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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
About the US owning us: This is not true. One could argue Germans used to own us because their corporations controlled a lot of our media but that would still be a strech because most of our media is still locally owned and their journalists just happen to be pro-german which is not the same as literally taking orders from Berlin. Americans don't have even that kind of influence in our media.
We buy arms from both the US and Western Europe so it's definitely not like the US own us in that field too. We just buy American stuff when our government is pro-american (like overpriced f-16s in the pre-iraq era of unconditional trust in America) and Western European stuff when our government is pro-european (like we almost bought overpriced French helicopters recently, new pro-american government cancelled that deal). I guess xMZ is right in that if somehow NATO dissolved and we somehow had to choose between American and Western suppliers we would probably choose Americans.
I don't think it's much different in Czech republic or Slovakia.
xMZ needs to work on his <something> because he keeps triggering confusing arguments where nobody understands what the other side tries to say lol.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 13 2016 23:49 Sent. wrote:
We buy arms from both the US and Western Europe so it's definitely not like the US own us in that field too. We just buy American stuff when our government is pro-american (like overpriced f-16s in the pre-iraq era of unconditional trust in America) and Western European stuff when our government is pro-european (like we almost bought overpriced French helicopters recently, new pro-american government cancelled that deal). I guess xMZ is right in that if somehow NATO dissolved and we somehow had to choose between American and Western suppliers we would probably choose Americans.
Starting to see a pattern here  .
Poland is an interesting case in that it definitely isn't "owned" by anyone, but it certainly isn't independent either. It's sandwiched between two great power nations, each of which has the potential to be hostile, and it isn't strong enough to stand on its own. So it has to make alliances with that in mind.
But yeah, if anything NATO forces people to buy American military hardware to a much larger extent than it would if it didn't exist. There's always a European option but "European" is an entity with far less solidarity than some would like to believe and it has its own set of problems (and a lot of the issues people might have with US military hardware are pretty much the exact same ones that "European" tech has).
Any country with a substantial military industry generally wants to sell their best weapons to countries that will not be inclined to use those weapons against their political interests and that involves some degree of alliance. For example, Russia or the US or anyone else would be happy to sell their older stuff (or "export grade" mediocre variants) to just about anyone because military production works better at scale than when they produce only a few units. But their best stuff is reserved mostly for countries that are reliably aligned with their military/political interests. France has tried to make an effort of selling good stuff to people beyond their circle of alliance but that's worked out quite badly. Between reneging on weapons sales to Israel, cancelling the Mistral deal, and I'm sure plenty of other cases, I'd be surprised if any non-ally nations would really want to buy weapons from them again (India has certainly expressed reservations about buying Rafales from France as well). So an alliance that is less US-centric would be less inclined to purchase US hardware.
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So which is it? NATO nations are forced to buy American hardwar or if NATO dissolves or former NATO countries will be forced to buy American hardware? Stop contradicting yourself.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Edit: I'm just going to nope out of responding to you in general, I see no benefit from it.
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On November 14 2016 01:34 LegalLord wrote:
Edit: I'm just going to nope out of responding to you in general, I see no benefit from it.
Pretty much what a lot of people has done when it comes to this guy.
Dangermouse always had a serious problem with reading comprehension, i stopped replying to him also.
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Belgium4548 Posts
r/the_donald has moved on to r/le_pen and the first posts are reaching the frontpage of reddit already.
The EU is about to collapse due to meme magic. What a time to be alive.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
2016 has been one hell of a year. What other beauties will the next two months deliver?
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On November 14 2016 02:57 Laurens wrote:
r/the_donald has moved on to r/le_pen and the first posts are reaching the frontpage of reddit already.
The EU is about to collapse due to meme magic. What a time to be alive.
It's won't be easy to continue this memetic warfare in non English speaking countries.
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On November 14 2016 02:57 Laurens wrote:
r/the_donald has moved on to r/le_pen and the first posts are reaching the frontpage of reddit already.
The EU is about to collapse due to meme magic. What a time to be alive.
Whether Le Pen will win or lose will be entirely unassisted by some forum spam in English. If anything it's more likely to annoy than to persuade, but the visibility is too low for it to have even a negative effect.
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On November 14 2016 02:57 Laurens wrote:
r/the_donald has moved on to r/le_pen and the first posts are reaching the frontpage of reddit already.
The EU is about to collapse due to meme magic. What a time to be alive.
The market for far right sites is already saturated in France. We call it the fachosphère.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
I'm absolutely not worried about France being able to muster up an adequate quantity of memetic experts for the job. Not at all.
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the mistral cancelled deal didn't harm as we could think french military industrial complex, more it has been a record year actually
the main reason it's hard to get deal from nations other than the one you are dealing with usually is the predominant position of the US which is extremely hard to deal with, it's no secret
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On November 14 2016 02:57 Laurens wrote:
r/the_donald has moved on to r/le_pen and the first posts are reaching the frontpage of reddit already.
The EU is about to collapse due to meme magic. What a time to be alive.
It's the 6th international : the international of the filth.
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Bulgarian Socialist ally Rumen Radev, a Russia-friendly newcomer to politics, won Sunday's presidential election by a large margin, exit polls showed, possibly paving the way for months of political instability in the small Black Sea state.
A former air force commander, Radev campaigned on strong anti-migrant rhetoric and an argument that it was in the country's interest to find a balance between the requirements of its European Union membership and better ties with Russia.
Radev, 53, backed by the opposition Socialists, won 58.1-58.5 percent of the vote, compared with 35.3-35.7 percent for Tsetska Tsacheva, the 58-year-old candidate of the ruling centre-right GERB party, the polls showed.
The general's strong showing could undermine the minority government of Prime Minister Boiko Borisov, who has signaled he may resign if Radev wins the election.
If he doesn't, opposition groupings could call for a parliamentary no-confidence vote in his cabinet.
"The main conclusion is that hope and desire for change won over fear, which both Borisov and GERB tried to propagate," said Zhelyo Boichev, a senior Socialist party politician.
Radev has benefited from discontent with the government over his perceived failure to make significant progress in rooting out corruption, as well as slow public-sector reforms.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bulgaria-election-idUSKBN13801Q
And Borisov just quit
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On November 14 2016 04:03 Makro wrote:
the mistral cancelled deal didn't harm as we could think french military industrial complex, more it has been a record year actually
the main reason it's hard to get deal from nations other than the one you are dealing with usually is the predominant position of the US which is extremely hard to deal with, it's no secret
Surprisingly the Mistral deal was canceled quite amicably, all things considered. It probably helps that Russia probably came out ahead for that cancellation, and France didn't get stuck with too many fees. I've heard questionable successes about the Rafale sales though, with some deals being downsized for one reason or other and other countries being worried about the Mistral issue.
The Cherbourg incident with Israel was probably a bigger deal than the Mistral, all things considered. It was 47 years ago but there does seem to be a pattern of inconsistency in French sales to non-allies.
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A pro-Russian candidate for president of Moldova has won the race, preliminary results showed on Sunday, following a campaign in which he vowed to slam the brakes on seven years of closer integration with the European Union.
With 98 percent of votes counted, online results showed Socialist candidate Igor Dodon had won 54 percent, and his pro-European challenger, Maia Sandu, had just under 45 percent.
Dodon's win is in part a reflection of a loss of trust in pro-European leaders in the ex-Soviet state of 3.5 million, which was plunged into political and economic crisis after a corruption scandal came to light in late 2014.
"I am president for the whole country, for those who voted for me and those who voted against," Dodon said in a short briefing to journalists.
In another potential blow to the European Union brand, Bulgaria - which also held a presidential vote on Sunday - elected a pro-Russian candidate by a large margin, according to exit polls.
The president in Moldova is more than just a figurehead: he or she can return laws to parliament and dissolve the assembly in certain situations.
Dodon's promise to pursue closer ties with Russia rather than the European Union is in direct conflict with the pro-European stance of the current government.
Prime Minister Pavel Filip said the two sides would need to work together in Moldova's best interest.
"This includes key reforms needed for the country's modernization and continued EU path, which cannot be reversed," he said in emailed comments after polls closed.
Squeezed between Ukraine and EU member Romania, Moldova signed a political and trade agreement with the European bloc in 2014 that damaged its ties with Moscow, which imposed trade restrictions on Moldovan farming exports.
Dodon's Socialist party wants to scrap that agreement in favor of joining a Eurasian economic union dominated by Russia - a policy backed by many Moldovans who have suffered financially from the goods embargo and broader economic downturn.
"He's got experience and knows that now is not the time to be turning a back to Russia, while she (Sandu) only looks to Europe," said pensioner Tatiana, declining to give her last name.
The banking scandal in Moldova involved the looting of $1 billion - the equivalent of an eighth of its economic output, highlighting the scale of corruption in Europe's poorest nation.
Moldovans believe members of the pro-EU elite were complicit.
"Local partisans of the West or EU have not only performed weakly but have performed perversely," said William Hill, a former head of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) mission in Moldova.
"And this has gone a long way to discrediting popular faith in the ideals of the West and the prescriptions of the EU or the U.S. as effective medicine for what ails their societies and their economies."
In a sign of the waning enthusiasm for the EU, just 30.9 percent of Moldovans would currently support joining as a full member, compared to 44 percent favoring the Eurasian Customs Union, a survey by Moldova's Institute for Public Policy showed in October.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-moldova-election-idUSKBN1380TN
Fuck me, 2 of our neighbours turned pro-Russia overnight. What a week Putin has had
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that's not overnight dude, unless you've been sleeping for months under a rock.
in Moldova at least, there was a first election tour in which the same pro-Russia candidate won by roughly the same percentage.
@Sent. you could add to, well lets call it the polish ambiguity, the fact that even if your government makes statements supporting an EU defense organization(the creation of), their MEPs in EU parliament vote against it. i also read about your Suwalki Gap and the thinking was that if Putin manages to flip Lithuania(which in itself is seen as a remarkable feat by everyone(means it's unlikely to happen)) you'd be in deep shit.
@Dan HH - i won't be replying to your other post because i'd have to literally re-teach you everything on the Syrian conflict; started by syrians ... give a fucking break.
overall men, you failed to forecast a Brexit, a Trump, countries going pro-Russia, are still in denial about the US-EU tug of war or Russo-Turkish rapprochement(...and others). how many red flags would you need before you realize that most of what you know or thought you knew is utter garbage and has nothing to do with realities on the ground.
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On November 14 2016 18:52 xM(Z wrote:
that's not overnight dude, unless you've been sleeping for months under a rock.
in Moldova at least, there was a first election tour in which the same pro-Russia candidate won by roughly the same percentage.
It's a figure of speech, of course both of those elections are the conclusions of a longer process. And first round winners losing the run-off is common as you well know.
On November 14 2016 18:52 xM(Z wrote:
overall men, you failed to forecast a Brexit, a Trump, countries going pro-Russia, are still in denial about the US-EU tug of war or Russo-Turkish rapprochement(...and others). how many red flags would you need before you realize that most of what you know or thought you knew is utter garbage and has nothing to do with realities on the ground.
And how do any of those events validate your worldview? Shortly before the US election you were claiming voting machines are rigged against Trump, among a myriad of other fringe conspiracy theories and predictions that fell flat, yet these things not happening only further fuel your smugness over us mere plebeians for some reason.
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A few pages back I summarized the upcoming German vacancies. Well... one vacancy has now been filled. As the CDU ended their resistance and now officially anounced their support, the new president of Germany from 2017 on, following Joachim Gaucks retirement, will be Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
He is our current foreign minister since 2013 and member of the SPD. Of course he will lay down his party membership as he becomes president though. He was already head of the chancellor office under Schröder and foreign minister during Merkels first term 2005-2009. He then raced for chancellor against Merkel in 2009 but ultimately lost.
The biggest question now will be, who will then fill the vacant spot as foreign minister between the election of president in spring and the general election in fall 2017. This has to be someone from the SPD, but candidates are rare.
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On November 14 2016 23:17 mahrgell wrote:
A few pages back I summarized the upcoming German vacancies. Well... one vacancy has now been filled. As the CDU ended their resistance and now officially anounced their support, the new president of Germany from 2017 on, following Joachim Gaucks retirement, will be Frank-Walter Steinmeier.
He is our current foreign minister since 2013 and member of the SPD. Of course he will lay down his party membership as he becomes president though. He was already head of the chancellor office under Schröder and foreign minister during Merkels first term 2005-2009. He then raced for chancellor against Merkel in 2009 but ultimately lost.
The biggest question now will be, who will then fill the vacant spot as foreign minister between the election of president in spring and the general election in fall 2017. This has to be someone from the SPD, but candidates are rare.
I'm sure Steinmeier is a good politician and surely has been a good choice for international diplomacy. But I cant help the fact that just thinking of him makes me yawn. I think getting rid of him this way is not just a big win for the SPD over Merkel in the sense that they have chosen the new president, but also a chance for them to find a stronger identity for the upcoming general election.
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EPT
