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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
I am not quite sure what your problem here is. A criminal kicked a woman down the stairs. The police has a video, and releases it asking whether people know the person kicking her. A guy on a bus recognizes the person, and he gets arrested. Isn't that the result you would want? And no, we don't have Stasi archives anymore. We prefer it that way. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
I mean he was caught. What is it you are trying to say? | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On December 21 2016 08:02 maybenexttime wrote: We've seen many protests because the opposition decided to portray itself as a "total opposition" and contest everything PiS does. The fact that you bring up "women's reproductive rights" is very telling. Our opposition (save for Kukiz'15) chose a strategy of slinging shit and hoping something sticks. The abortion debacle is a prime example of that. PiS was not behind the proposed new law. Anyone with a clue knows that passing this law was not in PiS's interest as this would only appease a small minority of their voters and alienate a considerably bigger portion. And you'd be surprised how corrupt the previous government was... You disgust me. What is bigger corruption, having a watch worth 4k euro not in your tax statement or ruining this country economically by this bullshit 500+ just so you can sit your buddies on all gov controlled companies. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5571 Posts
On December 21 2016 18:49 opisska wrote: The rhetoric of "government is corrupt, something needs to be done with it" is an extremely dangerous one, as is any other attempt to steer elections on a single issue. In Czech Republic, the current leading party (ANO) has risen to prominence exactly on this - every politician is corrupt, they are different, their leader is not a politician but a hard working businessman, the corruption is everywhere and needs to be purged. So far, this businessman has made several billions extra since the election on state subsidies and his policies are quickly destroying most of his competition. Yet he still has overwhelming support, because he is kicking the butts of the previous corrupt politicians! I disagree that this rhetoric applies to PiS. You could make an argument that it applies to Korwin-Mikke and his party, as he's repeatedly claimed that all politicians are corrupt thieves. But PiS is far from monothematic. It offers a comprehensive political platform. To say that they simply rode the "government is corrupt, something needs to be done with it" wave and won is disingenuous. The fact that corruption of the previous government was a major topic of the last political campaign was simply the result of evidence of the scale of corruption that surfaced around that time. During the wiretapping affair we learned that the Minister of Internal Affairs (Bartłomiej Sienkiewicz) complained that the strategic investment program was a gigantic waste of money (confirmed by the Supreme Audit Office, NIK), that the government let PSL have a field day in the public mining industry for seven years (at that time) leading it to a collapse, the Minister of Internal Affairs striking a deal with the President of National Bank of Poland (helping the government with populist measures before the elections in exchange for sacking the Minister of Finance, Jacek Rostowski), a major corruption scandal regarding the implementation IT solutions in the public sectors (HP and IBM bribed several decision makers to win the tender), the gambling affair, etc. I could go on and on. PO-PSL also mishandled so many issues. E.g. most (?) of the Polish sub-contractors building the roads/highways for Euro 2012 went bankrupt, the subsidy for people taking mortgages simply funneled money to the real estate developers, the shale gas fiasco, and so on. The point is, that there is no easy solution. Real democratic politics comes from democratic parties, built from ground up, from the individual members and local organizations. You can't just throw those out, vote a strong leader and think it's gonna work out. I agree. I would say that is probably the key flaw of PiS. But it was equally true of PO, if not more so. The fact that the party imploded right after Donald Tusk moved to Brussels is a testament to that. The only two parties that use that bottom-up approach are PSL and Kukiz'15 (not technically a political party, but still). The problem is that PSL is rotten to the core due to corruption, and Kukiz'15 is only unified around its contestation of the establishment and is otherwise internally divided. It is exactly the same as with the migration issues: quick solutions are shouted loudly by people who just want power, while actual solutions mean slow and systematic work. I don't see how that applies to PiS. They offered both short term and long term solutions. On December 21 2016 22:07 Narw wrote: You disgust me. What is bigger corruption, having a watch worth 4k euro not in your tax statement or ruining this country economically by this bullshit 500+ just so you can sit your buddies on all gov controlled companies. Don't get so emotional, sweetie. You are willfully ignorant if you think the previous government's corruption is limited to Sławomir Nowak lying in his tax statement. I am not defending PiS placing their people in charge of the government controlled companies, quite the contrary, but were you making such a fuss when PO-PSL were doing the same? As for 500+, we'll have to see whether it will actually ruin the budget. The proposed tax reforms look very promising and have the potential to significantly reduce tax evasion. Other than that, we can certainly say that 500+ has significantly reduced poverty, especially among children. It's also amusing how the opposition is calling this program populist, while promising to give 500 PLN for every child after the next election. Also, if this is a populist program (in a pejorative sense), does that mean that Western Europe has been ruled by populists for the past several decades? Because compared to their countries, Poland has no welfare state to speak of... | ||
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farvacola
United States18828 Posts
The party's views on social issues are much more traditionalist than those of conservative parties in other European countries. The vast majority of members of the party favors restrictions on abortion in most cases including fetal defects, rape or incest, which is already illegal in extraordinary circumstances. It is also against euthanasia, sexual education and in the past the party proposed complete ban of in-vitro fertilisation. It opposes same-sex marriages or any other form of legal recognition of homosexual couples. The PiS are highly critical of homosexuality, sex and violence in the media. Is this true? | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
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farvacola
United States18828 Posts
 ). Furthermore, I'm literally asking if something it says is true and am not referencing it with any sort of authority, so while I appreciate your words of caution, they aren't really relevant here. That all said, I still wanna know just how socially conservative PiS is  | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 21 2016 22:35 MyTHicaL wrote: As a general rule of thumb you shouldn't be getting your information from wikipedia. There's a reason why it is completely banned from being cited in university papers. Good thing this forum isn't an academic conference then? Plus he's even asking confirmation from Polish folks around here. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4544 Posts
On December 21 2016 22:35 MyTHicaL wrote: As a general rule of thumb you shouldn't be getting your information from wikipedia. There's a reason why it is completely banned from being cited in university papers. Lol where did you get that from. People will frown when they see a Wikipedia citation, but it is certainly not banned. Other than the History department at Middlebury college, apparently. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5571 Posts
On December 21 2016 22:21 farvacola wrote: Because I don't know much about PiS, I did some research and came across this on wikipedia. Is this true? 1) Restrictions on abortion in most cases, including fetal defects, rape or incest - FALSE. It was discussed in this very thread at length. PiS voted against such law. Edit: Does not mean they support making it completely legal. The above mentioned cases are the legally valid reasons for getting an abortion in Poland. PiS supports this solution, as do most political parties in Poland and the majority of the population. 2) Opposition to euthanasia - afaik TRUE, but PiS does not oppose withholding futile therapy. 3) I believe that people opposing sex education are a fringe element in PiS, but I could be wrong. 4) Afaik PiS was only against destroying fertilized eggs, not in-vitro fertilization. 5) They do oppose same-sex marriages. They were divided when it comes to some form of legal recognition, iirc. | ||
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farvacola
United States18828 Posts
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Tassadar2
4 Posts
I don't know what you are talking about right now (don't have the time to read it right now), but I just want to give my 2 cents about the terrorist attack in Berlin on monday (if it was a terrorist attack, but it seems like it). As a german I want to assure you that we will stay strong and calm and continue to work hard (and more importantly efficiently) and live our lifes as we see fit. We will mourn our fellow citizens who died and will obviously change a few things in the future to avoid potential attacks in the future (if that's even possible). But we will not forget who we are and what we stand for. Freedom, Democracy, Rationality, etc., etc.. So don't worry about the stability of our country! Have a nice day, Robert | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
On December 21 2016 22:50 maybenexttime wrote: 1) Restrictions on abortion in most cases, including fetal defects, rape or incest - FALSE. It was discussed in this very thread at length. PiS voted against such law. Edit: Does not mean they support making it completely legal. The above mentioned cases are the legally valid reasons for getting an abortion in Poland. PiS supports this solution, as do most political parties in Poland and the majority of the population. 2) Opposition to euthanasia - afaik TRUE, but PiS does not oppose withholding futile therapy. 3) I believe that people opposing sex education are a fringe element in PiS, but I could be wrong. 4) Afaik PiS was only against destroying fertilized eggs, not in-vitro fertilization. 5) They do oppose same-sex marriages. They were divided when it comes to some form of legal recognition, iirc. Oh my lord, you continue. In Podlasie you can't get legal abortion. Period, you can't, this can't happen. Doctors are forced to sign the so called "Consience clausule" which states in short they won't do anything that stands against their believs. Hospitals are financed thru local governments, Even if theoreticly law allows you to get abortion, you won't get it, cause there is no one to do it there. Podlasie is full on PiS ahead district of Poland. You don't sign that stuff, you won't get job. Hospitals don't "convince" their employes to sign that shit, they risk getting their funding cut. No cash = no hospital = no work for doctors there. This is the level of hypocrisy i have to deal on daily phasis, this is the level hypocrisy PiS presents on so many levels. If not EU they would prolly just go full ahead and drove it, but sadly they need to care about getting EU funds.. And it's getting more and more transparent the futher ahead they are, cause no one stops em, Constitutional Tribunal got dismantled, opposition is so weak it hurts even looking at it, their leaders meaningless. And a hint, social benefits are enormous in many western countries (a mistake in my oppinion). States that can afford it without ruining the budget. PS. Fuck you for wasting my time on politics. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9199 Posts
On December 21 2016 22:21 farvacola wrote: Because I don't know much about PiS, I did some research and came across this on wikipedia. Is this true? Most of it is true. Can't judge the last sentence becasue it's too general. They don't like gays but they don't actively harass them like Russians with their ban on "gay propaganda". I guess you can say they're similar to Ted Cruz socially. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5571 Posts
On December 21 2016 23:17 Narw wrote: Oh my lord, you continue. In Podlasie you can't get legal abortion. Period, you can't, this can't happen. Doctors are forced to sign the so called "Consience clausule" which states in short they won't do anything that stands against their believs. Hospitals are financed thru local governments, Even if theoreticly law allows you to get abortion, you won't get it, cause there is no one to do it there. Podlasie is full on PiS ahead district of Poland. You don't sign that stuff, you won't get job. Hospitals don't "convince" their employes to sign that shit, they risk getting their funding cut. No cash = no hospital = no work for doctors there. This is the level of hypocrisy i have to deal on daily phasis, this is the level hypocrisy PiS presents on so many levels. If not EU they would prolly just go full ahead and drove it, but sadly they need to care about getting EU funds.. And it's getting more and more transparent the futher ahead they are, cause no one stops em, Constitutional Tribunal got dismantled, opposition is so weak it hurts even looking at it, their leaders meaningless. And a hint, social benefits are enormous in many western countries (a mistake in my oppinion). States that can afford it without ruining the budget. PS. Fuck you for wasting my time on politics. You're taking a very specific, not well populated region of Poland (barely one million of people in a country of 38 million people) that's a bastion of the fringe element in PiS, and then extrapolate it to the whole country. I'm sorry that women in Podlasie cannot get an abortion for legally valid reasons, and I think this should be fixed. But this is not how it works in the whole country. As for the Constitutional Tribunal, both sides of this debacle were right and wrong to some degree. The Tribunal never worked properly, none of the governments respected its verdicts (they either executed them or ignored them for a long time, whichever was more politically expedient), and the Tribunal has always been very politicized and on at least several occasions made arbitrary judgements that had no basis in the constitution. And whether Western European countries can afford such robust social benefits and whether Poland can afford a more robust welfare system are both up for debate. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4730 Posts
Also they might not ban some things they don't like but that doesn't stop them from defunding it or puting in place some administrative obstacles (like with invitro for example). If i had to characterize PiS shortly i would say they are pragmatic and conservative with whole bunch of hostile and agressive rhetoric meant to please their base. They will also do everything to stay in power. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Mind you, I am still talking about a country with zero history of Islamic terrorism a virtually no refugees present (as even those that we try to accept, run to Germany anyway). This is the "security populism" in its purest form. | ||
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Tassadar2
4 Posts
On December 22 2016 00:10 opisska wrote: On the topic of overreaction to terrorism: in Brno, the second largest city in Czech Republic, they have blocked the entrance to the main square provisionally with a fire cistern, in order to prevent a similar attack to the Berlin one. Tramways have been removed from the idea and a barrier is in construction. Mind you, I am still talking about a country with zero history of Islamic terrorism a virtually no refugees present (as even those that we try to accept, run to Germany anyway). This is the "security populism" in its purest form. Such nonsense! (what you are describing, not your post itself) Somehow I get the impression other states are reacting stronger to what happened in berlin than germany. In germany of course the police is alarmed and yes, there are a few idiots who are spouting nonsense, but in general people are calm as f*ck. :-D PS: what was wrong with my post above? Just that I wrote, that I didn't read the discussion you are having right now, or did I make another mistake? I hope you don't mind me asking. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On December 22 2016 00:18 Tassadar2 wrote: Such nonsense! (what you are describing, not your post itself) Somehow I get the impression other states are reacting stronger to what happened in berlin than germany. In germany of course the police is alarmed and yes, there are a few idiots who are spouting nonsense, but in general people are calm as f*ck. :-D PS: what was wrong with my post above? Just that I wrote, that I didn't read the discussion you are having right now, or did I make another mistake? I hope you don't mind me asking. Why do you think anything was wrong with your post? Did you receive some negative messages? Because as far as I can see nobody reacted to it negatively - well nobody reacted at all, but that can be essentially seen as agreement, on TL it is generally not usual to provide agreeable responses explicitly. | ||
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