverup". It's been over a year, it's time to bury this legend of a giant conspiracy to cover up rapes by every authority in Germany. | ||
|
LightSpectra
United States1128 Posts
On February 10 2017 00:59 Laurens wrote: My above post already contains proof of one such instance, no? Do you dispute that the Koln police tried to cover up the Silvester night crimes? Similar story in Sweden: www.theguardian.com www.nytimes.com Even if this is as you say it was, that's one (putative) cover-up. That is certainly not proof of a grand conspiracy to shield the public from believing an army of rapists is inside the walls. | ||
|
DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
A page or two before I gave the example of an Arab who was killed in a 'hate crime'. Now if you read that, don't you think it was a right wing shitbag being the murderer? But the killer was Syrian. When a welfare migrant shelter was burnt down in August, the press talked about 'politically motivated'. Well, turned out the arsonist was a migrant, his 'political motivation' was literally that there wasn't enough candy. Even if you chalk up the violent crimes and petty thefts to the circumstances of immigration, which certainly take a toll on anyone, why is it fashionable to completely disregard the safety and well-being of the domestic population? Why can our government say: 'Okay, ten thousand rapes and a hundred murders a year are a reasonable price to pay.' Out of the million migrants, 30.000 have found jobs. So that's 3%. The rest of them are being fed, clothed, healed, sheltered and educated by German tax payers. We're not a poor country, but wages are comparatively low, and when the average household has 600 Euro less a year, the poorest will feel it the hardest. It's mostly not the migrants' fault that they can't compete on the job market. Obviously. A majority of them are illiterate in their own language, let alone German or English. When we were told that most of the 'refugees' would be doctors and engineers, because they had university degrees, one fact was left out: most of those so called degrees were in Islamic studies. Yes, there is a hand full of legitimate refugees who need a hand until they become productive members of our society. But honestly, most of them will never work here, will always live on the dole and have no interest in learning things they consider haram. Also, if you're from the US, you don't know what you're talking about. Muslims in the US aren't there to get welfare, they're there because they want to work and live 'the American dream'. They're well integrated, better educated and higher earning than the average American, and they're about 50/50 men and women. None of this is true for European welfare migrants. Now I keep using that term because I think 'refugee' is pure propaganda. Fuck that. They stopped being refugees EIGHT national borders ago. They're NOT fleeing political persecution in Greece. They're NOT escaping from genocide in Turkey, famine in Romania or war in Austria. They're mostly men, they go to the countries that pay the most welfare, and most of them go back on holidays to the countries they supposedly fled from. Yes, they come to Germany, the UK or Sweden, get on the dole and then literally fly back to Afghanistan for vacation. How is that a refugee? | ||
|
Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
I mean even if those 3% are actual Neil Tyson, Richard Dawkins and Elon Must type op ppl but obviously they're not...All the rest 97% may become a reason of social instability and economical harm | ||
|
DickMcFanny
Ireland1076 Posts
On February 10 2017 03:21 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: 3% per million? that sounds weird I mean even if those 3% are actual Neil Tyson, Richard Dawkins and Elon Must type op ppl but obviously they're not...All the rest 97% may become a reason of social instability and economical harm Ah nevermind those stats, those are fake news from the right wing fascist rag 'Der Spiegel'. I'm being sarcastic. Our callous open door policy has already cost us one of our most important allies, a host of civil liberties, is dividing the EU as well as the member states from within, has cost countless of lives, has destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of rape victims and will likely be the end of our union. But we just have to swallow that because hey, we wouldn't be thought of as Nazis! | ||
|
LightSpectra
United States1128 Posts
If you can show a scientific study on behalf of a nonpartisan institute which clearly shows that immigrants commit significantly more crimes/leach our welfare/whatever, then maybe I'll give it some credit. But going into insane rants about a grand conspiracy to hide the truth isn't going to persuade anybody but the easily fooled. | ||
|
FerMi_92
4 Posts
On February 10 2017 03:14 DickMcFanny wrote: If you knew any German at all, you could read articles from Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, die Welt, FAZ, the entire spectrum of German press and they all have in common that they jump through hoops to hide whenever a crime has been committed by a welfare migrant. They talk about the crime, but they will describe the perpetrator only as a "Mann". They talk about his approximate age, and they're sure to mention his home town when he's born in Germany. For the german society the right to privacy is of utmost importance. Normally no full names of criminals are printed or shown in tv, newspapers etc.. E.g. even years after the bosten marathon bombing attack the newspapers don't print the name, because it has to be in the interest of the public (for example when they are searching for a suspect and the name helps people to identify, which it normally doesn't). Obviously in the eyes of the justice system everybody is equal, so origin or faith shouldn't play any role. A page or two before I gave the example of an Arab who was killed in a 'hate crime'. Now if you read that, don't you think it was a right wing shitbag being the murderer? But the killer was Syrian. I don't know which case you refer to, but there is certainly a lot of tensions between the different religious denominations in syria and therefor in german refugee camps (Alawites, Shia Islam, Sunni etc.), so it is entirely possible that a syrian sunni kills a Alawi "out of hate". Guess what, the war in syria is basically a civil war which is mailny fueled by religious disagreements. When a welfare migrant shelter was burnt down in August, the press talked about 'politically motivated'. Well, turned out the arsonist was a migrant, his 'political motivation' was literally that there wasn't enough candy. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/fluechtlingsheime-bundeskriminalamt-zaehlt-mehr-als-1000-attacken-a-1074448.html According to the BKA in 2015 901 out of 1005 arsons had a clear right-wing extremist background. I don't know which article you're referring to. Of course even with this overwhelmingly one-sided statistic it is not right thing to assume the background. But to cherry pick this one case doesn't quite paint the most realistic picture of the situation. Even if you chalk up the violent crimes and petty thefts to the circumstances of immigration, which certainly take a toll on anyone, why is it fashionable to completely disregard the safety and well-being of the domestic population? "completely disregard" heavily implies that nothing is done by the officials. btw, do you think well-being of the domestic population is of bigger importance than the well-being of everyone in this country? Why can our government say: 'Okay, ten thousand rapes and a hundred murders a year are a reasonable price to pay.' Where does it say that? Out of the million migrants, 30.000 have found jobs. So that's 3%. The rest of them are being fed, clothed, healed, sheltered and educated by German tax payers. We're not a poor country, but wages are comparatively low, and when the average household has 600 Euro less a year, the poorest will feel it the hardest. It's mostly not the migrants' fault that they can't compete on the job market. Obviously. A majority of them are illiterate in their own language, let alone German or English. When we were told that most of the 'refugees' would be doctors and engineers, because they had university degrees, one fact was left out: most of those so called degrees were in Islamic studies. Yes, there is a hand full of legitimate refugees who need a hand until they become productive members of our society. But honestly, most of them will never work here, will always live on the dole and have no interest in learning things they consider haram. ![[image loading]](http://abload.de/img/reallhnej3s8r.png) The wages have been rising for the past couple of years, what are you talking about? Sure, I would prefer it when the amount of refugees would be split among the EU members, but I'd rather welcome them at Germany than letting them decay in a tent in Hungary. btw, 30000 is the number for 2015. Also, if you're from the US, you don't know what you're talking about. Muslims in the US aren't there to get welfare, they're there because they want to work and live 'the American dream'. They're well integrated, better educated and higher earning than the average American, and they're about 50/50 men and women. None of this is true for European welfare migrants. So you're saying that you're ok with refugees casing the american dream but refugees casing the european/german dream are not welcome? wtf?! btw the reason why the refugees in america are more educated then European ones is simply because it is way more complicated and expensive to get there and to get a stay permit in the US. Most of the time they prioritize based on skill and religion. Now I keep using that term because I think 'refugee' is pure propaganda. Fuck that. They stopped being refugees EIGHT national borders ago. They're NOT fleeing political persecution in Greece. They're NOT escaping from genocide in Turkey, famine in Romania or war in Austria. They're mostly men, they go to the countries that pay the most welfare, and most of them go back on holidays to the countries they supposedly fled from. Yes, they come to Germany, the UK or Sweden, get on the dole and then literally fly back to Afghanistan for vacation. How is that a refugee? So Greece and Italy should fend for a few million refugees on their own? Sound like a great idea. | ||
|
FerMi_92
4 Posts
| ||
|
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 10 2017 03:14 DickMcFanny wrote: If you knew any German at all, you could read articles from Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, die Welt, FAZ, the entire spectrum of German press and they all have in common that they jump through hoops to hide whenever a crime has been committed by a welfare migrant. They talk about the crime, but they will describe the perpetrator only as a "Mann". They talk about his approximate age, and they're sure to mention his home town when he's born in Germany. You're not discovering some great conspiracy here, this is and has been the standard of the German (self imposed) press code for decades. Relevant section: + Show Spoiler + Section 12 DISCRIMINATION There must be no discrimination against a person because of his/her sex, a disability or his membership of an ethnic, religious, social or national group. GUIDELINE 12.1 REPORTS ON CRIMES When reporting crimes, it is not permissible to refer to the suspect‘s religious, ethnic or other minority membership unless this information can be justified as being relevant to the readers‘ understanding of the incident. In particular, it must be borne in mind that such references could stir up prejudices against minorities https://www.presserat.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Downloads_Dateien/Pressekodex13english_web.pdf | ||
|
FerMi_92
4 Posts
On February 10 2017 05:14 Nyxisto wrote: You're not discovering some great conspiracy here, this is and has been the standard of the German (self imposed) press code for decades. Relevant section: + Show Spoiler + Section 12 DISCRIMINATION There must be no discrimination against a person because of his/her sex, a disability or his membership of an ethnic, religious, social or national group. GUIDELINE 12.1 REPORTS ON CRIMES When reporting crimes, it is not permissible to refer to the suspect‘s religious, ethnic or other minority membership unless this information can be justified as being relevant to the readers‘ understanding of the incident. In particular, it must be borne in mind that such references could stir up prejudices against minorities https://www.presserat.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Downloads_Dateien/Pressekodex13english_web.pdf Thanks, that is what is was looking for. I would add: + Show Spoiler + Section 8 PROTECTION OF THE PERSONALITY The Press shall respect the private life of a person and his/her right to self-determination about personal information. However, if a person‘s behaviour is of public interest, it may be discussed by the Press. In the case of identifying reporting, the public interest in information must outweigh the interests worthy of protection of the persons involved; sensational interests alone do not justify identifying reporting. As far as an anonymization is required, it must be effective. The Press guarantees editorial data protection | ||
|
Artisreal
Germany9234 Posts
at least that's how it feels to me | ||
|
Silvanel
Poland4691 Posts
On February 10 2017 05:14 Nyxisto wrote: You're not discovering some great conspiracy here, this is and has been the standard of the German (self imposed) press code for decades. Relevant section: + Show Spoiler + Section 12 DISCRIMINATION There must be no discrimination against a person because of his/her sex, a disability or his membership of an ethnic, religious, social or national group. GUIDELINE 12.1 REPORTS ON CRIMES When reporting crimes, it is not permissible to refer to the suspect‘s religious, ethnic or other minority membership unless this information can be justified as being relevant to the readers‘ understanding of the incident. In particular, it must be borne in mind that such references could stir up prejudices against minorities https://www.presserat.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Downloads_Dateien/Pressekodex13english_web.pdf Well actualy this passage "unless this information can be justified as being relevant to the readers‘ understanding of the incident." can easily be interpreted as applying in such cases. I mean ithe information about perpetrator nationality is important while there is ongoing discussion about accepting migrants/refugees. Especially so if You apply right wing optic. I guess the practice in German press and relavant court rulings are different but the literal wording of the guidelines leaves some space. | ||
|
Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 10 2017 00:59 Laurens wrote: My above post already contains proof of one such instance, no? Do you dispute that the Koln police tried to cover up the Silvester night crimes? Similar story in Sweden: www.theguardian.com www.nytimes.com we don't like things like public statements from some offical about how something was obviously X, Y or Z only to find out a couple days later that the attack was something else. Especially if there's no retraction to that, as it turned out wrong, claim afterwards. So no, I don't think the police in Köln tried to cover up anything. iirc they've pretty much said that they don't have enough information to make assertive statements the first couple days and that's fine in my book. | ||
| ||
